ASU baseball..trouble/NCAA type

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
http://www.azcentral.com/sport...2011-postseason.html

The current team is banned for post-season play in 2011.
They lose 2 scholarships.
And the former Head Coach at the heart of the penalties can return to Coaching without even a slap on the wrist... other than he cannot call recruits while he is coaching in Milb this Summer???.
Seems like the NCAA has been more than rational in this one???

The ban on post season play is silly since the major culprit is gone.

National Collegiate Association against Athletes. What's to understand?

Seriously, the concept is that the school is responsible for hiring coaches who will follow the rules and making sure that they follow the rules. The penalties are imposed on the school and not just on the coach for that reason. Of course if one were to follow through on that logic penalties would be levied on all sports programs including, gasp, football.

I thought I also read that if Pat Murphy is hired by a college before next Dec the college has to clear it first with the NCAA infractions committee. And who ever hires him to coach college baseball would have to be above reproach.

You would think the AD would have had more control over the coach and the way he administered the program. It is too bad they penalize the current players.

I've said it before and taken some heat but the infractions themselves are not worthy of such a heavy penalty. Losing "ships" and being banned from the post season because of poor record keeping? The only infraction that the staff had to be aware of was having "Team Managers" helping out with practice at times. The school and the NCAA went over the program with a fine tooth comb and came up with, you failed to document calls to recruits that were not answered?

Coach Murphy did not deserve to be fired over this and the kids in the program are the ones being hurt by these sanctions.

This is a cut/paste of the NCAA findings as reported by BA:

"The committee found ASU guilty of a series of violations that occurred over more than five years under former head coach Pat Murphy, consisting primarily of recruiting infractions, including the use of an impermissible recruiter and excessive phone calls. There were also violations involving coaching staff limits and paying 20 student-athletes a total of $5,889.34 for work not performed at Murphy's own nonprofit organization.

“While the institution always has a duty to monitor student-athlete employment, a head coach, when employing his own student-athletes, has his own duty to ensure the employment arrangement is permissible," the committee's report said.

The report also said Murphy requested four student-athletes to decrease all or a portion of their athletic scholarship during the academic year so that it could be provided to new or incoming student-athletes. And the committee specifically singled out several violations regarding the recruitment of catcher/DH Kiel Roling in the fall of 2006, including the impermissible involvement of former team manager Mikel Moreno—who accused ASU of recruiting violations in January of 2009 shortly after Murphy fired him. The university had started an internal investigation into the program in 2008, eventually leading to Murphy's ouster last November and the school's self-imposed sanctions in April."

Seems like it is more than phone call documentation.

And now on Rivals.com Kendall Rogers is saying he has just spoken to the NCAA and jr and senior players will be allowed to transfer out of ASU and not required to miss a year of eligibility ??????????

So does that mean they go to another college and displace and existing rostered player??? If so, what a mess.

CaBB,
That is fascinating and seems astounding.
ASU is placed on a one year post-season penalty and their players can transfer without penalty/sitting out.
Cal cancels their program completely, and their players cannot?
What kind of logic/illogic could support that type of distinction, I wonder.

This goes right back to the UNLV debacle, when the new coach basically said he'd be cleaning house and laying new carpet with his CSN guys. Did those jr and sr Rebels have an opportunity to transfer out without penalty? No.

I think ASU got off easy based on what I've been reading. They have to give up two scholarships either this school year or next, miss post season for a year and then are basically back in business.

Significant negative perceptions of Murphy existed locally. In the greater Phoenix area, the preception of ASU is, "now that Murphy is gone, it's a great place to go".

As a result of the post season ban, juniors and seniors can leave. A program like ASU really doesn't have seniors as they all get drafted. As far as juniors go, is the exposure and potential to get drafted seriously diminished by not playing in the post season? Probably not. It'll be interesting to see if any leave.

quote:

What kind of logic/illogic could support that type of distinction, I wonder.

Gee its the NCAA.Go figure!!

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
ASU is placed on a one year post-season penalty and their players can transfer without penalty/sitting out.
Cal cancels their program completely, and their players cannot?

Cal players can transfer without incurring any kind of penalty. The only issue under question is whether they can do so mid-year.
The Bylaw that Kendall mentioned for ASU players is 14.8.2. It requires a waiver, while the Cal players don't need one. 14.8.2 only says that the one-year residency rule can be waived, and mentions nothing about waiving the rule that says mid-year baseball transfers aren't eligible that spring.

We'll see what happens.

3FG,
I understood the ruling. The question still relates to the logic.
Reportedly, one Cal player is transferring to UCLA and will need to sit out this Spring.
I know cheapseats' son attended a DI program that dropped to DIII, and those players also could not transfer and play immediately.
ASU gets placed on NCAA post-season sanctions and players can transfer and play in the Spring of 2011.
Sometimes rules require logic and some rational thinking behind them.
Stretching my "gray matter" to places I didn't think it could stretch does not provide a
"rational" basis for a different application from one scenario to the other, for me at least.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
3FG,

I know cheapseats' son attended a DI program that dropped to DIII, and those players also could not transfer and play immediately.
ASU gets placed on NCAA post-season sanctions and players can transfer and play in the Spring of 2011.
Sometimes rules require logic and some rational thinking behind them.
Stretching my "gray matter" to places I didn't think it could stretch does not provide a
"rational" basis for a different application from one scenario to the other, for me at least.

I agree, it seems very inconsistent if ASU players can transfer between the fall and spring semester and be eligible to play in the spring of 2011. The NCAA rules explicitly state no mid-year transfers for baseball, even when the school is changing classifications or dropping programs. I have it clarified and confirmed in writing in a letter from the NCAA...

Just to clarify, regarding my son's team that is changing classifications (they are still DI this spring 2011 but they will be moving to DIII in fall of 2011), they can transfer after the spring 2011 season and play immediately (won't be required to sit a year) but they cannot transfer between the fall 2010 and spring 2011 semesters without sitting the spring 2011. Staying put and playing DIII beginning fall 2011 is also an option.

ASU was paying a couple of former player as managers because they could not be employed as coaches. When he had to let them go because it was brought to his attention that the program could be in violation for letting them on the field with the players, they raise a stink and report these "violations"?

Coach Murphy employed players at his camps as just about every Coach does. Over a five year period He can't document that every player worked every hour he was paid for? Kids showed up late or cut out early? What employer does not have to deal with that?

Yes, ASU approached kids in the fall and told them they were not going to play in the spring. They could hold on to their scholarship for the rest of the year but it would not be renewed and it would be better for the program if they transferred. It's an ugly part of big time DI baseball but it goes on in many places.

They had a world class workout facility encircled by the campus that they had a reciprocal relationship with and where the baseball players were allowed to work out. The workout facility got exposure and access to ASU's facilities.

As to the perception that ASU is now a great place to go, playing at ASU meant you were jumping in a shark tank. There were MLB draftees on slivers of scholarships, fighting for playing time. Coach Murphy demanded the best from kids every day on and off the field. If you wanted a professional career it was simply the best place to play. It may now be a different place to go, but I'm not sure it's better.

quote:

ASU was paying a couple of former player as managers because they could not be employed as coaches. When he had to let them go because it was brought to his attention that the program could be in violation for letting them on the field with the players, they raise a stink and report these "violations"?

Yes, they are known violations and someone with Murphy's experience would be fully responsible for knowing them.
I am sure we all come at this from different perspectives. Our son is a volunteer assistant trying to get his foot in the door. He does not and cannot get paid. .
It is well known in college baseball you can have 3 paid coaches and one volunteer assistant. More than 3 who do coaching cannot be paid.
Rather than minimizing what Murphy did by calling 2 coaches "managers" and paying them as coaches, which they were, I, frankly, am pretty disgusted Murphy did not receive more of a penalty for that issue alone, knowing how much of known violation it is and what an advantage it provides a program against those playing by the book.
What Murphy did, no matter how well meaning it was to pay "coaches" for tons of time and effort put in with making the players and team better, it is a significant violation.
Again, do I agree with the NCAA rule on volunteers? Heck NO! I hate it for all programs and "volunteer assistants" in every program.
The rule did not have a Coach Murphy "exception" and to my thinking, he is lucky, not a scapegoat to be commended as it relates to this particular situation.

quote:

They had a world class workout facility encircled by the campus that they had a reciprocal relationship with and where the baseball players were allowed to work out. The workout facility got exposure and access to ASU's facilities.

No...they had a contract with the facility's owner to train the baseball players at the facility. Therefore the facility owner should have been a countable coach per the NCAA ruling. In addition, he was not a hands on trainer...his employees did the training, and each of them should have therefore been a countable coach.

Training at this facility runs a player around a grand per month. The ASU players did not pay. Think that should be an issue??

quote:

ASU was paying a couple of former player as managers because they could not be employed as coaches. When he had to let them go because it was brought to his attention that the program could be in violation for letting them on the field with the players, they raise a stink and report these "violations"?

The whistle blower has been demonized in this community for the last 2 years...enough is enough. The program used manager/staff members in coaching capacities where they shouldn't have (and not just on the field BTW). Its a clear violation I'm sorry.

Plain old cheating by Murphy. I wish my son's program had more "coaches" too. My son's college coaches try to abide by the NCAA rules whether they like them or not. I don't care how successful the ASU program has been or how much you admire Murphy as a coach, he is a CHEATER, and the rules don't seem to apply to him.

Wonder what would happen if these violations, if confirmed, carried oh I don't know, POSSIBLE JAIL TIME for those guilty. Extreme? Yes. But the kids are paying the price while the coaches in some cases simply skip town. I'm also including boosters who violate NCAA rules. Watching the SMU 30 for 30 episode it's quite obvious that a few of the moneyed alum look at this as merely a behind the scenes game with no downside for them.

Just a thought.

By the way- according to Kendall Rogers on rivals.com the NCAA is saying only the SENIORS will be allowed to transfer and play immediately (not the juniors) as reported earlier.