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29 replies

Asking on a check swing?

MU Mr Umpire100+ posts
In a 2 man crew (assuming OBR):

Do you always ask your partner when the defense requests help on a check swing when your partner is in B or C position? I know OBR says PU always asks when the catcher or manager asks.

Do you provide additional language to convince the defense not to ask b/c you are sure you saw it such as "No, he didn't go"? Especially if BU is in B or C position.

Have you ever used or had a partner who insisted on using some secret code to say "Agree with my call" or "Give me what you have on it"? Such as, calling partner by name means "agree" or not doing so means "what do you have".


I am wondering if there are a lot who do this. Also, is it a "level" thing such as any College or MiLB don't do it but lower levels such as HS and below do.

I started out with the notion of not asking if my partner was in B or C when I was 14 years old b/c I was told that by other more experienced umpires. But, I have moved on from that as my own experience grew. Also, I have never used secret code nor had a partner to suggest secret code. And, I don't use "No, he didn't go" b/c I said "Ball" and I feel that is enough to say "No, he didn't go". I have no problem if anyone does use that but I do take an issue with it being used as a deterrent.

I am just curious b/c I have not ever seen an issue with getting another strike called in the game even if it didn't come from me.
Question everything until you get an irrefutable or understandable answer...Don't settle for "That's Just the Way it is"
Last edited {1}
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TX-Ump74TX-Ump74100+ posts
OOOHHH secret codes... no secret codes... I always tell my partner that "If I come to you give me what you have" even in B/C. Now on a check swing when my partner is in B/C I won't automatically go to him like I might do if he was in A (2man).

If asked I go (99% of the time) also if I go to my partner in B/C and he lights them up... the OC will take off to him not me...LOL... make your bed and sleep in it...
Last edited by TX-Ump74
redbird5redbird510,000+ posts
A secondary question along that same vein...On a check swing on a ball in the dirt, I was always taught to have the catcher block the ball, retrieve it, tag the batter and THEN ask for hel pon the check swing. An umpire recently told to ask first and then get the ball. Seems bass ackwards to me. Your thoughts?
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
1. Only a "local larry" will tell his partner how to rule on a check swing. Bush league and something I haven't run into since the early 80's.

2. Secret signals? Dumb. They won't remain secret for long and will get you in trouble.

3. Umpires have no business coaching catchers. We have special mechanics we need to remember on dropped third strikes and dropped checkswings on strike two and need to pay attention to our jobs, not the catcher's.
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
I always tell catchers that I will ask if you ask. I don't care where my partner is or what the level is, I will ask. Now if I hear someone complain about guys coming to them in B/C, I tell them just call what you have. If you aren't sure then he didn't go, if you are sure then ring him.
I had a guy years ago try the secret signal thing, I just nodded and went on. I still gave him what I had no matter. If he had complained I would simply say I missed his signal.
I do use,"No he didn't" if as the PU I think I have it. That is acompanied by a point at the batter.
MU Mr Umpire100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by redbird5:
A secondary question along that same vein...On a check swing on a ball in the dirt, I was always taught to have the catcher block the ball, retrieve it, tag the batter and THEN ask for hel pon the check swing. An umpire recently told to ask first and then get the ball. Seems bass ackwards to me. Your thoughts?

On a ball in the dirt, I am not waiting on the catcher to ask. I will be asking before he even gets the ball. This is to give everyone the same chance on the play. So the batter knows he needs to run and the catcher knows he needs to hurry to get the out.

Never had a complaint when doing that. Everyone knows their role at that point.
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Umpire:

On a ball in the dirt, I am not waiting on the catcher to ask. I will be asking before he even gets the ball. This is to give everyone the same chance on the play. So the batter knows he needs to run and the catcher knows he needs to hurry to get the out.


And if the appropriate BU has a swing, and PU doesn't go to him immediately, then BU comes up with the strike call. I don't think that's a FED mechanic however.
O otownmike100+ posts
quote:
1. Only a "local larry" will tell his partner how to rule on a check swing. Bush league and something I haven't run into since the early 80's.

2. Secret signals? Dumb. They won't remain secret for long and will get you in trouble.

3. Umpires have no business coaching catchers. We have special mechanics we need to remember on dropped third strikes and dropped checkswings on strike two and need to pay attention to our jobs, not the catcher's.


I like all these responses. Been working recently with good Orlando area HS umps and they will defer to B-C and want you to give it to them straight, no signals.

With drop 3rd strike I will advise catcher to tag/throw if any doubt and I will defer check swigng if PU and give appropriate signal if field ump for dropped 3rd....I also employ MST method if I see it clearly.
M Matt1310,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
1. Only a "local larry" will tell his partner how to rule on a check swing. Bush league and something I haven't run into since the early 80's.


Yep. I've had this problem when on the stick: some of the--ahem--"older" guys will never rule a swing in B or C, saying that "I'm just backing up my partner." (Curiously, they've never complained if I give them a strike from there.) I'm fortunate in my association in that there are a lot of similar age who decide to go to school just to do it and get better, and don't have that presupposition anymore (if they had it at all.)

quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
2. Secret signals? Dumb. They won't remain secret for long and will get you in trouble.


We use one "secret" signal, usually given on the part of an umpire who brain-farts mechanically and needs bailing out. A pat to the chest, followed by six fingers up.
Last edited by Matt13
B bsballfan100+ posts
Actually had the plate umpire do the whole "take my mask off and ask" as a code or whatever to rule that he didn't go, more experienced ump in the field rung him up as it was an obvious swing (on our hitter I might add)

Our event manager later told me he heard him in the locker room letting him have it for it...."if you show me up or tell me what to call again i'll never work with you again"
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bsballfan:
Actually had the plate umpire do the whole "take my mask off and ask" as a code or whatever to rule that he didn't go, more experienced ump in the field rung him up as it was an obvious swing (on our hitter I might add)

Our event manager later told me he heard him in the locker room letting him have it for it...."if you show me up or tell me what to call again i'll never work with you again"


and that would be fine with me.....if any umpire is more concerned with "not being shown up" on a checked swing call, then I dont need to work with him anyway....

If you dont want my opinion, dont come to me....if you do, you get what I see in whatever position I'm in....but then again, thats something I cover in my pregame....
yawetagyawetag100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by POLOGREEN:
Sorry .... I meant "Going" on a Check Swing. My bad!!!!

Polo, twice now you've stated that you won't appeal a batter that you judged made an attempt at the pitch. That's a good thing -- you're not supposed to.

Assuming you meant you may not appeal to your BU when you judge he didn't swing, I have one question: what ruleset are you umpiring?
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
Perhaps you were thinking you wouldn't check if you were sure he didn't swing. If it is a check swing and I am sure he didn't swing then I will point at the batter and say,"Ball, no he didn't!" This stops most coaches from asking, but if he does, I will still go to my partner. I do not have a problem with my base umpire overturning it to a strike. I have seen ones that were changed and I thought Wow! It still doesn't matter, they are only calling what they have.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Hawghauler:
I'm not an Umpire but my son is a catcher. If the ball is in the dirt on a check swing the catcher should tag and/or throw without waiting for the umpires call. Of course, on a check swing and the ball is in the dirt and the batter starts to run to first, well I would be inclined to think that he did swing. Why else would he be running? Wink


A good batter would run because he never knows what the umpires will rule, regardless of whether he thinks he swung or not.

Many coaches make the same assumption you did when they are on defense, but for some reason, not when on offense. I take into consideration only what I saw of the check swing, not the action of the batter or catcher.
Last edited by Jimmy03
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by FoxDad:
I know this is a somewhat old thread but I have a question that doesn't seem to be answered.

On a check swing, if the catcher or coach asks for help is the PU required to ask for it?

During my son's game the PU refused to ask for help for the entire game.


Under FED the umpire is not required to ask his partner for help as he is under OBR. However, in my opinion, only a fool doesn't. What's the worse that can happen...another strike? Cool.
F FoxDad10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
Under FED the umpire is not required to ask his partner for help as he is under OBR. However, in my opinion, only a fool doesn't. What's the worse that can happen...another strike? Cool.


That's just it. Everytime he ruled "no swing" and I have video of one where the batter definitely broke the plane, but even when the catcher asked for "help" from the field ump the base ump refused to ask.

To be fair, it didn't matter which team "asked" for help, he never did.

The sad thing is one of the check swings ruled not a swing made a significant difference in the outcome of the game. Had he asked for help on that swing, it would have been batter out, inning over. Instead the batter hits the next pitch for an RBI triple tying the game.
WelpeWelpe10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by FoxDad:
The sad thing is one of the check swings ruled not a swing made a significant difference in the outcome of the game. Had he asked for help on that swing, it would have been batter out, inning over. Instead the batter hits the next pitch for an RBI triple tying the game.


Assuming, of course, the base umpire judged that the batter offered.
JMoffJMoff1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by FoxDad:
I know this is a somewhat old thread but I have a question that doesn't seem to be answered.

On a check swing, if the catcher or coach asks for help is the PU required to ask for it?

During my son's game the PU refused to ask for help for the entire game.


Depending on BU, this might be a good idea. We had one the other night who might've responded to an appeal of a swing with a HR call. I hope he was just having a really bad day.

Thank goodness those guys are few and far between. Most of the umpires we've had this year have been outstanding, but when my mother in law starts asking questions and the fans stop complaining and start keeping track of who's ahead in bad calls, you know its a bad night.
yawetagyawetag100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by FoxDad:
That's just it. Everytime he ruled "no swing" and I have video of one where the batter definitely broke the plane, but even when the catcher asked for "help" from the field ump the base ump refused to ask.


Not that it matters to your situation, the judgment isn't whether the bat "broke the plane," but if the batter offered at the pitch.

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