as a coach for a hs or travel team how are you coping with the evergrowing sttitude of entitlement on the part of the players and parents/
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quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
as a coach for a hs or travel team how are you coping with the evergrwing sttitude of entitlement on the part of the players and parents/
TR, I see this same “theme” in many different places now-a-days, where today’s kids have a feeling of entitlement or privilege, but I wonder if its as pervasive as its made out to be. I’m certainly not sticking up for anyone, but it sure seems to me that it would be virtually impossible to play the game with 100% or even more than 5-% of the players feeling that way, so I have to assume the actual percentage has to be some number less than half. So, based on your experience, what is your estimate of the percentage of kids who feel that way?
Talking about only HS now, I can say that every team I’ve been involved with, which is really the only way to tell who feels that way and who doesn’t, I’d say it varies, and it truly depends on location. Our school is definitely attracting more students from upper middle income families than most schools in the area, and we have our share of those kids who somehow feel they’re owed something. But its seldom more than a couple kids, and the coach doesn’t put up with much of that kind of thing for very long, and an offender will definitely find himself on the bench, and if its bad enough, off the team.
So, a coach definitely had a lot of control over the situation, but no matter what, there’s always gonna be that one kid or maybe two who’s talent is so enormous, even the most grizzled coach is gonna overlook some things.
So in the end, I don’t really know if the problem of kids with an attitude problem has really grown in the 50 years or so since I was in HS, or if its just a perception. I can see how it might be more of an issue in travel ball though. After all, the only part $$$ plays in HS sports really applies to most of the kids going to that particular school. But for travel teams its very different. $$$ plays a much more prominent part in it, and typically a travel team will have a higher percentage of “stars” than a HS team.
Stats, I definitely agree with you that it depends on the area you reside in. I read a lot of posts on this site that make me wonder how can things be so different in different cities or states.
But I do think there are a lot more players who are worried about THEIR STATS or THEIR APPEARANCE, than about the TEAM. My strong belief, though, is that it doesn't come from them, but from the parents....and I know I'll tick off a lot of folks on HSBBWEB, but often the players who play in a select program in the summer seem to be the worst offenders.
I think it is because so many of the parents on the select or traveling programs are focused on their son getting exposure, or getting to the next level. The high school team doesn't provide that, in their opinion, so it doesn't have quite as much value. Therefore it is not as serious or not as important. The kids KNOW that this is how their parents feel, and so many of them begin to feel and act the same way.
I try to explain to the parents every year that I would expect them to follow their son the most, and look out for him; it is only natural. However I am looking out for everyone on the TEAM, and I need to try to get everyone behind what is best for the TEAM, not any particular individual.....
It is amazing though, how many parents clearly don't agree with this or don't get the impact of doing what is best for the team, and encourage or direct their son to do what is best FOR HIM, in contravention to what the coaches want to do. And I really see this much more from the more talented players who are in select programs.
If this is what TR is referring to, I definitely think it exists in a lot of players; I just think it begins quite often with the parents.
But I do think there are a lot more players who are worried about THEIR STATS or THEIR APPEARANCE, than about the TEAM. My strong belief, though, is that it doesn't come from them, but from the parents....and I know I'll tick off a lot of folks on HSBBWEB, but often the players who play in a select program in the summer seem to be the worst offenders.
I think it is because so many of the parents on the select or traveling programs are focused on their son getting exposure, or getting to the next level. The high school team doesn't provide that, in their opinion, so it doesn't have quite as much value. Therefore it is not as serious or not as important. The kids KNOW that this is how their parents feel, and so many of them begin to feel and act the same way.
I try to explain to the parents every year that I would expect them to follow their son the most, and look out for him; it is only natural. However I am looking out for everyone on the TEAM, and I need to try to get everyone behind what is best for the TEAM, not any particular individual.....
It is amazing though, how many parents clearly don't agree with this or don't get the impact of doing what is best for the team, and encourage or direct their son to do what is best FOR HIM, in contravention to what the coaches want to do. And I really see this much more from the more talented players who are in select programs.
If this is what TR is referring to, I definitely think it exists in a lot of players; I just think it begins quite often with the parents.
quote:how are you coping with the evergrwing sttitude of entitlement on the part of the players and parents/
to be honest I am not coping. I did it for 25 years and have been out 12. I sort of saw the handwriting on the wall as to what was coming. I talk to coaches and they tell me instances that if i was coaching now I would have said or done something that would have gotten me fired. something like telling the kid to stop whining and if the parent gave me a hard time I would tell him or her off. sorry but that is just the way I feel. I was talking to a high school coach this past year and he relayed some of the situations he had to deal with. Seems like he spent more time putting out fires than coaching. No thanks.
running my own program is certainly easier that coaching high school I have nobody to answer to. when my graduated high school I was offered the varsity coacing job---my answer was simple I told the AD you do not want all those parents at your office door every morning---he laughed and shook my hand---to thisday we are the best of friends
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
running my own program is certainly easier that coaching high school I have nobody to answer to. when my graduated high school I was offered the varsity coacing job---my answer was simple I told the AD you do not want all those parents at your office door every morning---he laughed and shook my hand---to thid we are the best of friends
While I understand there are lots of “pressures”, on a HS coach, or any coach for that matter, I’ve never really understood why the relationship of coaches to parents is so often portrayed as so adversarial. Coaches have certain responsibilities and so do parents, but they really aren’t different, because they’re both “supposed to be” aimed at the best interests of the kids.
What seems to be at issue, is that parents feel they have the right to comment on what a coach’s responsibilities are, and coaches feel they have the right to comment on how parents raise their children. Trouble is, parents responsibilities are pretty much inviolate, while coaches only represent one facet of the school’s curriculum.
It’s a very thin tightrope to walk, because so often coaches feel their responsibilities are on the same level as what the parents’ are. But I think if more people would like you, admit to themselves that they aren’t willing to concede the parents’ role is a superior one and just find another venue for their desires to coach, everyone would be a lot better off.
Stats don't lump all coaches and all parents into the same basket. They are simply not all the same. I knew what I wanted to do and I did it. I wanted to run a program that taught young men how to play the game and how to use the lessons used on the baseball field for success in life as well. It is not my job to tell any parent how to raise their kid. It is not my job to tell any parent how to run their household. I set expectations for the players. They can be a part of the team or not be a part of the team. It is not my job to make players like me. It is their job to make sure I like them. If they do that we will like each other. I never had a problem reaching this goal with the players in my program.
I never had problems with parents. Parents dont play on the team. Parents dont coach the team and I dont raise their kids. Yes there are coaches who have problems. Yes there are parents who have problems. I have been very fortunate to have oustanding parents who let me do my job. Coaches get in trouble when they allow others to coach their program for them. Coaches get in trouble when they spend each day trying to make players like them.
This is how we are going to do things. You can either choose to do it like this or choose not to play for us. If you have a negative attitude you will not be around here. If you have an "attitude" you will not be around here. My parents have always been supportive and simply outstanding people. Some of the best people I have ever been associated with. My players have always been outstanding young men who I simply love to death. The ones that can not do it the right way "the way I expect it to be done" simply are not part of our program.
I never had problems with parents. Parents dont play on the team. Parents dont coach the team and I dont raise their kids. Yes there are coaches who have problems. Yes there are parents who have problems. I have been very fortunate to have oustanding parents who let me do my job. Coaches get in trouble when they allow others to coach their program for them. Coaches get in trouble when they spend each day trying to make players like them.
This is how we are going to do things. You can either choose to do it like this or choose not to play for us. If you have a negative attitude you will not be around here. If you have an "attitude" you will not be around here. My parents have always been supportive and simply outstanding people. Some of the best people I have ever been associated with. My players have always been outstanding young men who I simply love to death. The ones that can not do it the right way "the way I expect it to be done" simply are not part of our program.
Let me just add that I have many friends that coach at the HS level and they would say the same thing I just posted. I could never have done what I did at the hs level without my parents assistance in so many ways. And many of my players dads were directly responsible for them coming into hs with the ability to contribute for us. Yes I know of some coaches who have issues with parents and kids with bad attitudes. But I will not comment on why I think this happens. I will just leave that one alone and enjoy my meal I am about to eat.
quote:I have been very fortunate to have oustanding parents who let me do my job.
coach may
you are very fortunate to say the least
quote:But I will not comment on why I think this happens.
As with many things it happens because it is allowed to happen
Well CM, I’m sorry if you took it that I was trying to lump all coaches into any mold. But I wasn’t trying to do that anymore than trying to lump all parents together. I was only commenting on how I find it so sad that there seems to be any angst at all between the two.
I’m very happy to say that my personal experience has on the whole been extremely gratifying and positive, but unfortunately it hasn’t been the idyllic picture you’ve painted. Perhaps its because you’re a fantastic person who fully comprehends all people and never fails in communicating. Me, I’m just a normal guy who has lots of prejudices and failings, and no matter how hard I try not to, I make mistakes.
I’ve found that to be the case much more often than not. People are people, and when people who fail to keep the common goal of enriching the kids they’re responsible for, I find there will inevitably be problems. I don’t think those problems come from any kind of maliciousness, but rather that the kids get lost in the tug-of-war between two factions that can both be very powerful and influential.
In the end, its my position, and the position of every school official I’ve ever discussed it with, that parents are always the ultimate authority over their children. Coaches, like other teachers, are there to pass on knowledge and do their best to create good people, not necessarily good team members or ball players.
The roles sometimes do get muddled though, and that’s always too bad, because if one digs deeply enough, they’ll generally find any problems come from some kind of misunderstanding because of someone’s poor communication, rather than a real clash of philosophies. And more times than not, I’d guess the communication problem comes from the child. But without a doubt there are definitely times when the parents have created a problem, and to reject the idea that there are coaches who have caused problems too is pretty naive.
As I think about the various times I’ve been involved in or seen “problems”, I think I can best describe the situation as where someone wasn’t being treated, or perceived he wasn’t part of the ”team”. I do believe that since “Pursuing Victory with Honor” has become the philosophy of so many schools, things have gotten much better. Here in Ca, just having everyone’s responsibilities codified, including the players, coaches, administrators, and parent has made things a lot better because its improved understanding, and I assume it’s the same for other places who that have implemented the program as well.
I’m very happy to say that my personal experience has on the whole been extremely gratifying and positive, but unfortunately it hasn’t been the idyllic picture you’ve painted. Perhaps its because you’re a fantastic person who fully comprehends all people and never fails in communicating. Me, I’m just a normal guy who has lots of prejudices and failings, and no matter how hard I try not to, I make mistakes.
I’ve found that to be the case much more often than not. People are people, and when people who fail to keep the common goal of enriching the kids they’re responsible for, I find there will inevitably be problems. I don’t think those problems come from any kind of maliciousness, but rather that the kids get lost in the tug-of-war between two factions that can both be very powerful and influential.
In the end, its my position, and the position of every school official I’ve ever discussed it with, that parents are always the ultimate authority over their children. Coaches, like other teachers, are there to pass on knowledge and do their best to create good people, not necessarily good team members or ball players.
The roles sometimes do get muddled though, and that’s always too bad, because if one digs deeply enough, they’ll generally find any problems come from some kind of misunderstanding because of someone’s poor communication, rather than a real clash of philosophies. And more times than not, I’d guess the communication problem comes from the child. But without a doubt there are definitely times when the parents have created a problem, and to reject the idea that there are coaches who have caused problems too is pretty naive.
As I think about the various times I’ve been involved in or seen “problems”, I think I can best describe the situation as where someone wasn’t being treated, or perceived he wasn’t part of the ”team”. I do believe that since “Pursuing Victory with Honor” has become the philosophy of so many schools, things have gotten much better. Here in Ca, just having everyone’s responsibilities codified, including the players, coaches, administrators, and parent has made things a lot better because its improved understanding, and I assume it’s the same for other places who that have implemented the program as well.
Stats....Agree with several things you said, especially about some parents feeling they have the right to comment on what a coach's responsibilities are, and coaches who feel they have the right to comment on how a parent raises their child.
I think one of the other things you said, though, is the root of the problem....you said that both coaches and parents responsibilities are "supposed to be aimed at the best interests of the KIDS"....
Again, that, to me is the problem. I believe that my responsibility IS to the KIDS (plural), and not to YOUR KID (singular). But almost all parents are looking out for the best interest of THEIR KID (singular), often at the expense of the TEAM (plural)
I try to get the kids and the parents to understand that as much as we want each individual to succeed, it is so the entire TEAM also succeeds. Do you think most parents sit and watch a game and think: "Gee, I hope Johnny hits a home run so that we can win this game?" No, they hope Johnny hits a HR because he is their son, they want him to be successful and have the praise and admiration of the fans, teammates and parents. Again, it is only natural. We are proud of our kids when they do well, and we hope they get recognized for their achievements.
As a coach, I am thrilled when my kids do something well and I love watching them do something great. But I am LESS likely to be happy if we lose even though a kid had an outstanding effort. Good for him, but we still lost. Hopefully, the player himself is not happy about the outcome of the game if we lose, and his excitement about his performance is tempered by the fact that we didn't win the game.
I don't think most parents are really going to be upset about things if we lose, but their son plays well. Why? Because most of them are not invested in our program the way we coaches are, or the way the players are. And that's OK...but it shows why we might have a conflict when I do something that i feel is best for the TEAM, and that thing might not be the best thing for Johnny. There is where the adversarial relationship sometimes comes in.
I understand that there are coaches out there who are not treating kids fairly and are playing kids because they are a buddy's kid or something like that. But I think it is somewhat rare. Most of us make decisions so the team is successful and we play kids who we think deserve it because of work ethic, ability and attitude....if YOUR kid doesn't turn out to be the kid with the best work ethic, ability and attitude, and doesn't play that much, are you going to look at the situation objectively and say that the coach is doing what's best for the TEAM, or are you more likely to think you're kid isn't getting a fair shake?
That situation is when the animosity might arise. The coach is just trying to do the right thing for the greater number of players, but the parent is having a hard time seeing that over the fact that their kid isn't playing. I don't think the coach is doing wrong, and I don't think the parent is wrong for feeling they way they feel. But in the end, if the coach's motives are "pure", it would be nice if a parent could understand that and accept what the coach is doing. I just don't think it happens that often.
I think one of the other things you said, though, is the root of the problem....you said that both coaches and parents responsibilities are "supposed to be aimed at the best interests of the KIDS"....
Again, that, to me is the problem. I believe that my responsibility IS to the KIDS (plural), and not to YOUR KID (singular). But almost all parents are looking out for the best interest of THEIR KID (singular), often at the expense of the TEAM (plural)
I try to get the kids and the parents to understand that as much as we want each individual to succeed, it is so the entire TEAM also succeeds. Do you think most parents sit and watch a game and think: "Gee, I hope Johnny hits a home run so that we can win this game?" No, they hope Johnny hits a HR because he is their son, they want him to be successful and have the praise and admiration of the fans, teammates and parents. Again, it is only natural. We are proud of our kids when they do well, and we hope they get recognized for their achievements.
As a coach, I am thrilled when my kids do something well and I love watching them do something great. But I am LESS likely to be happy if we lose even though a kid had an outstanding effort. Good for him, but we still lost. Hopefully, the player himself is not happy about the outcome of the game if we lose, and his excitement about his performance is tempered by the fact that we didn't win the game.
I don't think most parents are really going to be upset about things if we lose, but their son plays well. Why? Because most of them are not invested in our program the way we coaches are, or the way the players are. And that's OK...but it shows why we might have a conflict when I do something that i feel is best for the TEAM, and that thing might not be the best thing for Johnny. There is where the adversarial relationship sometimes comes in.
I understand that there are coaches out there who are not treating kids fairly and are playing kids because they are a buddy's kid or something like that. But I think it is somewhat rare. Most of us make decisions so the team is successful and we play kids who we think deserve it because of work ethic, ability and attitude....if YOUR kid doesn't turn out to be the kid with the best work ethic, ability and attitude, and doesn't play that much, are you going to look at the situation objectively and say that the coach is doing what's best for the TEAM, or are you more likely to think you're kid isn't getting a fair shake?
That situation is when the animosity might arise. The coach is just trying to do the right thing for the greater number of players, but the parent is having a hard time seeing that over the fact that their kid isn't playing. I don't think the coach is doing wrong, and I don't think the parent is wrong for feeling they way they feel. But in the end, if the coach's motives are "pure", it would be nice if a parent could understand that and accept what the coach is doing. I just don't think it happens that often.
quote:Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
Well CM, I’m sorry if you took it that I was trying to lump all coaches into any mold. But I wasn’t trying to do that anymore than trying to lump all parents together. I was only commenting on how I find it so sad that there seems to be any angst at all between the two.
I’m very happy to say that my personal experience has on the whole been extremely gratifying and positive, but unfortunately it hasn’t been the idyllic picture you’ve painted. Perhaps its because you’re a fantastic person who fully comprehends all people and never fails in communicating. Me, I’m just a normal guy who has lots of prejudices and failings, and no matter how hard I try not to, I make mistakes.
I’ve found that to be the case much more often than not. People are people, and when people who fail to keep the common goal of enriching the kids they’re responsible for, I find there will inevitably be problems. I don’t think those problems come from any kind of maliciousness, but rather that the kids get lost in the tug-of-war between two factions that can both be very powerful and influential.
In the end, its my position, and the position of every school official I’ve ever discussed it with, that parents are always the ultimate authority over their children. Coaches, like other teachers, are there to pass on knowledge and do their best to create good people, not necessarily good team members or ball players.
The roles sometimes do get muddled though, and that’s always too bad, because if one digs deeply enough, they’ll generally find any problems come from some kind of misunderstanding because of someone’s poor communication, rather than a real clash of philosophies. And more times than not, I’d guess the communication problem comes from the child. But without a doubt there are definitely times when the parents have created a problem, and to reject the idea that there are coaches who have caused problems too is pretty naive.
As I think about the various times I’ve been involved in or seen “problems”, I think I can best describe the situation as where someone wasn’t being treated, or perceived he wasn’t part of the ”team”. I do believe that since “Pursuing Victory with Honor” has become the philosophy of so many schools, things have gotten much better. Here in Ca, just having everyone’s responsibilities codified, including the players, coaches, administrators, and parent has made things a lot better because its improved understanding, and I assume it’s the same for other places who that have implemented the program as well.
There's not a whole lot more that I can add that Coach May, TR and TCB1 has said except that I'm a head coach who has had problems with parents. It was ugly and it was something completely stupid. I don't feel I was at fault with it but I didn't help solve the problems either. Thankfully I had a principal who backed me 100% and it turned out well because those parents phased out when their kids graduated. I had several other parents tell me that they were glad I stood up to them because they always brow beated coaches into what they wanted. But that doesn't mean all parents are like this and I know now that I would handle things much more differently while still not giving in on my principles. I was young and it was my first head coaching job. I made mistakes but I learned from it not all coaches do and not all parents realize they were part of the problem either.
I take a slightly different approach than Coach May - now I want to include parents as part of my team. I tell everyone that there are three components to my team - the coaches, the parents and the players and without the players then we don't need the other two so we need to focus on that. I tell them straight up that they are focused only on their son and I get that but they have to understand that I focus on every kid and they have to get that. Each of us have their own role - coaches coach and determine what directiong the program goes (nobody else has a say in these things). Parents support and help raise money for the program (if the parents don't want to do a pay for play then we need to raise money). Players play and help with fundraising (it's their money they need to earn it).
The chief is the head coach and everyone needs to understand that. There is no discussion as to who is in charge but I am approachable. Everyone has a say but since I'm the one who can be fired over anything I'm making the final decisions. If parents or players or my coaches don't agree with it then they have every right to leave the team.
quote:Originally posted by TCB1:
I think one of the other things you said, though, is the root of the problem....you said that both coaches and parents responsibilities are "supposed to be aimed at the best interests of the KIDS"....
Very nice post.
Again, that, to me is the problem. I believe that my responsibility IS to the KIDS (plural), and not to YOUR KID (singular). But almost all parents are looking out for the best interest of THEIR KID (singular), often at the expense of the TEAM (plural)
I have to say, that is a very important point, and here’s part of another problem. I was thinking that way, but didn’t mention it! Its as though it was a given, but sadly it isn’t.
quote:I don't think most parents are really going to be upset about things if we lose, but their son plays well. Why? Because most of them are not invested in our program the way we coaches are, or the way the players are. And that's OK...but it shows why we might have a conflict when I do something that i feel is best for the TEAM, and that thing might not be the best thing for Johnny. There is where the adversarial relationship sometimes comes in.
Absolutely right on!
quote:… The coach is just trying to do the right thing for the greater number of players, but the parent is having a hard time seeing that over the fact that their kid isn't playing. I don't think the coach is doing wrong, and I don't think the parent is wrong for feeling they way they feel. But in the end, if the coach's motives are "pure", it would be nice if a parent could understand that and accept what the coach is doing. I just don't think it happens that often.
People acting in a way that’s not unselfish or greedy has somehow not been something that’s passed on in genetics. In fact, just the opposite is true. And that’s where nurture is such a big part of the equation.
Again, very nice post.
quote:Originally posted by coach2709:
There's not a whole lot more that I can add that Coach May, TR and TCB1 has said except that I'm a head coach who has had problems with parents. It was ugly and it was something completely stupid. I don't feel I was at fault with it but I didn't help solve the problems either. Thankfully I had a principal who backed me 100% and it turned out well because those parents phased out when their kids graduated. I had several other parents tell me that they were glad I stood up to them because they always brow beated coaches into what they wanted. But that doesn't mean all parents are like this and I know now that I would handle things much more differently while still not giving in on my principles. I was young and it was my first head coaching job. I made mistakes but I learned from it not all coaches do and not all parents realize they were part of the problem either. …
WOW! Another great and insightful post!
You point out what might be the most important part of the entire paradigm, experience. Unfortunately, all coaches have a period of inexperience, where their lack of having faced and handled a situation in the past helps them resolve one facing them at the moment. But usually someone tapped as a HS HC has had that experience to some degree by having been an asst or been a HC at some level before. But even so, it still takes at least a few years to get one’s “sea legs”, and develop his support “network”, and I’m guessing that in most cases, that’s when the lion’s share of the really big problems happen. But usually, unless the guy is a dullard or does something really stupid, they get through it, and things get much smoother because he can see them coming, plus do some things to reduce the bumps in the road.
But parents are an entirely different matter. Most are like me, and have only one kid that goes through the program. Many times there’s more than 1, but folks like one family we have here who had 4 boys all go through it are rare. So generally, the parents only have 4 years to “get it”, and most only have 2 years to “get it” on the V. That makes it very difficult, and so problems are to expected.
In the role of devil's advocate and I know this could create a fire storm but here goes...
The issue being discussed is Coach has the team in mind, parents and players have themselves first.
Coaches benefit from the team winning games. See if this sounds familiar...Coach X has won 400 games, 18 district, 9 regional and 4 State titles in his 25 year coaching career. You might get a mention of the one or two kids that made it to MLB or got drafted high. Better yet the HS team is the stepping stone to better coaching positions. There is nothing wrong with this becasue if coach doesn't win games he isn't a coach anymore. It is his second job requirement with the first being taking care of the well being of the players.
So other than the coach why should anyone care about the HS team? Can anyone name one thing that's in it for the player or parent if the team wins 30 games or 2? A trophy? Glory days bragging on a bar stool in 2020? Some level of self actualization?
The answer is they get nothing or very little of material value. The counter to this is that kids learn to work as a team or sacrifice for the greater good. This is the most over hyped aspect of sports. You can be part of a team anywhere. McDonald's, Walmart and every grocery store in America is a team. Realistically kids would learn significantly more about life, dealing with people and responsibility in those places than on any sports field or court. So the team thing really doesn't hold a terrific amount of value given the alternatives that exist that are better ways to gain that experiance, not to mention cash.
Most folks here espouse that kids are or should be taught to compete and succeed. So if there is friction over opportunity isn't that a natural thing? Do coaches really want players that don't want to play? OK coach I'll sit on the bench and be happy to have a jersey. It would be hard to believe that a lot of coaches would be thrilled with that level of pliabiliy.
Shouldn't parents be advocates for their minor children? I understand that kids have to stand on their own two feet but trying to ensure that the playing field is level seems well within the purview of a parent. If the school wasn't teaching well enough would the parent be meddlesome if they show up in the principles office? Actually, that might be a good idea in a boatload of places and much more productive than showing up at the coaches doorstep!
So are today's players lazier, more selfish or have a entitlement mentality more than the past? I am inclined to say that is probably so at some level but it is not as pronounced as people might think. Times and people change. What Bear Bryant did at Texas A&M might get him time in jail today. We have to be better off for that kind of abuse disappearing. I just don't think kids are significantly different then their counterparts were in the past. The antagonism between kids who think they should be in the lineup and the coach who thinks he has better options has been going on forever. Come back in 50 years and it will still be there. The big difference is that today it is more acceptable to complain about it openly.
One last thought is that at the HS level way too much significance is placed on sports and the role they have. IMO the biggest contribution sports have is that they fill up kids time with a generally positive activity that keeps them out of trouble and physically fit.
The issue being discussed is Coach has the team in mind, parents and players have themselves first.
Coaches benefit from the team winning games. See if this sounds familiar...Coach X has won 400 games, 18 district, 9 regional and 4 State titles in his 25 year coaching career. You might get a mention of the one or two kids that made it to MLB or got drafted high. Better yet the HS team is the stepping stone to better coaching positions. There is nothing wrong with this becasue if coach doesn't win games he isn't a coach anymore. It is his second job requirement with the first being taking care of the well being of the players.
So other than the coach why should anyone care about the HS team? Can anyone name one thing that's in it for the player or parent if the team wins 30 games or 2? A trophy? Glory days bragging on a bar stool in 2020? Some level of self actualization?
The answer is they get nothing or very little of material value. The counter to this is that kids learn to work as a team or sacrifice for the greater good. This is the most over hyped aspect of sports. You can be part of a team anywhere. McDonald's, Walmart and every grocery store in America is a team. Realistically kids would learn significantly more about life, dealing with people and responsibility in those places than on any sports field or court. So the team thing really doesn't hold a terrific amount of value given the alternatives that exist that are better ways to gain that experiance, not to mention cash.
Most folks here espouse that kids are or should be taught to compete and succeed. So if there is friction over opportunity isn't that a natural thing? Do coaches really want players that don't want to play? OK coach I'll sit on the bench and be happy to have a jersey. It would be hard to believe that a lot of coaches would be thrilled with that level of pliabiliy.
Shouldn't parents be advocates for their minor children? I understand that kids have to stand on their own two feet but trying to ensure that the playing field is level seems well within the purview of a parent. If the school wasn't teaching well enough would the parent be meddlesome if they show up in the principles office? Actually, that might be a good idea in a boatload of places and much more productive than showing up at the coaches doorstep!
So are today's players lazier, more selfish or have a entitlement mentality more than the past? I am inclined to say that is probably so at some level but it is not as pronounced as people might think. Times and people change. What Bear Bryant did at Texas A&M might get him time in jail today. We have to be better off for that kind of abuse disappearing. I just don't think kids are significantly different then their counterparts were in the past. The antagonism between kids who think they should be in the lineup and the coach who thinks he has better options has been going on forever. Come back in 50 years and it will still be there. The big difference is that today it is more acceptable to complain about it openly.
One last thought is that at the HS level way too much significance is placed on sports and the role they have. IMO the biggest contribution sports have is that they fill up kids time with a generally positive activity that keeps them out of trouble and physically fit.
quote:The big difference is that today it is more acceptable to complain about it openly.
and complain to the right people in many cases you get what u want
I am not a coach so I have not had to deal with the challenges you fellows do. I think that people are more likely to complain due to "unmet expectations." If a coach assertively and clearly lays out the rules and expectations (assuming they are reasonable), then exercises consistency and treats people respectfully (I believe most coaches do) with good communication, there will be fewer complainers.
I really don't see it on the players side very often. I can only think of one kid that might make V this year who has an attitude and sense of entitlement. And he may not make it. Kids know when someone is better than they are. They see the other kids run, throw, hit and play d. Parents, however, rarely know unless it is very obvious. The only problems I have seen with players is when the coach hasn't a clue and is playing kids that should be on the bench. All of the kids seem to know the best nine.
If you are having a handful with the kids, let them pick a line up and scrimmage a few times. You may see something that you missed. Then let your Seniors who only have one year to win and you should get your best nine and the grumbling will go away.
If you are having a handful with the kids, let them pick a line up and scrimmage a few times. You may see something that you missed. Then let your Seniors who only have one year to win and you should get your best nine and the grumbling will go away.
Interesting topic. I am a fairly new and low-level HS coach (with more experience at younger levels), but also a parent of a freshman who has played fairly high-level select ball for a number of years, and will offer an opinion colored by experience from those angles.
The first thing that occurs to me is that a fair amount of this is a generational thing. Every generation thinks the one that follows theirs has it "too easy" or "doesn't work hard enough" and maybe even "has an attitude of entitlement." For the most part, I haven't seen it. Yes, there are societal differences from era to era, generation to generation, and I think it is natural to be uncomfortable with some of those and even long for "the good ol' days" but for the most part kids today are pretty much like kids have always been, IMO.
That's not to say that I haven't seen what some might characterize as "entitlement" issues from parents, and I think that is the more interesting part of this topic. And the extent to which we see this behavior from kids, it almost always takes root from the parents' actions, words, and attitudes.
Where does it come from, and why? I think there are two changes that create pressures that can lead to this kind of misbehavior (and let there be no mistake about it - no matter what the cause, there is really no excuse for "entitled" attitudes). The first is how the economy has tanked while the cost of higher education has continued to skyrocket. Parents of talented kids feel more and more pressure to push Junior along so that he can chase a scholarship (usually not understanding that, in baseball at least, the chase isn't that lucrative, at least without good grades leading to an academic scholarship supplement...). The other is the emergence of select baseball and how it has really completely replaced community/rec baseball above the age of 12 or so (and getting younger by the season).
The cost of select baseball adds to the pressure of finding that scholarship opportunity that many are already feeling in a down economy with skyrocketing educational costs. "I've sunk a year or two's worth of education money into this already, I'd sure like to think it will pay off with something in college!"
Because of this, I certainly agree with TCB1 that parents of select players are looking to get exposure for their kids, and in many (most?) parts of the country, select programs have supplanted HS programs as kids' "primary" team and means for getting that exposure. And this surely causes confusion for some between whether the needs of the individual or the needs of the team come first - and usually the confused ones are the parents of talented select kids who've not played sports themselves at a fairly high level; most others "get it" IMO.
Another thing the increasing presence of select programs and private instruction has done is increase the likelihood that a parent or player will perceive a conflict between what they are paying a select coach or private instructor to teach their kid, and what the HS coach (who may not have the professional baseball resume' and "instant credibility" of the select coach or private instructor) is trying to get them to do or buy into. Too often, the differences aren't real and are simply a matter of misperception and lack of communication among all the "players" (select coach, private instructor, player, parent, and HS coach). Too often there is little attempt to resolve this lack of communication, and instead you see parents simply discount what the HS coach has to say. And of course, this attitude trickles down from the parent to the player - it would be hard to imagine how it would NOT.
All of which is really too bad, but it is part of the new reality for coaches. Coaches who want to succeed need to be good, proactive communicators who know who their players are working with (on both sides of this), seek out "the other side" and get on the same page. Don't rely on the parent to be any kind of reliable conduit because they aren't as often as they are, and it isn't that hard to figure out which parents might present problems. Nip it in the bud.
My $0.02, for what it's worth (which is probably less than $0.02...).
The first thing that occurs to me is that a fair amount of this is a generational thing. Every generation thinks the one that follows theirs has it "too easy" or "doesn't work hard enough" and maybe even "has an attitude of entitlement." For the most part, I haven't seen it. Yes, there are societal differences from era to era, generation to generation, and I think it is natural to be uncomfortable with some of those and even long for "the good ol' days" but for the most part kids today are pretty much like kids have always been, IMO.
That's not to say that I haven't seen what some might characterize as "entitlement" issues from parents, and I think that is the more interesting part of this topic. And the extent to which we see this behavior from kids, it almost always takes root from the parents' actions, words, and attitudes.
Where does it come from, and why? I think there are two changes that create pressures that can lead to this kind of misbehavior (and let there be no mistake about it - no matter what the cause, there is really no excuse for "entitled" attitudes). The first is how the economy has tanked while the cost of higher education has continued to skyrocket. Parents of talented kids feel more and more pressure to push Junior along so that he can chase a scholarship (usually not understanding that, in baseball at least, the chase isn't that lucrative, at least without good grades leading to an academic scholarship supplement...). The other is the emergence of select baseball and how it has really completely replaced community/rec baseball above the age of 12 or so (and getting younger by the season).
The cost of select baseball adds to the pressure of finding that scholarship opportunity that many are already feeling in a down economy with skyrocketing educational costs. "I've sunk a year or two's worth of education money into this already, I'd sure like to think it will pay off with something in college!"
Because of this, I certainly agree with TCB1 that parents of select players are looking to get exposure for their kids, and in many (most?) parts of the country, select programs have supplanted HS programs as kids' "primary" team and means for getting that exposure. And this surely causes confusion for some between whether the needs of the individual or the needs of the team come first - and usually the confused ones are the parents of talented select kids who've not played sports themselves at a fairly high level; most others "get it" IMO.
Another thing the increasing presence of select programs and private instruction has done is increase the likelihood that a parent or player will perceive a conflict between what they are paying a select coach or private instructor to teach their kid, and what the HS coach (who may not have the professional baseball resume' and "instant credibility" of the select coach or private instructor) is trying to get them to do or buy into. Too often, the differences aren't real and are simply a matter of misperception and lack of communication among all the "players" (select coach, private instructor, player, parent, and HS coach). Too often there is little attempt to resolve this lack of communication, and instead you see parents simply discount what the HS coach has to say. And of course, this attitude trickles down from the parent to the player - it would be hard to imagine how it would NOT.
All of which is really too bad, but it is part of the new reality for coaches. Coaches who want to succeed need to be good, proactive communicators who know who their players are working with (on both sides of this), seek out "the other side" and get on the same page. Don't rely on the parent to be any kind of reliable conduit because they aren't as often as they are, and it isn't that hard to figure out which parents might present problems. Nip it in the bud.
My $0.02, for what it's worth (which is probably less than $0.02...).
