Appeal Process Question

quote:

Originally posted by Z-Dad:
Hypothetical situation. On a close play at the plate, the catcher drops the ball or misses the tag. But the runner missed the plate. I presume that in this case the Umpire needs to signal safe.

No. The PU makes no signal and awaits the play's outcome.

Catcher notices the runner missed plate. Can he immediately go up and tag him (does that count as the appeal?) or does he need to wait until prior to the next pitch to make the appeal?

He can tag immediately in the context of continuous action. Now runner is out.


Alternatively, suppose it was a play on the batter-runner at first. Runner beats throw but misses the base. Does umpire still signal safe on a clean catch?

Yes. The runner is safe pending an appeal.


Does umpire still signal safe on a dropped ball by 1B?

yes - how can you call him out on a dropped throw?


If 1B then tags the base what does the umpire do?


nothing, unless you are convinced that its an appeal, just 1B randomly or casually stepping on the bag does not count


If 1B goes and tags the batter-runner does the umpire signal out, do nothing, ask if 1B is appealing a missed base or runner turning to second?

if 1B makes an unmistakeable continous action appeal, like clearly runs over and tags the runner, runner is out. signal out. i would point and say 'on the appeal' so that everyone knows why you first signaled safe and then called him out on the tag.

you can always ask 1B also, never hurts to have him verbalize what hes doing

Thanks Lon, very detailed and concise. I believe you have stated that there is a clear difference in mechanics between a play at the plate and at first. But forgive me if I just want to make absolutely sure:

In the case of a dropped ball at the plate you say no signal but at first you signal safe. Why is there a difference? (Please envision in both cases the ball barely beats the runner to base and the runner runs or slides past the base without touching but thinks he did. In essence I see similar looking plays but at different bases.)

quote:

Originally posted by Z-Dad:
Thanks Lon, very detailed and concise. I believe you have stated that there is a clear difference in mechanics between a play at the plate and at first.

There is a difference, yes.

quote:

In the case of a dropped ball at the plate you say no signal but at first you signal safe. Why is there a difference? (Please envision in both cases the ball barely beats the runner to base and the runner runs or slides past the base without touching but thinks he did. In essence I see similar looking plays but at different bases.)

I will defer to piaa, MST, and the other true experts we have here for the definitive answer, but IMO it is at least partly because Home plate is similar to Second and Third and it treated the same (except when the runner leaves the vicinity of the Plate area). If a runner misses Second and the fielder misses the tag, the umpire also signals nothing until the matter is resolved by continuous action.

Also, remember that First is the only base that a batterrunner can overrun and return to/occupy without peril of a putout - therefore if he passes over First before the throw/tag, he is considered to have 'gained' First (whether he touched it or not) until/unless theres an appeal.

The difference isn't where it is but what type of play it is. On any base if it's a force and the runner misses the base then show safe, even at the plate.
If it's a tag play then you show nothing until somebody does something to complete the play. The OP asks about a dropped balled ball at the plate and runner misses. LonBlue answered it quite well. Once you have a play at the plate and a missed base a couple of things are going top happen.
First nobody realizes it and the runner goes in the dugout. If the defense doesn't appeal then the runner is safe. Next the runner misses and the sefense does notice. If the runner isn't trying to return and just going to the dugout, the catcher may tag him or just touch the plate and tell you what he is doing. If the runner is trying to return then the catcher must tag him. There needs not be a verbal here because it is obvious what is happening. The new rule in OBR is if the runner leaves the dirt around the plate the defense doesn't need to chase him. That is the mark between catching and just appealling the plate.
A most important thing to remember is NEVER point at the plate on scores. You see mnay youth umps pointing at the plate as the runner touches. The first time he doesn't touch then everybody knows there is a problem.
On the play at first the appeal is similar but the markers are different. If you have a BR step over the base and then the F3 catches the ball and touches the bag, show safe. If the BR runs down the linein a gear down routine then all the F3 has to do is touch the base and give a verbal appeal. If the runner turns quickly and scrambling back then he needs to be tagged.
Sorry for the long post.

quote:

A most important thing to remember is NEVER point at the plate on scores. You see mnay youth umps pointing at the plate as the runner touches. The first time he doesn't touch then everybody knows there is a problem.

THIS is a habit I struggle to break........I was taught by an old Sally League umpire and that was one of his mandates.....of course that went back to when he was communicating with the press box in his minor league days......

He wanted to see all runs accounted for......and for the reasons MST has stated its a bad idea......

quote:

Sorry for the long post

MST if you are apologizing for the lentgh of this post.....wait to see how much I should apologize for the post I made today in the ejection thread......

Good calls by MST and LONBLUE.....

On the play at first....

Runner is safe, pending an appeal.

Runner returns to first base after his overrun. Everyone in the park sees what happened and is screaming "He missed the base!" A reasonable coach (not likely in this instance) calls time and talks to you (as BU). Is this the correct method of conversation?

Skip: "Blue, I know the throw was late, but the runner never tagged the base."
BU: "You're right coach."
Skip: "So how can you call him safe?"
BU: "Because he passed the base before the throw."
Skip: "So you're calling him safe even though you just said you saw him miss the bag?"
BU: "That's the call."

Obviously you can't tell the coach he needs to appeal the play. But this is a situation where an ejection seems imminent.

The conversation should go:
Coach: Time.
Umpire grants the time time.
Coach: What do you have? I thought the runner missed the base but my fielder tagged the base after he passed it.
Umpire: That is correct. The BR stepped over the base, then the ball arrived and was caught by F3. The way the call is made is he is safe until you appeal. You didn't make one and the runner has returned so it is too late.
At this point the caoch may want to ask about how this can be. You again explain the correct procedure then tell him it's time to play. If he doesn't want to do that then ask him if he is going to protest. If all he wants to do is rant then walk away. Anything after that is an ejection. If he wants to protest then take it, note it and continue to play.

Then why is first base there?

Am I understanding/reading this correctly?......the BR fails to touch first base but appears to get past first base before the throw and he is safe pending an appeal?....Huh?

This is true at any base, it's just that first base is unigue in the fact that you can overrun it on a force. Anytime you pass a bse you are condisered as touching it unless you are appealed. It happens all the time but because the defense doesn't usually pay attention it doesn't get called. Runners step over bases a lot more than you think. Umpires are responsible for watching the touches of all bases and they get missed all the time.

quote:

Originally posted by LOW337:
Then why is first base there?

Am I understanding/reading this correctly?......the BR fails to touch first base but appears to get past first base before the throw and he is safe pending an appeal?....Huh?

what happens when R1 misses Second base on a First-to-Third run? Isn't he also considered to have touched Second base ("appears to get past...") pending an appeal?

A little confused on the post by MST. Does the defense have to make the appeal before the runner returns to base or before the next pitch?

If 1B did tag the bag but then the runner returned, wouldn't an appeal prior to next pitch be sufficient?

quote:

Originally posted by Z-Dad:
A little confused on the post by MST. Does the defense have to make the appeal before the runner returns to base or before the next pitch?

If the runner returns to the base safely, he has corrected his error. That's the same at ANY base.

The Pitcher hopefully isn't going to throw a pitch before the runner either gets back to First or an appeal is made.

quote:

If 1B did tag the bag but then the runner returned, wouldn't an appeal prior to next pitch be sufficient?

If he tags the bag inadvertently, thats not an appeal. He must either TAG the RUNNER with an *unmistakeable* appeal, or TAG the BASE with an *unmistakeable* appeal BEFORE the runner comes back and touches First.

clear?

If you are going to appeal a BR missing first you have to do it before he returns to touch first. At this point he has corrected his error, as already noted.
The thing to remember is it depends on what the BR is doing as to what type of appeal you can make.
If he runs by and is down the line making no effort to return then you can touch first and tell the BU you are appealing the miss. If he is trying to return, a scramble, then you have to tag him.
Hopefully this this help the confusion.

Thanks for the replies but forgive me if I still don't get it.

BR runs past first without touching the bag. 1B catches ball with foot on base after BR runs by. So defense has completed their part in the play and even if the BR returns to "fix" his error, the defense still tagged the base prior to BR touching, so a forceout occurred.

If I read what you say correctly, then it seems 1B should immediately appeal any and all safe calls at 1B as a miss (heck, 1B can't see the BR's foot) but I haven't seen that in MLB.

It very rarely happens in the real world. It gets discussed a lot but in every day baseball it is rare.
The only way this play is possible is if the BR beats the ball so the defense didn't complete their part of the equation. They didn't get the ball there in time. The BR madeit in time but didn't touch the base. At that point both have a portion of the plat left to complete. Whoever completes it first gets the call.

quote:

Originally posted by Z-Dad:
Thanks for the replies but forgive me if I still don't get it.

BR runs past first without touching the bag. 1B catches ball with foot on base after BR runs by. So defense has completed their part in the play and even if the BR returns to "fix" his error, the defense still tagged the base prior to BR touching, so a forceout occurred.

You still don't get it. This is not a forceout. Here the BU signals 'safe' pending developments (anticipating an appeal)..now one of three things happens:

1. F3 unmistakably signals to the BU that he's appealing the missed base and steps on 1B before the batterrunner returns - out.

2. F3 runs after the batterrunner and tags him before he can get back to 1B - out.

3. F3 doesnt notice the miss and batterrunner trots back to 1B - safe.


This 'appeal everything' makes no sense because darn near everyone in the park is watching this play, esp the defense's teammates (and coaches in the dugout) - if the batterrunner misses 1B, you can be sure everyone will be made aware of it.

You are really making a mountain out of molehill here. In the real world this is not common, and is quickly resolved.

quote:

Originally posted by LonBlue67:

quote:

Originally posted by LOW337:
Then why is first base there?

Am I understanding/reading this correctly?......the BR fails to touch first base but appears to get past first base before the throw and he is safe pending an appeal?....Huh?

what happens when R1 misses Second base on a First-to-Third run? Isn't he also considered to have touched Second base ("appears to get past...") pending an appeal?

Yes he is considered to have touched it. If the defense appeals properly then he would be out.