Texan
The grip has a direct effect on how the ball reacts at the release point. That was the thrust of my original point.
The grip can cause drag coefficient characteristics that emulate a similar effect dragging the foot.
In the discussion I have never advocated a "monolithic" approach to these techniques.
As I have taught my son to use the three arm slots, overhand-elbow at the ear, 3/4 arm-slot elbow, at the shoulder, and sidearm-elbow, slightly below the shoulder, when he throws his slurve.
In fact the best pitchers will use a variety of techniques and grips to do several things. For instance, some coaches have eliminated the "slide step" pitch out of the set position. They advocate using solely the "live leg lift". Problem with this approach in my opinion it allows the runner to get to large a jump. IMO a better approach is to alternate both the number of times in checking the runner and use of the slide step, and alternatively the live leg lift. I have taught my son to alternate all three techniques, quick pitch-no look, slide step and live leg lift with random checks so the runner can't time the pitchers body movements. Very seldom does a runner steal a bag when my son is pitching.
Similarly, the grips can provide a variety of speeds without any change whatsoever in the mechanics.
But there is a big difference between the effects of the grip and the effects that the three arm slots have in conjunction with a proper "tempo" in the rhythm at the release point.
In my opinion Juan Marichal of the SF Giants is the consummate pitcher of pitcher's because he used a variety of different pitches he had that he could throw for strikes, he knew how to pitch using changes in speeds of several different varieties. I saw him throw a double-header back-to-back, and one game that went 15 innings. They don't make them like him anymore.
Completely agree on having a variety of different grips that provide different movement and different speed.
I'm not sure what you mean by "live" leg lift. I have found that in the stretch, a very quick leg lift (where the knee comes up even with the waist) can be as effective as the slide step.
Your point on varying looks is a good one. The slowest runner can steal on a pitcher who never varies his looks.
With the slide step, the entire timing of the mechanics must change. Again, I am a big believer in making it easy to be consistent. The upper body mechanics must be "rushed" if you will, since the leg lift is cut so short. Timing of the upper body mechanics changes.
With a quick leg lift, once the knee reaches the waist, the entire remainder of the mechanics (and the timing thereof) are unchanged. And the leg lift is essentially unchanged, it is just performed more quickly. No rushing of the upper body is required.
My pitchers have been very effective with the quick leg lift. Vary the looks, freeze the runner, keep the pick throws very rare (waiting for a cocky runner to take too big a lead, thus providing a chance to either get the out or at least put a good scare into the runner & coach) and be quick to the plate. Most teams will attempt to steal, but after having their first two attempted stealers thrown out, they pretty much quit.
The problem I have seen with the slide step is that most pitchers suffer serious losses in velocity and command (due to the previously described need to change their mechanics). And what good does it do to hold the runner on first only to walk the batter?
Obviously some pitchers are able to use the slide step successfully. Not arguing that. But from my experience, the quick leg lift is a solid alternative that can work for any pitcher.
I'm not sure what you mean by "live" leg lift. I have found that in the stretch, a very quick leg lift (where the knee comes up even with the waist) can be as effective as the slide step.
Your point on varying looks is a good one. The slowest runner can steal on a pitcher who never varies his looks.
With the slide step, the entire timing of the mechanics must change. Again, I am a big believer in making it easy to be consistent. The upper body mechanics must be "rushed" if you will, since the leg lift is cut so short. Timing of the upper body mechanics changes.
With a quick leg lift, once the knee reaches the waist, the entire remainder of the mechanics (and the timing thereof) are unchanged. And the leg lift is essentially unchanged, it is just performed more quickly. No rushing of the upper body is required.
My pitchers have been very effective with the quick leg lift. Vary the looks, freeze the runner, keep the pick throws very rare (waiting for a cocky runner to take too big a lead, thus providing a chance to either get the out or at least put a good scare into the runner & coach) and be quick to the plate. Most teams will attempt to steal, but after having their first two attempted stealers thrown out, they pretty much quit.
The problem I have seen with the slide step is that most pitchers suffer serious losses in velocity and command (due to the previously described need to change their mechanics). And what good does it do to hold the runner on first only to walk the batter?
Obviously some pitchers are able to use the slide step successfully. Not arguing that. But from my experience, the quick leg lift is a solid alternative that can work for any pitcher.
I don't like the slide step either, guys.....it definitely takes away from the pitch. If it is going to be used, I would recommend only using when throwing a pitch out of the strike zone.
A pitcher can have a high knee lift and still have a quick, efficent delivery to the plate, thus preventing runners from stealing on the pitcher. My son's knee comes as high as his nose, and his delivery (from first movement to the time the ball hits the catchere's mitt) is consistently at 1.0 to 1.1 seconds.
I don't normally mention much of his stats on here, and he and I rarely talk about his stats, but of my favorite stats of his during the past college season is this: 69 IP, 4 attempted steals, 5 pickoffs.
A pitcher can have a high knee lift and still have a quick, efficent delivery to the plate, thus preventing runners from stealing on the pitcher. My son's knee comes as high as his nose, and his delivery (from first movement to the time the ball hits the catchere's mitt) is consistently at 1.0 to 1.1 seconds.
I don't normally mention much of his stats on here, and he and I rarely talk about his stats, but of my favorite stats of his during the past college season is this: 69 IP, 4 attempted steals, 5 pickoffs.
Texan said: Obviously some pitchers are able to use the slide step successfully. Not arguing that. But from my experience, the quick leg lift is a solid alternative that can work for any pitcher.
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I understand that this is not the prevailing thought currently. In fact the pitching coaches have eliminated the slide step from the pitchers repertoire at the college level. My son included, it really ticked him off, because he actually learned the slide step at 8yo and can throw without any velocity differential. He was at 1.0, 1.1, with the slide step and now is at 1.2, 1.3 with the leg left. What I don't like about the leg lift is the fact that it causes "rushing" of the mechanics.
JMO that both techniques should be used to help the pitcher keep the runner as close to the bag as possible.
The slide step is no different from the regular wind-up except that the stage that it begins is at the pivot-foot-knee flex and the hands are brought totally down at the pocket side of the leg, all in one movement.
The power is in the hip turn not in the leg lift. So to eliminate the slide step just shows me that coaches don't understand how to teach it.
There is no difference in the speed of the ball if the slide step is understood and taught properly.
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I understand that this is not the prevailing thought currently. In fact the pitching coaches have eliminated the slide step from the pitchers repertoire at the college level. My son included, it really ticked him off, because he actually learned the slide step at 8yo and can throw without any velocity differential. He was at 1.0, 1.1, with the slide step and now is at 1.2, 1.3 with the leg left. What I don't like about the leg lift is the fact that it causes "rushing" of the mechanics.
JMO that both techniques should be used to help the pitcher keep the runner as close to the bag as possible.
The slide step is no different from the regular wind-up except that the stage that it begins is at the pivot-foot-knee flex and the hands are brought totally down at the pocket side of the leg, all in one movement.
The power is in the hip turn not in the leg lift. So to eliminate the slide step just shows me that coaches don't understand how to teach it.
There is no difference in the speed of the ball if the slide step is understood and taught properly.
Grateful, good to hear what you related. Confirms what I have taught.
Ramrod, somehow we are not connecting. The slide step requires rushing of the mechanics. Timing must change, otherwise the arm would not be in the proper position when the foot lands.
With a quick leg lift, the only thing that changes is bring the leg up quicker. After that, nothing in the delivery changes at all.
Ramrod, somehow we are not connecting. The slide step requires rushing of the mechanics. Timing must change, otherwise the arm would not be in the proper position when the foot lands.
With a quick leg lift, the only thing that changes is bring the leg up quicker. After that, nothing in the delivery changes at all.
Ramrod.....I understand some of what you are saying, but if a true slide step is used, then it definitely will take away from the pitch, whether it be the velocity or movement.
Also, don't be so quick to jump to conclusions, Ramrod. Just because college coaches tend to eliminate the slide step....it does NOT mean that they don't understand how to teach it. It could be a matter of philosophy, don't you think? If a parent can teach an 8 y.o. a slide step, don't you think a college coach can teach one to a college pitcheer?
In addition, the development of a good pickoff move, or moves, can eliminate the need for a slide step, especially with RHP.
This is just my opinion, but a slide step is unnecesary. I will admit, there are some high school pitchers who are desperately in need of refining their deliveries with runners on base.
Also, don't be so quick to jump to conclusions, Ramrod. Just because college coaches tend to eliminate the slide step....it does NOT mean that they don't understand how to teach it. It could be a matter of philosophy, don't you think? If a parent can teach an 8 y.o. a slide step, don't you think a college coach can teach one to a college pitcheer?
In addition, the development of a good pickoff move, or moves, can eliminate the need for a slide step, especially with RHP.
This is just my opinion, but a slide step is unnecesary. I will admit, there are some high school pitchers who are desperately in need of refining their deliveries with runners on base.
Texan said: Ramrod, somehow we are not connecting. The slide step requires rushing of the mechanics.
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Texan this is an opinion not a fact. I just explained the difference in times based upon methods and in order to get to 1.0-1.2 range with the leg lift, don't tell me you don't have to speed up your mechanics.
The slide step when done properly is quicker without rushing. The only part of the movement that needs to be regulated differently is the power stride which is more intense, but that starts with the knee flex, and the turn at the hip needs to be executed with no difference than when pitching out of the windup.
When Felix Rodriguez was with the SF Giants we watched him work out of his set. We timed him. 1.3 out of the leg lift 1.1 out of the slide step. Without men on base he did a leg lift, with men on base he did a slide step. His velocity never changed for his fb 93-98mph. But he was much quicker to the release point out of the slide step, then out of the leg lift.
I think Coach Grateful expressed it well with his assertion that it is more a philosophy than anything else.
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Texan this is an opinion not a fact. I just explained the difference in times based upon methods and in order to get to 1.0-1.2 range with the leg lift, don't tell me you don't have to speed up your mechanics.
The slide step when done properly is quicker without rushing. The only part of the movement that needs to be regulated differently is the power stride which is more intense, but that starts with the knee flex, and the turn at the hip needs to be executed with no difference than when pitching out of the windup.
When Felix Rodriguez was with the SF Giants we watched him work out of his set. We timed him. 1.3 out of the leg lift 1.1 out of the slide step. Without men on base he did a leg lift, with men on base he did a slide step. His velocity never changed for his fb 93-98mph. But he was much quicker to the release point out of the slide step, then out of the leg lift.
I think Coach Grateful expressed it well with his assertion that it is more a philosophy than anything else.
First, I have acknowledged that some use the slide step succesfully.
But it is fact that the slide step requires rushing the mechanics.
In a normal situation, when does the hand break occur? When the knee starts to go down (following completion of leg lift).
With the slide step, if the hand break does not occur until the knee starts to go down (extremely quickly, as the knee comes up very little in the slide step), timing will be completely fouled up or the upper body mechanics will be incredibly rushed.
The other alternative is that the break occurs before the knee goes down. The mechanics (timing) are changed and rushed if you will.
Anyone can verify this by either observation or going out & trying it. This isn't philosophy, it is fact.
When it comes to teaching youth pitchers, I am with Grateful. Quick leg lift, no slide step.
But it is fact that the slide step requires rushing the mechanics.
In a normal situation, when does the hand break occur? When the knee starts to go down (following completion of leg lift).
With the slide step, if the hand break does not occur until the knee starts to go down (extremely quickly, as the knee comes up very little in the slide step), timing will be completely fouled up or the upper body mechanics will be incredibly rushed.
The other alternative is that the break occurs before the knee goes down. The mechanics (timing) are changed and rushed if you will.
Anyone can verify this by either observation or going out & trying it. This isn't philosophy, it is fact.
When it comes to teaching youth pitchers, I am with Grateful. Quick leg lift, no slide step.
Texan
Very good explanation of what a slide step form is not
Look, when the hands are locked at the set, in the leg lift the hands are bounced a tad then slightly dropped before separating to the tee. This must be done to maintain rhythm and since rhythm = speed with out the rhythm step the timing is screwed. The rhythm step is whats the difference in 1.0 and 1.3.
The slide step does not have a bounce rhythm step...
In the slide step form, the hands after the set are brought down as the back knee flexes, the front leg is simply beginning to move forward going to the tee. The hands and the feet meet at the tee in unison. It takes less then a .05 sec to do that. The rhythm step is the hands at the bottom of the break and the end of the knee flex. It is a matter of timing like anything else in pitching.
After the rhythm step the pitcher is at the tee, and at that point he is like any other pitcher at the tee. He is in the middle of his dyanmic load point. From there he can open hard to throw the fb or as my son does opens early to throw his off-speed stuff.
To complete the entire movement takes approximately 1.0 sec in a very relaxed manner...and no rush.
I think we are just going to simply agree to disagree.
Thanks for the conversation.
Very good explanation of what a slide step form is not
Look, when the hands are locked at the set, in the leg lift the hands are bounced a tad then slightly dropped before separating to the tee. This must be done to maintain rhythm and since rhythm = speed with out the rhythm step the timing is screwed. The rhythm step is whats the difference in 1.0 and 1.3.
The slide step does not have a bounce rhythm step...
In the slide step form, the hands after the set are brought down as the back knee flexes, the front leg is simply beginning to move forward going to the tee. The hands and the feet meet at the tee in unison. It takes less then a .05 sec to do that. The rhythm step is the hands at the bottom of the break and the end of the knee flex. It is a matter of timing like anything else in pitching.
After the rhythm step the pitcher is at the tee, and at that point he is like any other pitcher at the tee. He is in the middle of his dyanmic load point. From there he can open hard to throw the fb or as my son does opens early to throw his off-speed stuff.
To complete the entire movement takes approximately 1.0 sec in a very relaxed manner...and no rush.
I think we are just going to simply agree to disagree.
Thanks for the conversation.
quote:Originally posted by Ramrod:
I think we are just going to simply agree to disagree.
That part of your post I can agree with. As for the rest, I agree that the dead horse has been beaten enough.
Ramrod, Grateful, & Texan, thanks for the CU advice. I think it's going to take some time 
I just found this on http://www.webball.com & thought it was interesting in relation to arm slots. Well, if I'd known this, I never would've suggested having my son throw over the top....
Thanks & have a great day!
Andrew
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Try to throw with a high-arm angle ensures a couple of things - your eyes won't be level so your aim is off, and you'll impinge your rotator cuff. You are also likely to open your elbow too soon. Think of it this way - the farther the weight of the ball is from your shoulders throughout the throw, the more force required (angular momentum), and the quicker your arm gets tired.
HOW NOT TO HURT YOUR ARM: Three-quarter is safest - arm angle some where between 10 o'clock and 11 o'clock as seen from catcher position. Try to throw with a high-arm angle ensures a couple of things - your eyes won't be level so your aim is off, and you'll impinge your rotator cuff. You are also likely to open your elbow too soon. Think of it this way - the farther the weight of the ball is from your shoulders throughout the throw, the more force required (angular momentum), and the quicker your arm gets tired.
I just found this on http://www.webball.com & thought it was interesting in relation to arm slots. Well, if I'd known this, I never would've suggested having my son throw over the top....
Thanks & have a great day!
Andrew
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Try to throw with a high-arm angle ensures a couple of things - your eyes won't be level so your aim is off, and you'll impinge your rotator cuff. You are also likely to open your elbow too soon. Think of it this way - the farther the weight of the ball is from your shoulders throughout the throw, the more force required (angular momentum), and the quicker your arm gets tired.
HOW NOT TO HURT YOUR ARM: Three-quarter is safest - arm angle some where between 10 o'clock and 11 o'clock as seen from catcher position. Try to throw with a high-arm angle ensures a couple of things - your eyes won't be level so your aim is off, and you'll impinge your rotator cuff. You are also likely to open your elbow too soon. Think of it this way - the farther the weight of the ball is from your shoulders throughout the throw, the more force required (angular momentum), and the quicker your arm gets tired.