Here’s a post that was made just today on the ASMI web site. Check out the link to the position statement.
http://asmiforum.proboards.com...ement-tommy-injuries
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
Good read. Pretty much mirrors what ASMI had said in the past and what most of us on here knew already, but it's good they put it out in writing.
I really enjoy the duality that has existed for 20+ years: "Optimize your pitching mechanics" in combination with "We don't know what pitching mechanics are optimal."
Always fun. 
I do find this statement interesting...
Performance-Enhancing Drugs (PEDs) may enable the athlete to achieve disproportionately strong muscles that overwhelm the UCL and lead to injury.
This is a similar theory that my son's ortho expressed with regard to pitchers in the 13-17 year old range. Not PEDs, but just quick growth spurts in the muscles that overwhelm the ligaments / tendons which take a longer time to mature. In my son's case he said he had the muscles of a grown man and the elbow of a nine year old.
To me it would make for an interesting study... Take teen pitchers that get injured and backtrack over the previous year and see how much growth they have had and weight they have gained.
Originally Posted by Rob T:
…To me it would make for an interesting study... Take teen pitchers that get injured and backtrack over the previous year and see how much growth they have had and weight they have gained.
I think you’re correct, but any study like that requires records be kept, but that’s a rare thing. 
I could see a reason for most everything ever mentioned having an impact on TJ surgery increase.
It is interesting that nearly everyone talks about improving mechanics. When my son had TJ, they strongly recommended a change in mechanics. The change to a more traditional style lowered his peak velocity. He became a different type of pitcher. Guess you could say it worked because he made it back to the Big Leagues. However, soon after he blew out his shoulder.
Those that aren't taught/instructed throw the baseball based on what their body and arm are telling them. They make adjustments almost automatically simply be feeling things. For most this is what could be called their natural delivery or throwing motion. In the old days many pitchers threw like that throughout long careers. Long before that they hunted with rocks. How fast and how accurate you could throw the rock, the better you ate. Nobody cared HOW you threw it, if it was fast and accurate, you were good!
Now days, when a very good arm is discovered, there seem to be a large number of "professional instructors" willing to improve that pitchers mechanics. Often this becomes the cookie cutter approach we talk about. Every pitcher basically mirroring the others.
I've always had a problem with that. Do we think taught ability is better than natural talent? I understand that can be the case with some. However, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know each individual is different. Every finger, arm, body, is different on every pitcher. So how can there be only one way to throw a baseball? Your best way, might not work best for me.
I always use Bob Feller as an example. He learned to pitch out behind the barn, throwing the ball the way his mind and body told him he could best throw it. In most ways he pitched that same style to the Hall of Fame. If Bob Feller had grown up now days, I wonder what might have happened. Would someone have changed his mechanics? Well seeing that nobody these days has Bob Fellers exact delivery, I guess he would have changed, too.
I really believe that in some ways we are actually taking some natural ability away from talented players in the interest of improving their mechanics. I think the very best instructors try to preserve the natural and tweek things mechanically, rather than change everything.
In my opinion, people are missing (or ignoring) an important part of this Position Statement:
"ELBOW TORQUES DURING FULL-EFFORT PITCHING ON A MOUND AND FULL-EFFORT THROWING ON FLAT GROUND ARE ABOUT THE SAME. The real solution is for young pitchers to do less full-effort pitching and more throwing (practice throws, playing other positions, playing other sports)." (Emphasis Added).
Dang near every pitching coach in the country swears that throwing off of flat ground is less stressful on the arm. According to this, that is incorrect. This is not a new statement by ASMI. This is actually from a study published several years ago that has been largely ignored.
I don't think I recall ever seeing ASMI recommend less than full effort pitching. I definitely have never seen them recommend less than full effort flat ground throwing, until now.
So, what are the implications? If true, this would raise questions about the safety of long toss (both maximum distance and on a line) and the use of weighted balls at maximum effort/intent.
Before the Jaegers and Boddy's go off on me, I am not saying I agree with this position, just pointing out what seem to me to be the implications.
""" Long before that they hunted with rocks. How fast and how accurate you could throw the rock, the better you ate.""""
....the ancestors of the Molina's must have thrown from a crouch!
Originally Posted by Go44dad:
""" Long before that they hunted with rocks. How fast and how accurate you could throw the rock, the better you ate.""""
....the ancestors of the Molina's must have thrown from a crouch!
...and the females threw underhanded. It was a little slower, but they could hunt all day.
Originally Posted by PGStaff:
I could see a reason for most everything ever mentioned having an impact on TJ surgery increase.
It is interesting that nearly everyone talks about improving mechanics. When my son had TJ, they strongly recommended a change in mechanics. The change to a more traditional style lowered his peak velocity. He became a different type of pitcher. Guess you could say it worked because he made it back to the Big Leagues. However, soon after he blew out his shoulder.
Those that aren't taught/instructed throw the baseball based on what their body and arm are telling them. They make adjustments almost automatically simply be feeling things. For most this is what could be called their natural delivery or throwing motion. In the old days many pitchers threw like that throughout long careers. Long before that they hunted with rocks. How fast and how accurate you could throw the rock, the better you ate. Nobody cared HOW you threw it, if it was fast and accurate, you were good!
Now days, when a very good arm is discovered, there seem to be a large number of "professional instructors" willing to improve that pitchers mechanics. Often this becomes the cookie cutter approach we talk about. Every pitcher basically mirroring the others.
I've always had a problem with that. Do we think taught ability is better than natural talent? I understand that can be the case with some. However, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know each individual is different. Every finger, arm, body, is different on every pitcher. So how can there be only one way to throw a baseball? Your best way, might not work best for me.
I always use Bob Feller as an example. He learned to pitch out behind the barn, throwing the ball the way his mind and body told him he could best throw it. In most ways he pitched that same style to the Hall of Fame. If Bob Feller had grown up now days, I wonder what might have happened. Would someone have changed his mechanics? Well seeing that nobody these days has Bob Fellers exact delivery, I guess he would have changed, too.
I really believe that in some ways we are actually taking some natural ability away from talented players in the interest of improving their mechanics. I think the very best instructors try to preserve the natural and tweek things mechanically, rather than change everything.
I agree completely. I believe as well that the velo these kids are throwing now also plays a big part. I saw a study that showed the TJ's went up as the velo's went up. when I finished HS I was the only pitcher in my part of the state that threw over 90, my son graduates this year and we have 3 in our small city. we need a dozen 88mph pitchers to make it big and remove some of the love of velo.
Originally Posted by Go44dad:
""" Long before that they hunted with rocks. How fast and how accurate you could throw the rock, the better you ate.""""
Dickey's ancestors threw rocks that mesmerized the T-Rex, and they fell over.
Originally Posted by PGStaff:
I could see a reason for most everything ever mentioned having an impact on TJ surgery increase.
It is interesting that nearly everyone talks about improving mechanics. When my son had TJ, they strongly recommended a change in mechanics. The change to a more traditional style lowered his peak velocity. He became a different type of pitcher. Guess you could say it worked because he made it back to the Big Leagues. However, soon after he blew out his shoulder.
Those that aren't taught/instructed throw the baseball based on what their body and arm are telling them. They make adjustments almost automatically simply be feeling things. For most this is what could be called their natural delivery or throwing motion. In the old days many pitchers threw like that throughout long careers. Long before that they hunted with rocks. How fast and how accurate you could throw the rock, the better you ate. Nobody cared HOW you threw it, if it was fast and accurate, you were good!
Now days, when a very good arm is discovered, there seem to be a large number of "professional instructors" willing to improve that pitchers mechanics. Often this becomes the cookie cutter approach we talk about. Every pitcher basically mirroring the others.
I've always had a problem with that. Do we think taught ability is better than natural talent? I understand that can be the case with some. However, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know each individual is different. Every finger, arm, body, is different on every pitcher. So how can there be only one way to throw a baseball? Your best way, might not work best for me.
I always use Bob Feller as an example. He learned to pitch out behind the barn, throwing the ball the way his mind and body told him he could best throw it. In most ways he pitched that same style to the Hall of Fame. If Bob Feller had grown up now days, I wonder what might have happened. Would someone have changed his mechanics? Well seeing that nobody these days has Bob Fellers exact delivery, I guess he would have changed, too.
I really believe that in some ways we are actually taking some natural ability away from talented players in the interest of improving their mechanics. I think the very best instructors try to preserve the natural and tweek things mechanically, rather than change everything.
Shhhh! There is a billion dollar industry relying on no one listening to what you are saying.
Originally Posted by Rob T:
Originally Posted by Go44dad:
""" Long before that they hunted with rocks. How fast and how accurate you could throw the rock, the better you ate.""""
....the ancestors of the Molina's must have thrown from a crouch!
...and the females threw underhanded. It was a little slower, but they could hunt all day.
A big +1 on PG Staff's post about cookie cutter mechanics. I agree that this is likely a contributing factor with arm problems. That and young guys getting disproportionately strong early and throwing harder earlier... Over loading still developing tendons. That's based on nothing more than one guy's semi-informed opinion, but I think these are two major factors with all the injured elbows.
BTW... I think hitting mechanics are often similarly over corrected.
The cookie cutter sure did create a lot of 95 mph arms that make millions of dollars.
Sultan,
You are correct, with the advent of slow motion (frame by frame) video, instructors have been able to pick up on the similarities from elite, hard throwing pitchers. Add to that, the improvements on strength and conditioning, and you have more guys throwing harder than ever before. Nobody really knows, but it could be that although you can make a 90+ pitcher, not all 90+ pitchers have the UCL that can handle that. Maybe genetics is more of a contributing factor than some folks are realizing.
If you watch MLB games you will see many different sizes, different deliveries, different angles, etc. That in itself makes it harder to hit!
The secret to having a mid 90s arm, is to be born with one. That said, there are more outstanding pitching instructors now than ever. Problem is there are also a lot more that use the cookie cutter approach for everyone they teach. Truth is, individuals don't all throw exactly the same way. The type of mechanics that work for a John Lester might not work for a Randy Johnson. Furthermore, when you take away the things that are natural you "could" be increasing the risk of injury. Bottom line, there are thousands of those cookie cutter pitchers that can't pitch at the next level.
It blows my mind that movement constraints ie... mobility-stability weren't considered. Its not the same as physical conditioning.
I didn't see specialization at an early age, unless they were referring to playing year around.
Personally, I'm tired of 'optimal mechanics', what are they? The most important aspect of 'optimal mechanics' is efficient movement. It's also millions of motor programs, sometimes called muscle memory, that are what make your mechanics, your mechanics.
Attempting to change these to please some guru that promises you health and happiness are idiotic. In fact, it increases your risk for injury.
