Are Travel Teams Bad for the health of pitchers

DRIVEL

Who and where were the scouts you note--
you are saying the pitcher was in 60 plus games--- how many did he pitch in and what was the spacing between the games

Good coaches on good travel teams do not wear out their pitchers and the scouts know that for a fact

Drivel I will say this agin-- you are very dangerous because you spew info that is totally incorrect---

TR as usual
you talk about stuff you know nothing about. What college did you coach for?
What MLB team have you scouted for?????
What minor league team have you coached for? What NCAA summer League have you coached in?
Have you ever worked for in sports medicine clinics?
ANSWER: None to all. People should listen to you why exactly, what are your qualification? and why have not all these college and MLB teams hired you so far

Ask any college coach and MLB scouts about the high rate of TJ surgeries among HS players. Ten years ago, they did not have any where the rate of TJ surgeries any where, esp amoung HS players and even worse pre hs players.

AVG High school players plays 30 HS games, 50-60 summer league games and then 15-20 fall league games. That is 80-100 games to a 15-18 year player who is not physcially or mentally mature to handle that kinda schedule.

One college coach over the weekend, was trying to get a player who already verballed to his college to stop playing fall ball. He had already played 90 games already plus several HS Showcases and was risking injury at this point.
The college coach felt the player was risking injury and needed rest but keep playing because a travel team coach wanted him to play for him.



TR

What exactly is the point of travel ball for an individual player to win what ever championship or to receive a college scholarship?



Burnout
http://eteamz.active.com/baseball/instruction/tips/tip.cfm/2059/

I have no interest in getting involved in an arguement, but there are two very legitimate reasons to play. Of course, there are reasons to protect and rest the arm as well.

The two reasons

1. Love of the game
Which is a vital ingredient in maximizing potential.

2. To improve
Which is the most important reason.

Dibs, for what it's worth, I have worked in professional and college baseball.

In college baseball you start practicing in January, play the season, play in the summer, play in the fall. Usually take time off, but gain strength in November/December.

In Pro ball, you work out in the off season, go to spring training, play a grueling season, some then go to instructional, others go to fall and winter leagues. Some take the off season off, some don't!

So whether it is right or wrong, there is a long history of "over doing it". While over doing it might risk injury, it also increases the chance to get better!

The place that, per capita, produces more Major League players than anywhere in the world plays year around! They don't stop to rest, they just keep playing to get better. Agree or not, it's kind of hard to argue with the results in the Dominican Republic!

Drivel is probably referring to the AFLAC game where a few of the pitchers were throwing at lower velocities than they had shown previously. There were article(s) written saying that some scouts thought it might be due to tired arms with the AFLAC game coming right after the HS post season and other showcases. I'm not sure, but the AFLAC game may have been soon after the Area Code games. I don't think any of the pitchers in the AFLAC game lost college scholarships as a result and the scouts will look at them again after they've had a chance to rest their arms.

PG,
There are a lot of factors that may go into the Dominican players results. A lot of them with strong arms may injure them and be weeded out leaving only the ones with naturally durable arms to look at. Also, so many of them probably play relative to the overall population that it throws off the percentages.

For any given player one has to weigh the advantages of throwing more against the risk of injury and each player has to decide just how far to go.

DRIVEL

What are your credentials other than a web site that you dont pay for?

I never claimed any of what you post--BUT--I am allowed on all college campuses and I dont dream up things as you do-- I also like your profile--"see my lawyer"--LOL--what are you hiding?

As for travel teams there are many purposes and trophies are not the driving force behind most of them--- I cannot speak for other programs but we have been on the road since mid August and only two of the events were for "hardware" but all were in front of college and pro scouts- We play top competition to improve our players game and skills and their knowledge of the game--we are forever teaching the little things and striving to make our players better understand the little things about the great game of baseball.

Kids with TJ in HS usually had the problem begin in LL not in HS so why blame the HS coach.

ANDY MAY--- state your qualifications and your references--- nobody has ever seen them--they for sure are not on your profile or your "free" website

Are you an agent?
Do you run a showcase?
Are you affiliated with any showcases?/
Do you run polls which are innocuous and of no meaning?

Curious minds want to know !!!!

It really gets tiring, for me at least, to see you lead people astray with your erroneous information--yea I will get blasted again by the powers to be on this site for being open and upfront and not politically correct in this post but I really do not care-- ANDY MAY you are a scam and know nothing about anything other than spending your time digging up newspaper articles and linking to them or in many cases stealing the info and posting it as your own. Do you ever have any original ideas or thoughts?

Andy ( DRIVEL) let the people judge who and what they want to read and accept--I am confident in what I do and I don't need a college library computer to post as you have been known to do ( perhaps you still do)

As for travel teams I can only speak for ourselves and what we do--since August we have been on the road nearly every weekend and only two of the events were for "hardware" but all were in front of college and pro scouts, many of whom called us before the event to chat about our players prior to seeing them in action--if that is a sin then we are guilty and proud to be so-- we are forever teaching in the dugout and on the field during the games as we strive to make our players better and to have them understand the finer aspects game--it is called fine tuning--and yes we strive to get our kids college situations that are good for the player and the family financial situations. I wont use the word "scholarship" because in many cases the academic awards and grants are worth more than than a baseball scholarship.


DRIVEL --there is a real world out there-- you should visit it sometime

CADad,

The gun readings that showed up on FOX were way off. I was in the TV booth when the announcers noticed a 80 something reading on Latos in the first inning. It sure didn't look like 80 somthing so I called down to our scouts. It was 94 mph!

This went on the entire game and those scouts that didn't brave the heat could have been mislead.

Here are the actual top gun reading for each pitcher in the Aflac Game. According to the Stalkers we used. There were many that showed up in the mid 80s on TV that were actually in the low 90s.

Latos - 94
Walden, J - 93
Betances - 95
Miller - 89
Willems - 94
Hammack - 88
Kiker - 94
Tillman - 94
Rasmus - 94
Jenkins - 89
Walden, C. - 91
Anderson - 92
Sullivan - 87
Jeffress - 95
Drabek - 96

While there are some that have thrown better in the past, there were some that were better at the Aflac Game.

PG,
Thanks for the straight scoop! Looks like some articles were written without checking their sources, although I can't really blame them. We all tend to rely on technology a bit too much.

BTW, How did Stoffel look in the other portion? His HS team could be pretty impressive this coming season with him and Stock throwing for them. Rappoport will be playing for another team in the league.

CADad,

Stoffel was outstanding just like he has been all summer. He threw 90-93 and works very fast. He has created a ton of interest since his June showing at Turner Field in Atlanta.

I really like Rapoport, good tough kid with outstanding tools. Plays hard I hear he is a big football star running back.

Robert Stock is a very good player with an amazing arm. I think we will see Stoffel and Stock next month in Jupiter. I understand Stoffel is with the Atlanta Braves Team and Stock is with the Ohio Warhawks. They are two of the top teams in the tournament.

That must be a real good high school team and a very good league.

Rapoport suffered a leg injury playing football last week and may be out for the football season but should certainly be back in time for baseball. They were worried about a break but I haven't seen any reports from after he saw a doctor so I'm not sure what the situation is. I know we had a pitcher go down during the season last year and there were reports of a broken ankle. He only missed one start.

Despite Agoura having Stoffel and Stock on the same team, Westlake having Rapoport and Thousand Oaks having Peddicord the league overall seems like it will have a bit of a down year this year. The league is losing Brett Hunter, Bryan Anderson, Clayton Edwards and a lot of other very solid players to college and the pros. That may allow Agoura to contend for a national ranking if the rest of the team is solid. Most years competition in the league is so tough that no one team can really dominate.

I don't know what teams they are playing on at Jupiter but Stock plays for a Braves scout team out here.

Dibble,
In percentages, I think 85% of your posts are just to get TR going. Unfair.
Any really smart college coach and scout knows by end of summer, many pitchers are tired. Not necessarily from overuse. A good coach will tell the showcase director as such, so it can be noted in his report. I know when my son showcased at PG national, he had just pitched that week for his Pokers team, it was noted by PG. Also fall of senior year, after he committed we said shut down, but he did go to Jupiter to pitch an inning or two for the Pokers, his stuff wasn't his best, and everyone knew it. Recruiters and scouts don't turn away for those reasons.
I have no qualifications other than trying to be an educated parent, but I know some people listen to my advice. I don't go spilling all the things that are mentioned to me by a coach, or scout without any documentation as to who said it if asked.

Just what is it that you do, besides being annoying at times?

first of all college coaches and mlb scouts dont often ask a pitcher when did you pitch last. They are gonna go by what they see. Good example, 2 pitchers both have posted on their site.

One pitcher right before going to Team One Nationals, a cross checker demanded he pitch right then in a summer league game. The pitcher normally 88-91 mph range. Throws the day before Team One Nationals, then pitches at Team One throws 84-86 mph. Interest in him falls fast. I see him later at Team One unsign senior showcase he is 88-91 mph, only problem, only 4 colleges are watching the game, most are watching upcoming juniors game.

After a certain person ( hint hint) got the word out on him. The player signs with a top 25 college and later is drafted after a few years in college.


Player 2 a very well know prospect, also has a cross checker demand he pitch before team one nationals. His velocity is down to 88-90 mph. MLB scouts think he has arm problems. Again never bother to ask th player why velocity is down. A certain person ( hint Hint) runs into a bunch of scouting directors and tells he just pitched before he threw at T1 nationals. A few MLb scouting directors were saying he had rotar cuff problems with out bothering to have any medical documation to back that up. Just because his velocity was down on one day.
The player later throws 89- 93 mph at area code games and is drafted in the 1st round..


Players should use some common sense and be in 100 % in when they have to throw in most mlb scouts and colleges.

TPM

I will continue to confront him when I believe that he is misleading people with his dreamed up expanations and info.

He sure seems top be a a lot of places in small amounts of time dont you think !!!!

Ladies and Gentlemen,

The last thing I want to do is to join the feud betweent Dibble and TRHit.I have my own problems on the Illinois forum. But, I would like to answer one point made by Dibble.

You seem to infer that the increased number of TJ surgeries in younger players is do to overuse, bad coaching, too many games played, etc. This past June our son, a 2007, underwent TJ surgery performed by Dr. James Andrews. He flatly said that, in his opinion, it is the presence of the radar gun that might be the number one cause of injury. As good young players get showcased and start to get some exposure, their arms and bodies are not developed enough to amp it up and max it out to the gun. He discarded the notion that it was because my son pitched in the spring for his HS varsity, and then was set to join an elite summer travel team, (as he has done since he was 11). In our case and IMO his innings pitched were never excessive, he has had terrific coaches and trainers but nonetheless tore his ligament. Stuff happens and I personally think that travel baseball is a great plus to players and surely not a negative.

itsrosy

there is no feud--just my efforts to make sure he doesnt mislead people,especially since we have newbies joining us every day

By the way I am in full accord with you regarding the TJ situation--- what brings it about can be a myriad of events or just a freak happening

Ask the sports medical docs, college coaches and mlb scouts why players need TJ surgery and what can be done to prevent players from needing it

quote:

Originally posted by Dibble:
first of all college coaches and mlb scouts dont often ask a pitcher when did you pitch last. They are gonna go by what they see. Good example, 2 pitchers both have posted on their site.

One pitcher right before going to Team One Nationals, a cross checker demanded he pitch right then in a summer league game. The pitcher normally 88-91 mph range. Throws the day before Team One Nationals, then pitches at Team One throws 84-86 mph. Interest in him falls fast. I see him later at Team One unsign senior showcase he is 88-91 mph, only problem, only 4 colleges are watching the game, most are watching upcoming juniors game.

After a certain person ( hint hint) got the word out on him. The player signs with a top 25 college and later is drafted after a few years in college.


Player 2 a very well know prospect, also has a cross checker demand he pitch before team one nationals. His velocity is down to 88-90 mph. MLB scouts think he has arm problems. Again never bother to ask th player why velocity is down. A certain person ( hint Hint) runs into a bunch of scouting directors and tells he just pitched before he threw at T1 nationals. A few MLb scouting directors were saying he had rotar cuff problems with out bothering to have any medical documation to back that up. Just because his velocity was down on one day.
The player later throws 89- 93 mph at area code games and is drafted in the 1st round..


Players should use some common sense and be in 100 % in when they have to throw in most mlb scouts and colleges.

First of all, not ONE cross checker, college coach ,scout,scouting director ever demanded my son to pitch. They always called in advance for next rotation that's where they needed to see him. If they had demanded, we or his coaches would tell them to take a hike. This is NOT how it is done. Interest doesn't fall because velocity is down, that's why they watch the pitcher over several weeks,months IF REALLY INTERSTED. You are making it seem like because a pitchers velocity is down he is undraftable or unsignable for college. It's not a sign of injury.
Yes, I agree, pitchers, parents. coaches have to use common sense, most of them do.
If the above is your point of the thread, state it as such.

Are Travel Teams Bad for the health of pitchers

No...overthrowing above the level of what's prudent for young arms whose platelates may not even be completely fused yet is the problem.

Even for a lot of adult pitcher's overthrowing at a very high velocity can be dangerous to the shoulder and elbow after years of wear-and-tear.

But with adults, over 18yo, it is their own decision and not open to question.

Young minor age ballplayers, under 18yo, are captive audiences, impressionable, and are into living up to the requirements of the "radar gun".

The AMSI article on the Epidemic of Elbow Injuries in High School Baseball Pitchers Requiring UCL Reconstruction (“Tommy John Surgery”)indicates that the radar gun syndrome is suspected of being the main reason for the increase in these injuries.

My opinion, you have to be brain dead not to understand throwing above what the arm can handle at an early age will lead to arm injury.

Getting-batters-out by using the technique that pitching was intended to do...and that is to ""SCREW UP THE BATTERS TIMING" is the object of good pitching.

Maybe pitching by a "real" person is passe.

PGStaff said the game has changed it that it has starters, setup men, mop-ups, closers, etc.

Maybe in the future pitching will be a robot machine, that can crank it up to 100 mph, and the batter will be measured on whether he can hit a high speed baseball, not on whether he is an exceptional athletic specimen with abnormally good hand-eye coordination to follow a moving object that may be dipping, pitching, yawing, and curving into-or-away from him.

I just don't get the fascination with the radar-gun. Sounds to me like that fascination is responsible for ruining a lot of arms.

Believe me most good ballplayers can hit a FB. What they have problem with is adjusting to the differences in movement, and varying speeds thrown at pinpoint locations.

But no....travel teams are not bad for the health of pitchers...radar guns are.

One of these Days for us newcomers it would be nice to know the history with Dibble and Tr. and also Dibbles background (I know TR's)

I think Dibble does have a point in general terms(skip pass the anecdotal stories) about over use and number of innings for 16 and 17 yr old kids. The pitchers are starting in February and many don't finish until end of October.

In regards to the AFLAC games I think it is fair to say that some of the pitchers did not look as sharp as they did in the East Coast Professional Showcase. It may not have had anything to do with innings pitched...could have been nerves or a number of other factors unrelated to their arms.

I would also say that if a kid is unknown and has an off day, vs. a highly regarded prospect the effect may be different. The unknown may not get the opportunity to have some colleges see him or care to see him if his velocity was not there first time around.

With all due respect to showcase companies and the like, the best thing for pitchers is summer baseball. In the mid-atlantic, kids start pitching in games in mid-March. Temps are usually ranging from 40-70 degrees, with lots of wind. In the summer it is nice and hot, easy to get loose. While I'll admit that some summer coaches overuse pitchers (Gavin Floyd - Phil. Phillies, once threw 27 pitches in the 7th inning of the 1st game of a DHer against us, then turned around and threw 147 pitches in the night cap), I would think that showcase baseball may be more harmful. Correct me if I am wrong, isn't showcase ball usually played on weekends, during the fall? Are pitchers throwing regularly during the week, or showing up on Saturday and letting it fly? Don't some of these top notch showcase pitchers play a fall sport like football? Aren't they throwing lots of passes (if they are playing QB) during the week, with a different throwing motion then when they are on the hill?

Dibble, I enjoy your posts cause they make me think. I can't hammer you like the others on this forum, but give me some time.

.

The radar gun issue will be moot when players/parents see pitchers recruited as readily as throwers.

.