PG and TigerPaw Mom,
Certainly, one cannot disagree with anything you have said. TigerPaw Mom, of course, there is nothing wrong with Juco or DIII..that is not what I meant, really. In compiling the data I was only thinking about kids wondering "..what if?" For if the "averages" get a kid to think about what could be then the data serve their purpose from a motivational standpoint. But I hear what you're saying, and it's hard to argue with.
Velocity is a touchy subject, I know. Some say it's not important, and to others it is all-important. I tell my own son that velocity is not the show, it is just the ticket to the show.
By the way, PG, about 80 to 92 in one year? What was the difference? Was it just time and physical maturity?
Bum,
IMO - The increase was caused by a combination of the following. Not necessarily in this order.
1. Getting stronger
2. Change in mechanics and arm slot
3. Lots of off season work
4. Desire
5. Natural ability
6. Confidence
7. Good coaching
8. Increase in competition
I’ve actually seen the same thing happen to others. All of a sudden, at some point, a big spike in velocity. It has happened at young ages and it has happened in pro or college age groups.
I very much believe in most the things that were posted by “observer 44”, “EH”, “Smoky” and others… in the “Just how bad do you and your son want it” thread in this forum.
Probably the most important ingredient for reaching your dreams is to be stubborn and not listen to what people like me might tell you.
IMO - The increase was caused by a combination of the following. Not necessarily in this order.
1. Getting stronger
2. Change in mechanics and arm slot
3. Lots of off season work
4. Desire
5. Natural ability
6. Confidence
7. Good coaching
8. Increase in competition
I’ve actually seen the same thing happen to others. All of a sudden, at some point, a big spike in velocity. It has happened at young ages and it has happened in pro or college age groups.
I very much believe in most the things that were posted by “observer 44”, “EH”, “Smoky” and others… in the “Just how bad do you and your son want it” thread in this forum.
Probably the most important ingredient for reaching your dreams is to be stubborn and not listen to what people like me might tell you.
Bum,
No one said velocity is not important. I just feel that many put too much emphasis (for pitchers) on this for reaching their goals and dreams, too early.
Maybe I just come from a different generation of bb parents. If I told my young son about data analyzed between growth and increase in pitching velocity would get him a better scholarship or high draft pick he would think I was off my rocker. I don't think that would be the motivation he needed to help him reach his goal. I don't ever have to remember motivating son that way.
In reading PG's list above I can definetly say these were the things son could relate to and should be considered as an indicator and makes more sense for success than growth charts and velocity increases.
JMO.
No one said velocity is not important. I just feel that many put too much emphasis (for pitchers) on this for reaching their goals and dreams, too early.
Maybe I just come from a different generation of bb parents. If I told my young son about data analyzed between growth and increase in pitching velocity would get him a better scholarship or high draft pick he would think I was off my rocker. I don't think that would be the motivation he needed to help him reach his goal. I don't ever have to remember motivating son that way.
In reading PG's list above I can definetly say these were the things son could relate to and should be considered as an indicator and makes more sense for success than growth charts and velocity increases.
JMO.
My son threw 75, off the mound using a stalker, at PG late in the summer when he was 16. I was pretty happy as it was about as fast as he had been recorded. Late this summer, he turned 17 this past April, he threw 85 off the mound at a PG event, as measured with a stalker. A couple of weeks ago at an ACC school camp, an MLB scout clocked him off the mound at 88 (using a jugs). Based on this I would say he has picked up 10-11 mph in 12 months. He did this almost exclusively with conditioning, using a training program he got from an ex-Baltimore O's trainer, and long toss. 15 months ago he was telling me, "I guess I just don't have it in me to ever get close to 90, those kids are special". Now he's going into his senior year saying "if I bust my chops this winter, I think I can hit 90 consistently this coming season". It is amazing what a little hard work can do for you if you try.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
...velocity is not the show, it is just the ticket to the show.
Exactly. Velocity is needed to gain the opportunity. But it does not ensure success. As pointed out in Moneyball, Moyer might well not be drafted in today's environment.
Those who throw in the 90's and those who are 6'4" will be given multiple opportunties in spite of failures. We have all seen that.
A 5'11" kid throwing 89, even though he is a pitcher and not just a thrower, will work hard to get an opportunity.
That is just the way things are today. Some feel the pendelum is just starting to swing back toward pitchers rather than throwers. Perhaps it will change in time.
The bottom line:
All the player can do is work his hardest on all aspects of his game. His growth will be what it is. He can get stronger, get smarter, build endurance and hone his mechanics. He can sharpen his game skills by playing against tough competition.
Past that, what will happen will happen.
There would be less emphasis on velocity were not so many scouts and coaches fixated on velocity.
Texan son's pitching coach and I did not emphasize the gun readings for years. The focus was on building sound mechanics, mental toughness and pitching smarts.
At about 13 or 14, Texan son began to work on baseball oriented strength training. And on building endurance. Still, mechanics were the emphasis - not the gun.
His success over the years came from being a pitcher: thinking on the mound; using good pitch strategy; mixing things up; showing mental toughness. His velocity was only average.
Only within the past year or so has more emphasis has been placed on velocity.
He went from 79 mph in March to 84 in July (with someone besides dad running the Stalker
). Not fantastic. But not bad for an '08 who just turned 16 late this summer. His goal is to gain 6 mph more by next summer.Texan son knows he doesn't have to throw 90 to be successful. But he also knows that more doors will open if he does. And I can't deny that.
But he is focused on the right things. Working very hard on the things he can control - all the things listed above. And what will happen will happen.
And whatever happens, I will remain proud of him. Proud of the incredible work ethic he has developed. Proud of his accomplishments. Happy with the joy he has experienced playing ball.
Great attitude, Texan! I believe your son will be very successful on the mound.
Michael's Dad: Could you PM me a copy of that workout? I'd sure like to know more!
Michael's Dad: Could you PM me a copy of that workout? I'd sure like to know more!
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
Michael's Dad: Could you PM me a copy of that workout? I'd sure like to know more!
Bum;
I'll see if I can get him to write it down. He has it memorized from working with the trainer and has his days at the gym set with certain exercises.
Well, it's been nearly a year and I would like to update everyone on Bum Jr.'s "Average Velocity Increase" between his Sophomore and Junior year. Bum Jr. is a LHP. As the statistics in my thread showed, the average velocity increase expected is 3.79 between the sophomore and junior years.
At the PG 2008 National in August last year he threw 79 on the Stalker. At the Stanford camp, in June of this year, he was consistently hitting 86 on the Stalker. That is a 7 MPH increase! He has since committed to pitch for Washington State University and has been selected by the Seattle Mariners for the Mariner Cup in August.
His past offseason consisted of cardio, plyometrics, core work, long-tossing, band work, and weight training. But I credit most of the increase to long-toss; I think it is critical to attaining arm speed. I have been preaching long-toss for 5 years now and Bum Jr. has been doing it year-round, even in Winter.
Bum Jr. is only 5'10". Let's see how fast he is next year.. any guesses on what the "average velocity increase between the Junior and Senior year" would be? My thinking is if he gains 4 he could be in quite rarified air for a LHP (90 on the Stalker). God willing.
At the PG 2008 National in August last year he threw 79 on the Stalker. At the Stanford camp, in June of this year, he was consistently hitting 86 on the Stalker. That is a 7 MPH increase! He has since committed to pitch for Washington State University and has been selected by the Seattle Mariners for the Mariner Cup in August.
His past offseason consisted of cardio, plyometrics, core work, long-tossing, band work, and weight training. But I credit most of the increase to long-toss; I think it is critical to attaining arm speed. I have been preaching long-toss for 5 years now and Bum Jr. has been doing it year-round, even in Winter.
Bum Jr. is only 5'10". Let's see how fast he is next year.. any guesses on what the "average velocity increase between the Junior and Senior year" would be? My thinking is if he gains 4 he could be in quite rarified air for a LHP (90 on the Stalker). God willing.
Don't be surprised if the velocity and development to increase ratio remains constant relative to growth.
Also from high school through college years there can be a chronic period (flattening) in the bell curve.
Also from high school through college years there can be a chronic period (flattening) in the bell curve.
CASon's hurt again, but if his arm recovers I sure hope he gets even the 3.8 mph gain by his junior season.
I'd guess about 2 mph between junior and senior seasons.
I'd guess about 2 mph between junior and senior seasons.
From my analysis of the PG site, 1-2 is about average between the junior and senior seasons. The top players gained 3. Bum Jr.'s gain of 7 between the sophomore and junior seasons was off the chart statistically speaking, so I'm hoping with more hard work another nice jump of 4 is possible. Hitting 90 on a Stalker would put him right up there with the best. I was told by one college coach that he thought Bum Jr. was the best LHP he saw at the Stanford camp. He said he had plus command of three pitches and great mound presence. That observation made me sparkle. After all, it's not all about velocity.
CADad, I hope your son recovers soon.
CADad, I hope your son recovers soon.
Bum,
Thanks. I'm taking him to see a top doc on Tuesday so we'll know more then. It was a bit strange as he threw 75 pitches over 6 innings with no pain or soreness then went out to left field and felt pain in his elbow when warming up. We shut him down as soon as we knew about it, but a week later he was still getting twinges. Hopefully it is just a strain and after a month or so more rest he'll be able to start on a good throwing program to get his shoulder and everything in shape. He never really got to work the long toss properly this season due to throwing too often in games and the nature of the previous injury.
If CASon could add 5 mph between now and his senior season he'd be working 85-86 on the JUGs gun which would be plenty effective with his movement and command. He's also on the young side and there's hope for continued improvement.
Thanks. I'm taking him to see a top doc on Tuesday so we'll know more then. It was a bit strange as he threw 75 pitches over 6 innings with no pain or soreness then went out to left field and felt pain in his elbow when warming up. We shut him down as soon as we knew about it, but a week later he was still getting twinges. Hopefully it is just a strain and after a month or so more rest he'll be able to start on a good throwing program to get his shoulder and everything in shape. He never really got to work the long toss properly this season due to throwing too often in games and the nature of the previous injury.
If CASon could add 5 mph between now and his senior season he'd be working 85-86 on the JUGs gun which would be plenty effective with his movement and command. He's also on the young side and there's hope for continued improvement.
I sure wouldn't mind gaining 2 or 3 mph by this next spring, which would be my senior season.
During sophmore to junior season I put on 6-7 mph to top out at 89 mph a couple of weekends ago.
During sophmore to junior season I put on 6-7 mph to top out at 89 mph a couple of weekends ago.
J.Weaver.. excellent improvement! What was the most important thing you did to gain 7 MPH between your Sophomore and Junior seasons?
Would anyone like to share their experience on the MPH gain between the Junior and Senior years? What did you do to achieve that gain?
Would anyone like to share their experience on the MPH gain between the Junior and Senior years? What did you do to achieve that gain?
I can't really pinpoint one thing I did that helped my velocity improve that much.
One thing that I did do was enrolled in a P.E. class, Athletic P.E. We do all sorts of things in there, mostly core work outs, band work, explosive conditoning, ladders, all different kinds of things.
I think that gym class had a significant impact on my overall fitness level, which may have led to an increase in velocity.
I grew maybe an inch, and put on 5 pounds, so that definately wasn't it.
One thing that I did do was enrolled in a P.E. class, Athletic P.E. We do all sorts of things in there, mostly core work outs, band work, explosive conditoning, ladders, all different kinds of things.
I think that gym class had a significant impact on my overall fitness level, which may have led to an increase in velocity.
I grew maybe an inch, and put on 5 pounds, so that definately wasn't it.
In July before junior year, I topped out at 76. Then I went to a showcase in December and threw 84. Now in the summer I am consistenly 85-86, still maintaining good movement. The key for me was not necessarily to long toss every other day or every two days; on the contrary, it was throwing every day, whether it was long toss or 90 ft or throwing BP to my buddy. Throw as much as you can; ever wonder why 5-7 guys like Furcal and Reyes can throw 94-95 from short? It's because when they were younger they always had a ball in their hand, constantly getting the feel for what works and what adds more velocity/movement.
jrmbaseball,
You have a very good attitude, and your idea of (different kinds) throwing is a great idea. I would add that I like a consistent long-toss program (4-5x week) in that I firmly believe it adds arm speed.. something that BP throwing may not do. Also, consider adding band work (for arm health/joint stabilization), cardio (for endurance so you don't alter your mechanics when you're tired), and plyometrics for core strength. Core strength will give you velocity by maximizing your rotational drive. Finally, get a good pitching instructor to perfect your mechanics.
Good luck!
You have a very good attitude, and your idea of (different kinds) throwing is a great idea. I would add that I like a consistent long-toss program (4-5x week) in that I firmly believe it adds arm speed.. something that BP throwing may not do. Also, consider adding band work (for arm health/joint stabilization), cardio (for endurance so you don't alter your mechanics when you're tired), and plyometrics for core strength. Core strength will give you velocity by maximizing your rotational drive. Finally, get a good pitching instructor to perfect your mechanics.
Good luck!