Yhere is another angle to this - in our area the rec teams play 10 games - 13 if you go to the championship. Virtually no practice time. The rec program just isnt cutting it.
deldad - I like your story about your older son. A lot of parents should take note of that given his success. But maybe his extraordinary talent was the primary key in the end? In any case, as a fan of staying a kid as long as you can and as a fan of local community baseball, I really like that story!
Our older one started at 13 (late 13) and I thought that was the point where he really took off and his skills accelerated very quickly from that point forward. The coaching was far better and the competition at that time was far, far better...there were only a couple/few teams like his in our area at that time and they were all very good. From his first travel team...out of about 20 players, something like 15 are playing college or pro ball now.
College/pro ball was NEVER the goal for us at that point...didn't become a goal until about 16...but I do firmly believe it helped him immensely to progress.
brod - While I would agree that some parents have that on their minds...I think instead the majority are in it at that age for 1) the experiences and hopefully good memories and 2) to get their sons ready for HS ball. I always preferred #1 as the primary reason for as Fungo says, heading out into the world with our town's best to see how we stack up with anytown's best. I count myself as very fortunate to have enough resources to enjoy the couple/few trips a year to watch my boys play baseball in a fun place. In our family, its just what we do for fun. A bunch of nutty people...we are.
Our older one started at 13 (late 13) and I thought that was the point where he really took off and his skills accelerated very quickly from that point forward. The coaching was far better and the competition at that time was far, far better...there were only a couple/few teams like his in our area at that time and they were all very good. From his first travel team...out of about 20 players, something like 15 are playing college or pro ball now.
College/pro ball was NEVER the goal for us at that point...didn't become a goal until about 16...but I do firmly believe it helped him immensely to progress.
quote:See many college coaches there recruiting 14 year olds?
brod - While I would agree that some parents have that on their minds...I think instead the majority are in it at that age for 1) the experiences and hopefully good memories and 2) to get their sons ready for HS ball. I always preferred #1 as the primary reason for as Fungo says, heading out into the world with our town's best to see how we stack up with anytown's best. I count myself as very fortunate to have enough resources to enjoy the couple/few trips a year to watch my boys play baseball in a fun place. In our family, its just what we do for fun. A bunch of nutty people...we are.
Have to agree with TheEH. After watching my older boy's team play, then watching my younger boy's team, I keep shaking my head thinking "was my older boy's team that bad?"
I also think it unwise to talk about a "dillution in talent" in reference to 14-year olds. A lot of these "stars" at 14 will be out of baseball at 17, and some of the "weaker" ones will be dominating. So I don't see weeding out talent or otherwise projecting talent at 14 to be the right thing to do.
I also think it unwise to talk about a "dillution in talent" in reference to 14-year olds. A lot of these "stars" at 14 will be out of baseball at 17, and some of the "weaker" ones will be dominating. So I don't see weeding out talent or otherwise projecting talent at 14 to be the right thing to do.
quote:That travel may involve across town, the next county, or other "day trips". At least that's my take.
I agree. We're seeing it in our are where many of the so called travel teams stay close to home and play other "close to home" travel teams. It's almost as if the rec teams have changed, the parents have bought uniforms, decided to spend a few bucks and travel a little. This also shows up in the obvious void of any talent at the community funded recreational level. With the ever changing face of youth baseball it is possible for the parent and player to be confused as to what level they are competing. I had a discussion with the parent of one of these close home travel teams a few weeks ago. He was beaming as he described their adventures and encounters with other nearby teams and compared them to the times we went through while our son played travel ball. It was almost as if he slapped me in the face when he said “Now I know what you went through with your son.” After the conversation ended I thought to myself ---- There is no comparison. That in no way makes what they are doing wrong but I can’t help but feel they may be mislead to believe where this will take them. I just don’t know.
Fungo
another thought. little league, babe ruth or rec. ball .seem to play so few league games and are geared towards all stars.this confused me,since 95% of the kids weren't playing baseball in the summer. so the 13 or so kids could play.who knows what talent has been lost because they stopped playing to early?
maybe if they played all summer there wouldn;t be a need for so many travel teams?
maybe if they played all summer there wouldn;t be a need for so many travel teams?
As for "shutting down" at this time of the year it all depends on where you are in the country.
Here in the Northeast our HS baseball starts when many others are half way thru their season or later--the kids in this region have Novemeber to March to condition
Here in the Northeast our HS baseball starts when many others are half way thru their season or later--the kids in this region have Novemeber to March to condition
To me, if the parent can afford it, what's the big deal how many travel teams there are? Free country - eh? Also, for the disadvantaged kid argument, there are always ways to raise money if necessary, car washes, selling candy bars, raffles, paper route, etc...
My son played rec ball and travel ball until the demands of travel ball would no longer allow being on a rec ball team. He did this for no other reason than he wanted to play - not because I pushed him or to get to the next level. He was constantly getting harranged about being on ever more "elite" teams as well but we stuck with our local town travel team which was basically a traveling all-star team selected from the local rec ball league.
Finally, people make comments. They say my son has experienced what your son has, or my son is on a better team than your son, or my son is just plain better than your son. My favorite expression is "We'll see." I don't believe people are misled. If they are living in a fantasy world, they'll find out someday and it is their lesson to learn.
I also liked this quote from Bum:
My son played rec ball and travel ball until the demands of travel ball would no longer allow being on a rec ball team. He did this for no other reason than he wanted to play - not because I pushed him or to get to the next level. He was constantly getting harranged about being on ever more "elite" teams as well but we stuck with our local town travel team which was basically a traveling all-star team selected from the local rec ball league.
Finally, people make comments. They say my son has experienced what your son has, or my son is on a better team than your son, or my son is just plain better than your son. My favorite expression is "We'll see." I don't believe people are misled. If they are living in a fantasy world, they'll find out someday and it is their lesson to learn.
I also liked this quote from Bum:
quote:I also think it unwise to talk about a "dillution in talent" in reference to 14-year olds. A lot of these "stars" at 14 will be out of baseball at 17, and some of the "weaker" ones will be dominating. So I don't see weeding out talent or otherwise projecting talent at 14 to be the right thing to do.
quote:Originally posted by brod:
Had a son on elite travel teams, and have been to that tournament two years ago - It was exactly as you described. Love the chance some kids have to play, BUT, shouldn't your players really be conditioning this time of year? The pitchers should be getting ready for the high school season, and the Thursday night to Sunday tournament format really detracts from any high school where grades are important. Frankly, I think the parents are a little nuts to drop $1,500 a weekend to please some travel ball guru dangling a place on a summer team (just like I was). The only conceivable reason to play now is for the recruited high school Senior or ELITE junior (PG top 1000 ranking) to be seen by college coaches. See many college coaches there recruiting 14 year olds?
Brod - It sounds like you have some issues with elite teams, some use the fall as an extended tryout for their summer team and may determine what team they would be on if there are multiple teams within the program. Good outings could be the difference between playing on the top team or not.
At under 14 the players are playing for the experience, competition, getting ready to go to the next level being tryout for their high school. I tried to get them in their best playing condition so when they are doing their first HS tryouts they are ahead of their peers.
The fall is an interesting time, some HS player look at the HS season being the end all which is ok and they are not playing, but for the college bound player, there are some very important HS age tournaments for recruiting, such as the AZ fall classic and the WWBA tournaments in FL, which had hundreds of coaches and scouts watching and evaluating players. This happens to be one of the best times when the college coaches can get out before their season starts, follow or finalize who they will offer for early signing, and the pro scouts can continue to evaluate who they may draft in June.
quote:Free country - eh?
CD
Well I'll take it for Free, But you guy's have to carry the outstanding Debt. EH
I do not think you can use a broad brush in talking about "travel teams" because at each age bracket things are different
The teams in Jupiter for this past weekends event are totally different than teams in the 14 Under classification as an example.
The teams in Jupiter for this past weekends event are totally different than teams in the 14 Under classification as an example.
CD I agree 100%.
The overall # of kids playing BB has declined dramatically. It is important to have a broad grass roots to develope players. I am alwats surprised at which players get to the next levels and some that don't.
The overall # of kids playing BB has declined dramatically. It is important to have a broad grass roots to develope players. I am alwats surprised at which players get to the next levels and some that don't.
Interesting topic.
My son will be heading into his 14u season. He started started "travel ball" in his 10u season. Here is how we got involved. Our city had its own recreation program not affiliated with any other organization. When he was little he was big for his age and generally played with an older age group because he fit in better there. He played machine pitch until he was 8. Our league still used machine pitch for 9-10 year olds which I did not feel met his needs. I asked the city rec director if he could play with the 11-12 year olds when he was 9 but was refused. (when I was a kid we played WBBA-Western Boys Baseball Assoc-and kids played together 9-12 so I didn't think it was an unreasonable request) We learned about a PONY league in the adjacent town so he played there at 9. It was fun but the league president was corrupt (later made the news being arrested for some misconduct that cost him his day job). We decided we were not interested in continuing in that league. Another dad who was also dissatisfied with that league and machine pitch in our own town decided to put a team together. Fortunately for us a very supportive sponsor was found and he has played for this team ever since. He has been called and asked to join other teams but he is loyal to this team that gave him this chance. In addition to this team he did play for one team that was formed for some tournament play that did not interfere with his regular team schedule. With that team he did play in the Las Vegas Fall Desert Classic in 2003 and the Triple Crown World Series in Steamboat in 2004. That was as an 11u. Our family has fond memories of those times. Of course going to Nevada and Colorado from Utah is not as big of burden for us as it is for those that travel cross country.
With his current team we did go to Cooperstown but while in New York we were also able to visit historical sites and events related to our church, visit a brother who lives in Albany and of course see some of the Big Apple. Last summer the team played in Omaha around College World Series time. That was a blast and he and I can say we went to the College World Series together. All in all these experiences, baseball and otherwise, have been valuable for our family.
My son will be heading into his 14u season. He started started "travel ball" in his 10u season. Here is how we got involved. Our city had its own recreation program not affiliated with any other organization. When he was little he was big for his age and generally played with an older age group because he fit in better there. He played machine pitch until he was 8. Our league still used machine pitch for 9-10 year olds which I did not feel met his needs. I asked the city rec director if he could play with the 11-12 year olds when he was 9 but was refused. (when I was a kid we played WBBA-Western Boys Baseball Assoc-and kids played together 9-12 so I didn't think it was an unreasonable request) We learned about a PONY league in the adjacent town so he played there at 9. It was fun but the league president was corrupt (later made the news being arrested for some misconduct that cost him his day job). We decided we were not interested in continuing in that league. Another dad who was also dissatisfied with that league and machine pitch in our own town decided to put a team together. Fortunately for us a very supportive sponsor was found and he has played for this team ever since. He has been called and asked to join other teams but he is loyal to this team that gave him this chance. In addition to this team he did play for one team that was formed for some tournament play that did not interfere with his regular team schedule. With that team he did play in the Las Vegas Fall Desert Classic in 2003 and the Triple Crown World Series in Steamboat in 2004. That was as an 11u. Our family has fond memories of those times. Of course going to Nevada and Colorado from Utah is not as big of burden for us as it is for those that travel cross country.
With his current team we did go to Cooperstown but while in New York we were also able to visit historical sites and events related to our church, visit a brother who lives in Albany and of course see some of the Big Apple. Last summer the team played in Omaha around College World Series time. That was a blast and he and I can say we went to the College World Series together. All in all these experiences, baseball and otherwise, have been valuable for our family.
It could just be there are too many "travel teams", or "travel ball players". Will it be the demise of Rec leagues? Quite possibly yes.
If you think back to your time in Rec leagues if any, most of the people running the show, the board of directors and the coaches, had kids who where generally.... I SAID GENERALLY not absolutly, but generally the better players, the athletes.
These people now go off and form their own teams to play travel ball at 8U, 9U, 10U etc, leaving those who just want to get their kid off the couch, away from the video/computer screen without a place to play. (not everyone is able to coach or run a league)
It is a sad day when we no longer have Rec leagues just to let kids play and be kids. Do you guys see less commitment in your areas to the local rec leagues? Less people stepping up and helping to run the programs? More elite "training" centers teaching agilities to 8 year olds,indoor batting cages, pitching mounds, and from there, the few "athletes" that are chosen to play travel ball?
Everything changes and evolves. Mine did play rec league, didn't play travel ball until High School, mainly with the High School team. Both played college ball.
I see nothing wrong with travel teams, I just hate that the mid level player at age 8, who may well become or have become the HS Star, never gets his chance to develope unless daddy starts a team.
If you think back to your time in Rec leagues if any, most of the people running the show, the board of directors and the coaches, had kids who where generally.... I SAID GENERALLY not absolutly, but generally the better players, the athletes.
These people now go off and form their own teams to play travel ball at 8U, 9U, 10U etc, leaving those who just want to get their kid off the couch, away from the video/computer screen without a place to play. (not everyone is able to coach or run a league)
It is a sad day when we no longer have Rec leagues just to let kids play and be kids. Do you guys see less commitment in your areas to the local rec leagues? Less people stepping up and helping to run the programs? More elite "training" centers teaching agilities to 8 year olds,indoor batting cages, pitching mounds, and from there, the few "athletes" that are chosen to play travel ball?
Everything changes and evolves. Mine did play rec league, didn't play travel ball until High School, mainly with the High School team. Both played college ball.
I see nothing wrong with travel teams, I just hate that the mid level player at age 8, who may well become or have become the HS Star, never gets his chance to develope unless daddy starts a team.
YES! 
02^04 Mom is very close to a point that deserves making.
There was a time when kids were cut even from Little League teams. You had to show minimum competency before you could play even at that level. At the very least, you had to be able to defend yourself and be safe on the field.
Now, if you pay, you are on the team. As a Little League coach I gave a disproportionate amount of my time and effort to kids whose own parents had never so much as played catch with them. These parents would drop their kids off and disappear for two hours, as if to say, "he's your problem for a few hours while I take care of some errands."
The decision by various rec league organizations, which apparently is a carefully considered and deliberate decision, was to take all comers. Folks had to know that this would push the more competitive players away. And it has.
The great thing about the proliferation of travel teams is that you can seek out competition that is exactly your level. In the middle school ages and younger, USSSA does a great job of offering different levels of competition to teams. If you have a level head, you can avoid playing teams that you'll destroy, or teams that'll destroy yours. (Of course, if you insist on playing "slaughter rule" games, you can do that, too.)
Our local Little League used to accomplish the same thing by moving better players up, while cutting struggling players to a lower level division. But parents of kids who got cut wouldn't stand for that, so ... well, you know how that turned out.
What all this means is that travel teams are filling a need that Little League and other rec ball organizations chose to ignore. That's why travel teams are sprouting like weeds at the same time your rec leagues are losing numbers.
In the end, this means more kids are playing the game than would otherwise. So in my book, it's a good thing on balance.
There was a time when kids were cut even from Little League teams. You had to show minimum competency before you could play even at that level. At the very least, you had to be able to defend yourself and be safe on the field.
Now, if you pay, you are on the team. As a Little League coach I gave a disproportionate amount of my time and effort to kids whose own parents had never so much as played catch with them. These parents would drop their kids off and disappear for two hours, as if to say, "he's your problem for a few hours while I take care of some errands."
The decision by various rec league organizations, which apparently is a carefully considered and deliberate decision, was to take all comers. Folks had to know that this would push the more competitive players away. And it has.
The great thing about the proliferation of travel teams is that you can seek out competition that is exactly your level. In the middle school ages and younger, USSSA does a great job of offering different levels of competition to teams. If you have a level head, you can avoid playing teams that you'll destroy, or teams that'll destroy yours. (Of course, if you insist on playing "slaughter rule" games, you can do that, too.)
Our local Little League used to accomplish the same thing by moving better players up, while cutting struggling players to a lower level division. But parents of kids who got cut wouldn't stand for that, so ... well, you know how that turned out.
What all this means is that travel teams are filling a need that Little League and other rec ball organizations chose to ignore. That's why travel teams are sprouting like weeds at the same time your rec leagues are losing numbers.
In the end, this means more kids are playing the game than would otherwise. So in my book, it's a good thing on balance.
In our area most talented ball players wouldn't be caught dead playing rec ball. Now they won't even play city AAA travel ball.
I remember when my son 1st went out for BB after a couple years in fast ball. He was the youngest player on the FB team and probably the worst. He registered for BB and all players indicate if they want to tryout for travel team. He tried out and was carded which meant they could call him up if they needed a player. We were not upset. When he found out he just looked at me and shrugged his shoulders. The 1st couple of weeks at rec machine pitch he started to look very good. That did not go unnoticed as the travel coaches attended a few of his games. A couple weeks later we got a call that they wanted him to play for them. We actyally said no that he would not abandon his team. The coaches then appruached the minor ball organization and got permission for him to play both levels. We ran around like crazy making all the games and practices, often changing from one uniform to another in the back of the van.
When he played rec there were 10 rookie teams and they had to add an 11th because there were so many players. Now 10 years later they can't fill 5 teams. I just read in the local rag that they are in serious danger of folding. They can't get players and coaches. mean while the elite teams have prospered. The Ontario Baseball failed to recognize the demand for better coaching and better travel competition. They chose to ignore elite ball and prohibit their players from playing for them. Our provincial team broke away from OBA and that was a disaster for both organizations.
Now the OBA has stated to cooperate with the elite teams and allow their players to play for the province. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
I think it is unwise to not create the opportunity for all ball players to have a chance to play and develop. Many of my son's friends play rec junior and senior ball, Some of them were great players but did not want to play US college or travel ball. The rec ball has had to adapt to the decline in registration and actoally play against team within a 30 mile radius.
It would be a shame to see this ball dissappear. Not everyone wants to play college ball.
I remember when my son 1st went out for BB after a couple years in fast ball. He was the youngest player on the FB team and probably the worst. He registered for BB and all players indicate if they want to tryout for travel team. He tried out and was carded which meant they could call him up if they needed a player. We were not upset. When he found out he just looked at me and shrugged his shoulders. The 1st couple of weeks at rec machine pitch he started to look very good. That did not go unnoticed as the travel coaches attended a few of his games. A couple weeks later we got a call that they wanted him to play for them. We actyally said no that he would not abandon his team. The coaches then appruached the minor ball organization and got permission for him to play both levels. We ran around like crazy making all the games and practices, often changing from one uniform to another in the back of the van.
When he played rec there were 10 rookie teams and they had to add an 11th because there were so many players. Now 10 years later they can't fill 5 teams. I just read in the local rag that they are in serious danger of folding. They can't get players and coaches. mean while the elite teams have prospered. The Ontario Baseball failed to recognize the demand for better coaching and better travel competition. They chose to ignore elite ball and prohibit their players from playing for them. Our provincial team broke away from OBA and that was a disaster for both organizations.
Now the OBA has stated to cooperate with the elite teams and allow their players to play for the province. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
I think it is unwise to not create the opportunity for all ball players to have a chance to play and develop. Many of my son's friends play rec junior and senior ball, Some of them were great players but did not want to play US college or travel ball. The rec ball has had to adapt to the decline in registration and actoally play against team within a 30 mile radius.
It would be a shame to see this ball dissappear. Not everyone wants to play college ball.
A parent cornered me over the summer and was lamenting how his son got only so many innings on his "traveling elite or whatever name he called it
team.. the theme was I paid x amount of dollars etc etc etc.
team.. the theme was I paid x amount of dollars etc etc etc.
Hi All. This is my first post here.
A lot of good points were made already so I'll just tell it like it is here.
"Here" we have Little League which goes up to about 16 years old. The league takes all comers and I'd coached there for years.The league always goes 2 and out in the Williamsport Tourney regardless of age group. Now coaches are obliged to rate each player on a scale of 1 to 5 based on skill level and then the teams are chosen randomly in such a way so that each team has the same numerical skill value. Sounds fair but in reality some teams end up stacked and others are horrible. Why? Because the dads who coach all see their sons as 5s and you have to be a 5 to make the All Star Team so the player ratings are already corrupted before the first pitch is thrown. The members of the Board decide the makeups of the teams behind closed doors and it's plain as day that they've circumvented the spirit of the numerical value system in order to have their guys play for them or to have certain kids stay together.Sometimes it's a good decision for instance with troubled families or situations where kids need rides and supervision from a neighbor or cousin or whatever. But those kind of good intentions morphed into who you knew decided where you played.
The members of the board also decide who makes the all star williamsport team and frequently override the selections of the coaches and manager. Been there done that. Been 2 and out.
The regular season games were a mish mosh of good kids , bad players, disinterested parents or worse parents who thought their kids were stars and really bad baseball all around. The sad part was that decent players were starting to play down to the level of the least talented players.
So the wind up is the level of competition and the level of play "here" was very bad and not conducive to the development of any of these kids. Matter of fact they were losing interest and getting discouraged. Not a good thing.
So we started a team of our own. All local kids . No shopping for elite players and no delusions of granduer. Just the kids who loved to play and wanted to work at it. We plugged into a good organization and signed up to play 14U in the lowest level division.We only travelled 25 miles max and basically played other town teams. We got spanked repeatedly I think we went 1 and 7 last fall when we started.
They worked hard in the off season and went 6 and 4 the spring 14 and 5 in the summer and we just finished at 7 and 3 for this fall. They've gotten good. They've gotten competitive, They've become good friends, And they're dying to move up to a tougher division. So it's all good.
Bottom line is if the local LL or Rec League isn't getting it done .........and you want to keep playing ball you actually may have to do it yourself. But it's worth it
A lot of good points were made already so I'll just tell it like it is here.
"Here" we have Little League which goes up to about 16 years old. The league takes all comers and I'd coached there for years.The league always goes 2 and out in the Williamsport Tourney regardless of age group. Now coaches are obliged to rate each player on a scale of 1 to 5 based on skill level and then the teams are chosen randomly in such a way so that each team has the same numerical skill value. Sounds fair but in reality some teams end up stacked and others are horrible. Why? Because the dads who coach all see their sons as 5s and you have to be a 5 to make the All Star Team so the player ratings are already corrupted before the first pitch is thrown. The members of the Board decide the makeups of the teams behind closed doors and it's plain as day that they've circumvented the spirit of the numerical value system in order to have their guys play for them or to have certain kids stay together.Sometimes it's a good decision for instance with troubled families or situations where kids need rides and supervision from a neighbor or cousin or whatever. But those kind of good intentions morphed into who you knew decided where you played.
The members of the board also decide who makes the all star williamsport team and frequently override the selections of the coaches and manager. Been there done that. Been 2 and out.
The regular season games were a mish mosh of good kids , bad players, disinterested parents or worse parents who thought their kids were stars and really bad baseball all around. The sad part was that decent players were starting to play down to the level of the least talented players.
So the wind up is the level of competition and the level of play "here" was very bad and not conducive to the development of any of these kids. Matter of fact they were losing interest and getting discouraged. Not a good thing.
So we started a team of our own. All local kids . No shopping for elite players and no delusions of granduer. Just the kids who loved to play and wanted to work at it. We plugged into a good organization and signed up to play 14U in the lowest level division.We only travelled 25 miles max and basically played other town teams. We got spanked repeatedly I think we went 1 and 7 last fall when we started.
They worked hard in the off season and went 6 and 4 the spring 14 and 5 in the summer and we just finished at 7 and 3 for this fall. They've gotten good. They've gotten competitive, They've become good friends, And they're dying to move up to a tougher division. So it's all good.
Bottom line is if the local LL or Rec League isn't getting it done .........and you want to keep playing ball you actually may have to do it yourself. But it's worth it
Ned,
You aren't suggesting that politics exist in youth baseball?
Seriously, welcome to the hsbbweb. I think you made a reasoned decision given the circumstances.
If times are a changin with respect to rec versus travel, that does not have to be a bad thing. I guess some are concerned that the demand to watch baseball may diminish in the future if most kids do not have some type of youth baseball experience.
You aren't suggesting that politics exist in youth baseball?
Seriously, welcome to the hsbbweb. I think you made a reasoned decision given the circumstances.
If times are a changin with respect to rec versus travel, that does not have to be a bad thing. I guess some are concerned that the demand to watch baseball may diminish in the future if most kids do not have some type of youth baseball experience.
Ned38
Great first post NED.
And welcome to the HSBBW.
Some would call that daddy ball, I call it Wanting to play baseball.
Now if you can find and old coach without it being a dad.
It would be better.EH
quote:Bottom line is if the local LL or Rec League isn't getting it done .........and you want to keep playing ball you actually may have to do it yourself. But it's worth it
Great first post NED.
And welcome to the HSBBW.
Some would call that daddy ball, I call it Wanting to play baseball.
Now if you can find and old coach without it being a dad.
It would be better.EH
quote:Originally posted by theEH:
Ned38quote:Bottom line is if the local LL or Rec League isn't getting it done .........and you want to keep playing ball you actually may have to do it yourself. But it's worth it
Great first post NED.
And welcome to the HSBBW.
Some would call that daddy ball, I call it Wanting to play baseball.
Now if you can find and old coach without it being a dad.
It would be better.EH
Thanks .
Yeah We'd love to find an old coach who isn't one of us dads.It's amazing how little we know LOL
The biggest problem with rec ball is the quality of instruction. Practice is where players are made, and disorganized practices run by dads with kids on the team are a problem.. not all, but most.
During my last year coaching rec ball my team was actually BANNED from the league playoffs.. not because we broke the rules but because the other coaches complained that the players I recruited were "too good".. the other rec coaches threatened to walk out rather than play in playoffs! As for them, let 'em fold.
During my last year coaching rec ball my team was actually BANNED from the league playoffs.. not because we broke the rules but because the other coaches complained that the players I recruited were "too good".. the other rec coaches threatened to walk out rather than play in playoffs! As for them, let 'em fold.
quote:not because we broke the rules but because the other coaches complained that the players I recruited were "too good" ------------- As for them, let 'em fold.
Bum,
Rec coaches aren't allowed to recruit players and stack their teams around here. That would destroy the whole purpose of rec baseball. Players are drafted by the coaches in a draft meeting to provide a level playing field for all the players. Recreational baseball is as the name implies --- recreational. The "problem" you have with rec ball is it doesn't fit your needs. Move on. I personally don't see a "problem" with the way recreational baseball is run ---- it is just much different than competitive baseball. Yes we moved on from rec ball very early but instead of wanting them to fold ---- I wanted them to succeed --- and still do. They provide a needed service to the young (and not so good) ballplayers.
Fungo
quote:Thanks .
Yeah We'd love to find an old coach who isn't one of us dads.It's amazing how little we know LOL
It's not even really about how much you know.
It's about cutting the string's and allowing your player to develop without looking over his shoulder at dad to see if he did it right. Are using dad as a crutch.
If that make's since.
Someone here posted once,
That one day your Player will look at you and say.
I know more about baseball than you do.
EH
Fungo, too many assumptions for you to tell me to move on.. if I wanted a tongue lashing I'd call up my old high school sweetie. 
I had no intention of coaching that year (retired). I walked into the league office to register my younger boy and they asked me to coach--they were one team short of the minimum required by the main organization, so I did. They didn't have enough players, so I got them, too. Money paid to the league, not me. Then, to add insult to injury, since I guess I did too good a job of getting players, they cancelled my season and I have yet to get a refund of my kid's fee. I have "moved on" but I was only adding context to why rec ball is dying. In my opinion the problem is parents and dad-coaches that discourage or God forbid hurt little Johnny's feelings if they get beat.
This particular rec league is dying, and it's dying because they DO NOT fill the needs of current players. I DID NOT say I wanted them to fold. I said let 'em fold. I wish them success, I really do, but if they cannot put out a product that satisfies the need of the kids, and apparently they don't because their numbers have dropped 75% in 3 years, well supply and demand, someone else will step-up with a better product.. already it's happening here, where Little League has arrived and has cornered the market from this poorly run rec league. And that's good, because it provides better baseball for the kids. OK. Enough said. Tongue-in-cheek now.
I had no intention of coaching that year (retired). I walked into the league office to register my younger boy and they asked me to coach--they were one team short of the minimum required by the main organization, so I did. They didn't have enough players, so I got them, too. Money paid to the league, not me. Then, to add insult to injury, since I guess I did too good a job of getting players, they cancelled my season and I have yet to get a refund of my kid's fee. I have "moved on" but I was only adding context to why rec ball is dying. In my opinion the problem is parents and dad-coaches that discourage or God forbid hurt little Johnny's feelings if they get beat.
This particular rec league is dying, and it's dying because they DO NOT fill the needs of current players. I DID NOT say I wanted them to fold. I said let 'em fold. I wish them success, I really do, but if they cannot put out a product that satisfies the need of the kids, and apparently they don't because their numbers have dropped 75% in 3 years, well supply and demand, someone else will step-up with a better product.. already it's happening here, where Little League has arrived and has cornered the market from this poorly run rec league. And that's good, because it provides better baseball for the kids. OK. Enough said. Tongue-in-cheek now.
quote:Yeah We'd love to find an old coach who isn't one of us dads.It's amazing how little we know LOL
OK, so the use of the term "daddy-ball" touched a few nerves I see as I read through this thread. It does sound a little demeaning - doesn't it?
But its out there and its real. You've all seen it, of course you have! That doesn't mean YOU are guilty of it...even if you do coach your own kids. I would say in rec. ball, quite often the very best coaches are the "daddys" of the very best players.
I coached all 4 of my sons. I think I know a little about baseball, but certainly not as much as others. But I DO KNOW that I (thats me!) cannot coach my own teenage sons effectively, within the context of a team, in a highly competitive situation. I am too emotional, they are trying to break loose as young adults, and it is not fair for my sons to play for me under those conditions. I can coach 1st base...I can sit on the bench and whisper suggestions to someone else, but I simply cannot be the head guy. I am too explosive with my own kids. I've seen far too many other "daddys" who are also too explosive themselves but don't seem to recognize that fact.
We've all seen the "daddys" who are too determined to play their kids too much. Quite a few play their own sons in the wrong position or in the wrong spot in the batting order. Still others form a "travel team" just to have a place for their son, who might not be good enough to make the 'real" travel team (that was the point of my original comment by the way).
All of these (us) "daddys" are trying to the best for our sons because we love them very much. Our cause and our intentions are noble!
Yes, yes, yes...there are certainly exceptions. I suspect bbscout, PGStaff, Fungo and a number of other posters on here can and do and did handle this very well. But I simply cannot...not in the dugout. I still talk to my sons about their pitching mechanics or their pitch selection or their batting stance or their situational decisions...but I do it away from the field and we 'discuss' it. I can be reasonable there and I can listen to my sons a lot better, I can even learn from my sons when I listen...and together my sons and I can get to a better place for both of us.
So lets not get too offended. None of my sons every asked me to get out of the dugout...I tried to get out before it was too late...my decision! I know what I am in certain situations. That doesn't make you guilty yourself, but I have rarely seen a father who can effectively coach his son at a high level. There was a pretty visible case of this at a high profile college in the last year. It doesn't make anyone a bad guy. Its just the way it is often-times with us daddys.
justbaseball,
Very diplomatic, I'm liking it!
I think maybe that's why rec ball is suffering.. because invariably they are coached by a parent with a kid on the team. And you're right, it skews the line-up, playing time, etc.
I was cognizant of this when I coached. In fact, I probably over-compensated for this tendency and pulled my own son out of the lineup too much!
My older boy is now joining a super-select team being formed. Practices start this weekend. They are cherry-picking the best 2008 players (and some '09s) in the city. No dads coaching.. all college guys, former pros, etc.
Very diplomatic, I'm liking it!
I think maybe that's why rec ball is suffering.. because invariably they are coached by a parent with a kid on the team. And you're right, it skews the line-up, playing time, etc.
I was cognizant of this when I coached. In fact, I probably over-compensated for this tendency and pulled my own son out of the lineup too much!
My older boy is now joining a super-select team being formed. Practices start this weekend. They are cherry-picking the best 2008 players (and some '09s) in the city. No dads coaching.. all college guys, former pros, etc.
JBB,
daddy's have there place, Just not in the dugout of there own player.
I'd love to coach now, if I could find the time.
Even in the bleacher's US daddy's can be annoying.LOL
daddy's have there place, Just not in the dugout of there own player.
I'd love to coach now, if I could find the time.
Even in the bleacher's US daddy's can be annoying.LOL
quote:daddy's have there place, Just not in the dugout of there own player
I have mixed feelings about this but the reality of the situation is somebody has to do it.
quote:but the reality of the situation is somebody has to do it.
Will that is a good point. The reality is there aren't a lot of retired coaches out there looking to coach youth rec leagues. A dad on the team usually takes the role since they have the incentive to be the coach.
My experience in the lower ranks was mixed and often not pleasant. One of my son's travel coach's had a son who was a year older and played a different position so there was no conflict. Plus, that coach thought highly of my son. Since he was a year older, my son would have that coach every other year for several years and things were fine.
On the off years, another dad took over who thought his kid was the ss and 3-hole hitter. Thus, during those years, my son moved over to second base. It bugged the cra-p out of me but I felt what the heck, he is still playing. It tuurned out to be a blessing because my son learned how to be versitile which has served him well in hs and in college. When we got to 9th grade, my son played every day in centerfield and the other dad's son never played other than a few at bats. The following year my son moved to 3rd base and then finished his hs career the last two years as their ss. The cream eventually rises to the top. That other kid who automatically got to play ss and bat #3 every other year saw his career end after 9th grade.
At the higher levels, fathers who coach their sons may be doing them a huge disservice imho. When you remove competitive pressures from a ball player, you may not be seeing the optimum development or performance in that player. It is also a conflict of interest because you may have some players on the team actually wondering if the player earned his spot on the merits.
I recall the college player justbb speaks of and that player did not handle it well when it was suggested by the head coach his performance needed to improve. It may have led to the demise of both the player and the assistant coach (his dad) at the university. My son's college coach sent his son specifically to another university to avoid the conflict and the appearance of impropriety.
We seem to speak of the negative connotations of "Daddyball" but it can work the other way also. This was not travel ball, but it was baseball from the LL level through Legion. My son never had a problem with me coaching and actually thought it was better to hear my issues right off the bat rather than at home later 
. He also knew that he would be used as an example, good and bad. He was the best player on the team but he did bat last and play RF at times, he did run "poles" if he was out of line, and he was always asked to warm up with one one the worse players instead of a friend. But the key to the situation was that every other player and parent knew from the "get-go" that there were no favorites. He was the team barometer and he had no problem with it because that was the approach he wanted to begin with.
. He also knew that he would be used as an example, good and bad. He was the best player on the team but he did bat last and play RF at times, he did run "poles" if he was out of line, and he was always asked to warm up with one one the worse players instead of a friend. But the key to the situation was that every other player and parent knew from the "get-go" that there were no favorites. He was the team barometer and he had no problem with it because that was the approach he wanted to begin with.quote:We seem to speak of the negative connotations of "Daddyball" but it can work the the other way also.
rz1 - I agree completely. There is just much more drama in telling the negative stories
Seriously, Dad coaches can go the other way and frankly be TOO HARD on their sons. Your approach sounds like a good one. Again, I think Will made a good point. Most of the candidates for the coaching positions are going to come from the pool of Dads who also have sons on the team.
I'll take a "daddyball" anyday over some anonyomous egghead doing his public service trying to make the world a better place. Coaching youth sports is very high on the list of "charitable duties". While I appauld their enthusiasm, PC coaching should be restricted to the sokker field.
quote:Originally posted by justbaseball:
So I am wondering...in the race to upgrade our kids' playing skills, are too many reaching well above their ability-level? Has the pool of talent become too diluted with too many teams?
One point I haven't seen addressed yet is that I think at the younger ages (mine will be a 14u this coming spring) they can be VERY inconsistent. He's played on some pretty darn good teams but there have been games where they looked absolutely putrid. Maybe some of the teams you saw were just having a bad game/weekend?
Another thought....Since it's Fall season, how serious is it being taken? This is the first Fall in a while my son hasn't played but we've always used it as a more relaxed, getting reps, learning environment. We've also picked up other players to fill out the roster so it wasn't really our team. Maybe that was the case?
Beezer - Those are good questions.
1. I really don't look at results that much in making my earlier comments. I understand your point. I was referring more the quality and athleticism of the players. Quick arms, bat control and bat speed, good hitting mechanics, defensive skills, baseball know-how, speed, etc... I didn't see much of that.
2. This particular tournament has usually been a pretty good one. And at the top end, it was again. Teams travel from all over the West to get there...and no doubt there were some VERY high quality teams (e.g. NorCal) with some VERY high quality players. But there were more very weak teams than NorCal-type teams there. That was disappointing to me since I saw a much stronger field 6 years ago.
1. I really don't look at results that much in making my earlier comments. I understand your point. I was referring more the quality and athleticism of the players. Quick arms, bat control and bat speed, good hitting mechanics, defensive skills, baseball know-how, speed, etc... I didn't see much of that.
2. This particular tournament has usually been a pretty good one. And at the top end, it was again. Teams travel from all over the West to get there...and no doubt there were some VERY high quality teams (e.g. NorCal) with some VERY high quality players. But there were more very weak teams than NorCal-type teams there. That was disappointing to me since I saw a much stronger field 6 years ago.
JBB - I think we need a "HSBBW 14u Select Team"
Now wouldn't THAT be cool! I like it!
JB
I think the general overall consensus is that the overall talent pool the last two years has not been as strong as previously.( we are talking '06 and '07 classes )
I put players in three levels---the studs, the above average player and the average player---all of whom can play baseball at some college level--the "stud" group is still pretty solid---the above average group has gotten smaller in number and the average player group has expanded in number----looking ahead to the '08 and '09 class I think the above average group will expand
I think the general overall consensus is that the overall talent pool the last two years has not been as strong as previously.( we are talking '06 and '07 classes )
I put players in three levels---the studs, the above average player and the average player---all of whom can play baseball at some college level--the "stud" group is still pretty solid---the above average group has gotten smaller in number and the average player group has expanded in number----looking ahead to the '08 and '09 class I think the above average group will expand
quote:Originally posted by justbaseball:
Now wouldn't THAT be cool! I like it!
See the Pre-HS thread.
A couple other thoughts on-topic....
What about the geographical differences? Maybe some of the lesser teams were from areas that just aren't as good or deep as the Cali boys? Look at the Elite 24 scores. Those were supposedly the top teams so you'd think the scores would be closer. But instead, there were quite a few 12-2, 10-2, 13-1, 15-1 scores. Shoot there was even a 17-4, 19-3, 16-7 and 20-11 score.
TR,
Not Being involved as heavily in baseball in the year's past,
And not having seen the talent from year's ago, I have to take your word for it TR.
Could you are someone else explain what they don't see in the classes of 06/07.
Is it hitting ability?
Pitching?
Defense?
Overall size of the player's?
Speed?
The number of Talented player's?
If there wasn't any talent in the 06 class, Why did the MLB still draft the same number of draftee's as year's past??
quote:I think the general overall consensus is that the overall talent pool the last two years has not been as strong as previously.( we are talking '06 and '07 classes )
Not Being involved as heavily in baseball in the year's past,
And not having seen the talent from year's ago, I have to take your word for it TR.
Could you are someone else explain what they don't see in the classes of 06/07.
Is it hitting ability?
Pitching?
Defense?
Overall size of the player's?
Speed?
The number of Talented player's?
If there wasn't any talent in the 06 class, Why did the MLB still draft the same number of draftee's as year's past??