Are D1 programs more rigorous than other levels in baseball?

quote:

Originally posted by Vector:
I ask this based on some posts in another thread I did not want to derail with this question.

Several posters referred to D1 as as grueling along with a high academic load. While I certainly believe that as well, I am wondering if D-2 or D-3 programs are any less rigorous in a high academic college. Granted we are not talking about programs who are either at the bottom or only care if the players show up on time regardless of the level.
When I visited different schools interested in my son, I took the advice I had received here, and not only talked with the coaches, but also spoke with different players and/or their parents to get a feel. I really did not get the feeling that the kids in D-2 or D-3 had it any easier than those in D1 programs. Yet it almost seems as if that is the impression some posters are under based on their comments.

So I'd like to get the opinions of different posters in this thread as to whether they believe a D-1 program will be more demanding of their players than say a good D-2 or D-3 program.

Very interesting question and observation on other posts.

FWIW, 2013 has done visits at three competitive DIIIs in our region and the comment has always been, "just because we aren't a DI program doesn't mean we shouldn't train and have expectations like one." And their daily schedule supports that notion.

You cannot paint with a broad brush. It depends as much on the program as on the designation of level. Nothing ever prevents someone from working hard and demanding a lot of themselves.

That said, at the most highly competitive D1 programs, it is a job as much as anything. A fun job, but a job nonetheless. With that in mind, you be the judge.

The NESCAC (a collection of most of the top academic division 3 schools in the country) doesn't have organized fall ball. Having visited many of these schools, I would say that for some kids, it is just as rigorous as a D1 program. However, because the practices they go through are not mandatory, some kids will not work as hard as they would at a D1.

Any program in any level can be as rigorous as they want to be. There are DIII programs that are more rigorous than DII programs. There are Juco programs that are more rigorous than some DI programs.

One of the things that makes it a bit tougher on DI programs is the amount of travel. Also, there are some limitations at some DIII schools regarding fall practice. DIs on the other hand work very hard in the fall.

I think the most grueling of all is playing baseball in early spring at a northern school. There's a good reason why very few southern teams go north to play early spring games.

Truth is all the programs at any level know the harder they work the better they will be.

When I coached at a small college we worked year around. In the winter in addition to working out we had 3 hour baseball classes (no credit) three times a week. You don't play until you pass all the tests.

Typical PG: On point.

I think the travel is the big differentiator where DIII programs play 40 in season games, D1’s are 56 (I may be off a game or two) The distances are also greater so this can be a real burden on a player. However the top DIII programs are usually in their conference and regional tournaments so the top ranked DIII programs end up playing as many games as non-tournament D1’s.

As PG pointed out DIII’s have more limits on practice time in the fall, but they get around those with “captains” practices. Even with the workarounds IMO the top DIII’s are nowhere near the demands of the top D1’s. The top 50 D1 programs are all about winning. I have posted this many times before, other than Stanford you will find very few top 50 programs that players can take difficult science and engineering majors because of the on field demands.

I know my son’s highly ranked DIII program works their kids at levels at or above typical mid major D1 programs. The main differences are they have more flexibility on scheduling - so the kids are expected to get their work in on their own time more. However, many of the kids have more demanding majors, and are in a more selective school so the competition is fiercer in class so they may have more demands on the school side, so their overall time demand is as great as a top D1.

Make sure you do your homework in selecting a school and program so it matches you or your son’s capability and needs. Bottom line is no matter what level, a player is at playing baseball in college requires a dedication and commitment beyond what most high school players can even imagine. I am in awe of any player playing baseball in college regardless of the division level, conference, or national ranking; they are all a very select group and have to develop a discipline not many of their non athletic college peers have.

I am not sure if one is more rigorous than the other, but keep in mind that D1 has a longer season than the other divisions, which in itself makes it a bit more difficult to remain as rigourous as you started out. I would imagine that all programs that meet top 15-25 criteria in their divisions have outstanding programs because the expectations are higher, that would be on the field as well as in the classroom (to remain eligible).

I do believe that the reason some people feel the top D1 programs may be more rigourous is because the talent level you have to compete with and against prevents you from slacking off, if you want to keep your position. There is also a huge amount of pressure on coaches, players that are on teams that make playoffs and often expected to go to the CMWS or the WS in their division.

Having a player that attended a highly competitive top d1 program in the ACC, I can agree with jemaz that it was almost like having a full time job, plus 18 hours of class each week and study.

it is what the player allows it to be at any level----if the plaYER IS A WORKER AND "WANTS IT---- there are no concerns

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
Typical PG: On point.

I think the travel is the big differentiator where DIII programs play 40 in season games, D1’s are 56 (I may be off a game or two) The distances are also greater so this can be a real burden on a player.

I know my son’s highly ranked DIII program works their kids at levels at or above typical mid major D1 programs.

I agree with you and your props to PG.
His point about Fall ball can also play into it.
There are some mid D1's or even top D1's that don't travel that much(i.e. outside a tri-state area) during the season vs. others who seem to travel from coast to coast.

As to where your son goes, I visited San Antonio for several days and found a few of the pitchers who were not on the traveling roster working out by themselves. They had high praise for Trinity, though they seemed more on their own vs. having someone overlooking their workouts.
At USC they have a trainer associated with the program making sure the players are doing everything, so there is less opportunity to slack off if an individual lacked motivation.
Still I got the feeling Trinity players were in a very solid program regardless of it being D3. That is also true academically.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
it is what the player allows it to be at any level----if the plaYER IS A WORKER AND "WANTS IT---- there are no concerns

I don't disagree with that, and I suspect most wont.
My question relates more toward a program demanding XYZ from their players regardless of how motivated they are.
Also the travel and length of schedule like PG pointed out might feed into the notion that typical D1 might be more grueling/rigorous.

`

quote:

Originally posted by Vector:
I really did not get the feeling that the kids in D-2 or D-3 had it any easier than those in D1 programs.

I think at times it could be more difficult for D2-D3 programs.

Many top D1 programs in the country also have very rich football programs. This in turn means better facilities for all of their athletes. More equipment and more perks. New cleats, turf shoes, running shoes and gloves, hats, shirts, shorts every year. Better accomodations when traveling. Better training tables in the cafeterias. The academic centers for the athletes are spectacular. They have advisors that help them to take care of planning their schedules around their season and get them into classes when they are full. Their coaches have relationships with the best summer ball programs in the country.

They don't have to prepare the field before or after games.

Not so bad, I am not sure that I would really spend time worrying that they might have more demands placed on them. With all of the above and more, they should.

JMO.

quote:

You cannot paint with a broad brush. It depends as much on the program as on the designation of level. Nothing ever prevents someone from working hard and demanding a lot of themselves.

So true, my son played for three different college teams and for the most part I'd say it has more to do with the individual player then the coach. Having said that the coach gets to pick the players in his program. Every place my son went had "captain" practices and each coach had high expectations for the kids to work out on their own etc... At each program the "rigor rating" was set by the indidivual player.

My son played in the Big West and ACC, the ACC travel schedule was much more demanding then the Big West schedule which made it more diffcult/rigorous.

The best thing to do is ask the coach:
- daily schedule during fall practice
- daily schedule during spring season
- travel depart/return during spring away games
- what happens when a kid has a lab during practice/workout

The devil is in the details when you ask a question like that. I think you have to look at :

1) Program expectations
2) Competitiion: Non-conference and conference games
3) Academic rigor in your specific major
4) Travel (mid-week games and weekend games), and time away from classroom
5) Number of regular season games & post season
6) Competition for playing time
7) Coaches

When you add it all up, you have your answer.

quote:

Originally posted by fenwaysouth:
The devil is in the details when you ask a question like that. I think you have to look at :

1) Program expectations
2) Competitiion: Non-conference and conference games
3) Academic rigor in your specific major
4) Travel (mid-week games and weekend games), and time away from classroom
5) Number of regular season games & post season
6) Competition for playing time
7) Coaches

When you add it all up, you have your answer.

Good post, doesn't seem like you need to be a rocket scientist to figure it out.

IMO opinion the biggest difference is the academic side. I believe that most college coaches take what they learned while playing and apply much of it to their program. Practice, workouts, conditioning are probably comparable for most programs, at all levels, with serious committement from the coach and school.

When you add in an Ivy League or other high academic load, that to me is where the difference is. At a not so academically demanding D1 it is probably not any different than most D2, D3 or many JUOCs. So I think the rigor is more a product of academics than actual baseball time and energy.

I would agree 100% with that statement.

My son's first JUCO experience was at Daytona State. In the Fall the players were in the weight room, running, or treading water in a pool with a weight lifted over their head, at 6:30 AM every day. Then came "Hell Week", trying to winnow out the "non believers".

This coach took academics very seriously as well and expected each player to have a 3.0 or higher GPA. His program ranked as one of the highest in GPA among all NJCAA programs.

I would have to agree that the academic rigors of a quality D1 program is a great seperator, combined with in season travel responsibilities. Although, as TPM mentioned, these are somewhat offset by the Academic Tutoring available to Athletes at the larger universities.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I think the most grueling of all is playing baseball in early spring at a northern school.

That's an understatement. Bum, Jr.'s first appearannce at home was in 28 degree weather with snow flurries. The pitching coach had him shoot to the bullpen, barely warm up, only to get hammered by an Oklahoma team with metal bats. He told me later his fingers were numb, taking away any solid offspeed pitch.

The kids from the north are tough, weather-wise, but even in h.s. they waited until April. February games in college were insane.

Just glad he got through that phase of his career.