ASU Coach Murphy Resigns

quote:

Originally posted by 3rdgenerationnation:
The 500 too many calls cited as a major violation were calls that did not get through to kids. The recruiters hung up when they reached a voice mail but failed to document the call unless they talked to a kid. the baseball staff is saying they did not know that call counted and they were to document those calls. That is why the school is getting hit with the failure to provide proper oversight.

Where does this information come from?

Although the calls are supposed to be documented, they do not count unless a person is spoken to on the other end. Hanging up on a voicemail does not count as a call to the household.

This IS a discussion board so I will throw this into the mix for the sake of discussion.....I heard (rumor mind you) that the calls were made from a private cell phones while Murphy and his coaches were on vacation??
I also heard (rumor) that at a select 50 camp a few years back, Murphy would joke about the NCAA stringent rules and boast how he could work around them, specifically how he only advertised the camp on line from 11pm -5am daily to meet the requirements of the NCAA but lessen the chances of the uninvited to sign up. I'm sure all coaches have their tricks, but Murphy seemed to Gloat a bit, I'm sure that wouldn't go over well with the powers to be.

My son was heavily recruited from ASU and there were no recruiting improprieties, no calls received that weren't supposed to (more than once a week), that I remember.
However, the pitching coach recruiting him left as have some under him.
Some people say you can't be in the business that long and be that successful without cheating somewhere, that may be true or untrue, if it is, I am sure it just doesn't happen there or just in baseball.
I was listening to the radio about all the garbage that goes on in football and basketball recruiting and the NCAA looks the other way, even in cases where rules have been broken.

Diamond Dog:

There are lots of rumors, and you are correct -- this is a discussion board. Nonetheless, the many, many rumors I have heard are mainly not true -- as is probably the case here. It's not really fair to a lot of people to perpetuate some of this stuff, especially this kind of stuff. I seriously doubt that Pat Murphy -- or any other coach -- would gloat publicly about how they were good at circumventing NCAA rules.

Time will tell where this all goes and the facts will become very clear sooner rather than later.

quote:

Originally posted by jemaz:
I seriously doubt that Pat Murphy -- or any other coach -- would gloat publicly about how they were good at circumventing NCAA rules.

Time will tell where this all goes and the facts will become very clear sooner rather than later.

I've worked a few of his games, but I really never got to know Murphy.

However, I have experienced other college coaches, in an apparent effort to impress me during a fit of pique, brag about how they're so important that their schools and the NCAA can't even touch them, so who the hell do I think I am telling them that they're suspended.

Well, if you are curious and are tired of all the rumors out there about why or what happened....

Here ya go....

List of Arizona State's Violations

Look at violations 1 and 9. The baseball staff is saying they violated the one call per week rule by placing calls to recruits and hanging up when they reached voicemail. The failure to document that they had made these calls was part of the lack of institutionsl control issue. When they reached a recruit and spoke to him they did document it.

That's what I was trying to explain in my earlier post. I've heard this from the radio station that broadcasts the teams games and from the coach staff through mutual friends.

A lot of this amounts to Coach Murphy trying to do what he thought was best for the kids and not giving enough attention to the details of compliance.

Every program has an NCAA compliance officer. His job is to ensure that all NCAA rules are followed and the program is in compliance with these rules. Its the HC job to make sure that the compliance officer is doing his job properly. In the vast majority of cases if not all, the compliance officer is a paid coach within the program. Paying attention to the details is what the compliance officer is paid to do. Making sure that the compliance officer is paying attention to the details is what the HC is charged with doing as part of being a HC. Every call regardless if someone answers or not has to be logged.

The list of rules violations is extensive. To say that these violations were just Coach just trying to do what was best for the kids is way out there imo. It appears he was doing what he felt would give his program an unfair advantage over those that were and do follow the rules.

I do not have all the facts and I am sure I never will. But it is very clear from their own admission that these calls were not properly logged. Coaches ask me all the time if I can have so and so give them a call because they have used up their one call. To call continuously and not log the calls reeks of something very fishy going on. I hate if for the program and the players still in the program.

I found #5 to be very interesting.

quote:

Former athletes, designated as student managers, performed on-field coaching duties during games and batting practices. Their involvement violated regulations that limit the number of coaches.

The baseball managers at my sons school had to wait for a ball to stop before they made an attempt to pick it up. Not by NCAA rules, but rather their athletic ability. The idea of having ex-players as managers is as under-handed as it comes. Team/player development is all about teaching and having extra "teaching" available beyond what is allowed is big time cheating in my book.

OK, he got caught. Can he just go to another program and start all over (or does he have to sit out a year?), while ASU faces sanctions?

Don't know but he should have to sit a year .

LOL BHD. Getting paid for work not done. Thats another doozy if true. Hey like I said I dont have the facts and I am sure there is alot more to this story. Maybe like Coach's side of the story. But it sure doesnt look or sound very good to say the least. I can tell you the programs I deal with on a rather daily basis are STICKLERS for making absolutely sure they dont even come close to pushing the limit on NCAA rules. It sure sounds like this program was lacking.

quote:

Originally posted by 3rdgenerationnation:
Look at violations 1 and 9. The baseball staff is saying they violated the one call per week rule by placing calls to recruits and hanging up when they reached voicemail. The failure to document that they had made these calls was part of the lack of institutionsl control issue. When they reached a recruit and spoke to him they did document it.

That's what I was trying to explain in my earlier post. I've heard this from the radio station that broadcasts the teams games and from the coach staff through mutual friends.

A lot of this amounts to Coach Murphy trying to do what he thought was best for the kids and not giving enough attention to the details of compliance.

I seriously doubt that that's the crux of the calls. First of all, only calls that are completed, and answered by an individual count as "contact". A call answered by voicemail is not "contact". They may have failed to document those calls, which is a violation, but that's not what the complaint alleges.

Secondly, when the NCAA informed Murphy and ASU that they were investigating, they gave specific instructions that the coaches were not to discuss the events between themselves. Murphy and his staff not only discussed it, they made notes and spreadsheets. So beyond the original problems, they violated the rules of the investigation. That makes you wonder why, doesn't it? Why would innocent people knowingly get their stories straight when specifically told not to?

.
We have not talked about compliance departmemts much on the HSBBW, but there are an interesting issue.

In our experience there is wide variation betwen programs in how closely they comply. Some schools are squeaky clean, others at the rules, others slightly over, others flount them. The compliance deaprtments SHOULD be independent to the level that they can do their job without intereference. Common sense would dictate that if the rules infractions in this case are so aggregious, and going on this long, that the institution was willingly turning the other cheek or going along....in which this was both a coach and a larger institutional issue. If they are this aggregious, then the NCAA should have seen this long ago, in which case they are just as guility.

44
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CPLZ I agee. But I read that they were in violation of not logging all calls regardless of contact. Maybe I read it wrong or maybe they didnt charge them with this infraction.

O44


There is also a huge variation in how compliance people interpret the NCAA rules and all the "grey areas".

quote:

Originally posted by Vicarious Dad:

OK, he got caught. Can he just go to another program and start all over (or does he have to sit out a year?), while ASU faces sanctions?

I think the Coaches who are flagrantly abusing the NCAA rules should have to sit out for an extended time. Heck, the kids do so why shouldn't they?

Look at Kentucky's basketball coach - John Calipari. He put 2 programs into probation yet he gets off scott free and goes to an even bigger (D1) program. Does that sound fair to those he has ruined dreams of?

Kudos to Bobby Knight for blasting him the the public court of opinion!

quote:

Originally posted by Vicarious Dad:
OK, he got caught. Can he just go to another program and start all over (or does he have to sit out a year?), while ASU faces sanctions?

Why could Pat Murphy not go to another school? John Calapari did after he got both U Mass & Memphis placed on probation.

I thought Coach Knight made a very valid point. You go to two final fours with two different programs. Both final fours are vacated because of NCAA violations while under your watch as a coach. You then are hired by one of the most storied programs in college basketball. You as the HC are not held to at least the same standard that a player is?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
O44

There is also a huge variation in how compliance people interpret the NCAA rules and all the "grey areas".

Exactly. And agreed.

Either compliance departments are poorly trained on exactly how the NCAA expects the rules to work, or they are willfully intrepreting them in their favor, and/or the larger portions of the institutions are looking the other way, or the rules are so poorly written that grey areas exist to be exploited easily.

Whichever reason....the rules are not being enforced equally or tightly. If the allegations are true then where has the NCAA been for the last few years? Particularly when many in the general population have claimed for years that the program was bending interpretations. And frankly maybe you can see why the institution itself gets dinged, they should have both knowledge and control.

44
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I suspect Murphy won't be getting another job real soon, since ASU is paying him through 6/30/11.

Haven't seen his contract's fine print, but I would imagine if he accepts another job and starts taking a paycheck, the $300K+/yr ASU is paying him stops.

Not many other programs out there paying $300K/yr...

quote:

Originally posted by observer44:
Either compliance departments are poorly trained on exactly how the NCAA expects the rules to work, or they are willfully intrepreting them in their favor, and/or the larger portions of the institutions are looking the other way, or the rules are so poorly written that grey areas exist to be exploited easily.

Or compliance departments don't have the stones or authority within the university to stand up to the pressures put on them to look the other way while coaches go about their business of trying to win championships.

ASU had already been on probation, and was on probation during the first couple of years of the alleged violations.

What do you think is going on in the Kentucky compliance department these days with John Calapari there? Do you think the AD is in the compliance department telling them, "Keep an eye on this guy, we want to make sure he's clean and doing it right"?

I doubt there's as much ignorance as they'll be feigning in a couple of years when Calapari moves on and leaves another school in his wake of violations.

Please forgive my skepticism...I can't help it.

OK, I just read his bio. 21 years as a head coach? He knows better. NCAA should ban him for life.

CPLZ, if they're already on probation, are they looking at the death penalty?

quote:

Originally posted by Vicarious Dad:
OK, I just read his bio. 21 years as a head coach? He knows better. NCAA should ban him for life.

CPLZ, if they're already on probation, are they looking at the death penalty?

They aren't still on probation, that expired. However they were still on probation the first two years of the alleged 5 years worth of violations. I'm not sure how that's handled.

BTW...One of the Coaches who is no longer at ASU got The U (Miami) in trouble for the same exact infractions. The time frame for these new infractions occurred while he was still at ASU. FIU might be thinking twice about how good their compliance office is right now.

quote:

Look at Kentucky's basketball coach - John Calipari. He put 2 programs into probation yet he gets off scott free and goes to an even bigger (D1) program. Does that sound fair to those he has ruined dreams of?

Kudos to Bobby Knight for blasting him the the public court of opinion!

Although I completely agree with what coach Knight said, I have to say I thought that was one of the most pot calling the kettle black moments I have ever seen. I sat there watching that in complete disbelief that Bobby Knight was preaching ethics.

As long as there are schools and alumni associations that care more about W's than ethics these coaches that have success (even if it's through cheating) will always find a new job.

quote:

Although I completely agree with what coach Knight said, I have to say I thought that was one of the most pot calling the kettle black moments I have ever seen. I sat there watching that in complete disbelief that Bobby Knight was preaching ethics.

Bobby Knight's players graduated and as far as I know he never violated a single NCAA rule.

Yes, some of his coaching antics were interesting, but not illegal...

quote:

some of his coaching antics were interesting, but not illegal

Well, choking a kid counts as assault and battery. For which he was disciplined. He should've been prosecuted. There is nothing about it happening in an athletic setting that makes that not a crime.

To say Bobby Knight was clean in some parts of his life doesn't matter. I'm sure John Dillinger had some aspects of his life where he didn't cross the line, either.

The guy was repeatedly shown to lack self control, judgment, or any humility. I would never have wanted my kid to have played for him. A horrible example to college kids, or to those watching the game, of what a grown man ought to be.

Coach Knight was an old school hard a**. Every player that ever signed with IU knew that going in. Did he cross the line with the way he treated his players? Yeah I think he did. Did he act like an idiot at times throwing chairs etc? Yeah I think he did. But his players graduated. He ran a clean program.

quote:

Haven't seen his contract's fine print, but I would imagine if he accepts another job and starts taking a paycheck, the $300K+/yr ASU is paying him stops.

If he was fired "for cause", typically per the contract they would owe him nothing. What commonly happens is, the school alleges "cause", the coach contests it, and they settle out of court for something in the middle. The school wants to settle to avoid airing the dirty laundry in public. The coach wants to settle to make sure he gets a payout. And the up-front payout typically allows the coach both to keep the money AND take a new job. Nice work if you can get it.

I would be willing to bet he takes a year or two off and resurfaces at another program.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
If he was fired "for cause", typically per the contract they would owe him nothing.

According to documents obtained by the FOI act, he was terminated without cause, and voluntarily resigned and is being paid.

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:
Or compliance departments don't have the stones or authority within the university to stand up to the pressures put on them to look the other way while coaches go about their business of trying to win championships.

ASU had already been on probation, and was on probation during the first couple of years of the alleged violations.

What do you think is going on in the Kentucky compliance department these days with John Calapari there? Do you think the AD is in the compliance department telling them, "Keep an eye on this guy, we want to make sure he's clean and doing it right"?

I doubt there's as much ignorance as they'll be feigning in a couple of years when Calapari moves on and leaves another school in his wake of violations.

Please forgive my skepticism...I can't help it.

Would agree with all this...even the cynical part. A good cynic is part idealist; knows all the ways things can be twisted yet still believes that it can be done right and is the first to celebrate those rare instances when it is scruitinized and judged clean.

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Amazing to me how people compare Bobby Knight to the likes of Calipari---how Calipari's programs go on probation and he walks away clean as a whistle is beyone me

I can tell you this about Knight from a personal aspect---he recuited my son as a basketball player and his fist letter did not talk hoops--it talked about his grades being what was needed to play for Knight and stay eligible--and it was not a form letter---Digger Phelps, when he was at Notre Dame did the samer thing--academics first--hoops second

It is also funny how people want to crucify "Murph" at ASU and all the facts are not known--crazy world--I would have no problem with any of "kids" playing for either Knight or Murphy-seems to me they make men out of HS boys--

quote:

Amazing to me how people compare Bobby Knight to the likes of Calipari---how Calipari's programs go on probation and he walks away clean as a whistle is beyone me

I read an article about Bob Knight this past year where Sonny Vaccaro said people claim the college game passed Bob Knight by and that's why he couldn't win big anymore. Vaccaro said the only part of the game that passed Knight by is the cheating. Knight stayed clean. Vaccaro stated he believes there are only four clean coaches in college basketball.

My son saw a video on ESPN where Knight grabbed a Texas Tech player by the front of his shirt and got right in his face. My son asked what was the big deal. He said the player didn't show the right respect for his coach by not looking him in the eyes while being spoken to.

And who is Sonny Vaccaro to talk about ethics and clean behavior !!!!--he is at the root of AAU basketball problems which continually get swept under the rug

While I have issues with Sonny Vaccaro and his association with amateur basketball, I believe he understands the inside of the college game. From having been associated with Nike, Adidas and Reebok he understands the funny business that goes on in the connection between the sneaker companies, AAU basketball and college recruiting.

RJM

I may be wrong but I do believe that he started the "funny business" in basketball recruiting

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
RJM

I may be wrong but I do believe that he started the "funny business" in basketball recruiting

It was called "Sneaker Wars." It's why he would know who's clean and who isn't/wasn't.

For those who don't follow basketball Sneaker Wars was about a strong coincidence of colleges with certain sneaker contracts ending up with players from AAU teams with contracts with the same sneakers. To this day sneaker companies are speculating on players for future contracts by supporting their AAU teams with equipment.