Bad ball Players

I give the kids credit for trying out, despite whether they ever picked up a ball or not. Some kids just want to go out to play baseball for EXTRA CURRICULAR activity. There ARE many who have no aspirations other than being part of a team. The only kids/parents embarrassed on CUT day, are the ones who spent years paying for lessons, etc., but still could not make the team.
I know of a player who NEVER played baseball his whole life, but what an arm as a football quarterback. Coach needs arm on the team, as a freshman who will be taught the basics by the coach and some lessons, he should make a great contribution later on.

I have not met a player yet who spent years playing and parent's money on lessons that was embarrassed when they did not make the high school team.....never saw embarrassment, but did see tears.

Not all kids are meant to play baseball.....think it might have been Coach May who pointed out in a posting once....the difference between a football player, and baseball player......and that baseball took more training....think he posted he could take a baseball player and put him on a football field with anticipated success...but not the other way around..... Some kids are not going to get that training.....poor youth coaches and parents without the interest or financial means to make up the difference. Some kids don't have the talent to begin with....and there are probably a fair share going through the motions for Mom and Dad.....

And yes....give them all credit for trying out....

It all goes back to the HS ball versus select ball. There are exceptions, but many time HS baseball is a "high school activity" and I give credit to any kid, good or bad, that does something out of the 8-3:30 day.

quote:

Save your kid and the coaches the embarrassment of CUT DAY, it’s hard enough on the kids that can play and yet there isn’t enough room for them on the team.

I really dont know how to respond to this. What is embarrassment? Not being as gifted as others to play a game. As a parent I can think of a lot more things more embarrassing than cut day for a baseball team.

OK...I get emotional about this one, so BEWARE!
A discrepancy I see in our metro area is that some schools have a no-cut policy for freshmen and some don't. I firmly believe that the no-cut policy is best for 9th graders. They're trying so hard to find their niche in HS and playing a sport might be what keeps them on the right track. I know this is a financial issue, but if a kid wants to play sports his first year of HS, FIELD THE TEAM!
Our school went to the other extreme. A few years ago our coach cut 28 of the 40 or so FR who tried out and placed the rest of the FR on the "C". We were a the only school in the entire district that didn't have four teams (V, JV, C and D, which is the FR team). He justified this by saying those 28 would never play varsity, so why bring them into the program. He gave the "D" team's schedule to the "C" team so they would have more playing time. In our district, the "C" and "D" teams only play about 10-12 games.
You know, everyone grows and matures at different rates. Who was he to make that call about 28 kids who wanted to play?
IMO, we have lost sight of what HS sports are all about. Yes, Varsity is the highest level of baseball and should be for the best players, but the lower levels should be about making young boys into men. If they want to play, give them a chance. The schools should be helping ALL KIDS become rounded adults, not just the few who play at the top. This is what I want my tax dollars to do.
I know those 28 boys might never become Varsity players, but maybe they would have become better citizens by being allowed to participate in the great game of baseball, even if only for one year.
I warned you, I feel strongly about this!
BTW, my son was about 6 feet tall and a LHP. He made JV his FR year, so my attitude is not about being defensive after a bad experience. This is an issue which deals with the best interests of every kid who attends public schools.

obrady:

I can appreciate the point you are raising here...you wouldn't send your kid out there under the conditions you described and I wouldn't either, but the world is made up of all types of people.

A futile tryout may seem like a waste of everyone's time, but it may be serving some very useful purpose to those involved...I just don't know.

So long as the tryouts are wide open, then I would advise everyone to sit back and enjoy or endure...depends on your perspective.

There is a big difference in a kid that is not very talented and a kid who goes out for the team that could get hurt. We have had some come out that quite frankly could not catch at all. Not being able to hit is one thing. Not being able to throw is another. But standing there and someone throws a baseball at you and you can not defend yourself only attempt to get out of the way is another thing. We try very hard not to cut anyone unless we see it as a safety issue for the player. There have been some kids over the years that we have had to cut because they just could not play and we had a ton of kids come out. But by and large we only cut those that we feel are at risk by just being on the field. I dont think you can blame a coach for a kid showing up at a HS tryout and not being able to catch. You can blame a coach if a kid has played alot of baseball and has no clue in any of the fundementals of the game. But obviously if they are unable to catch they have not played very much if any baseball before the tryout.

Well said coach!

Please...HS baseball is an extra-curricular activity, the focus on "extra-curricular". Every student has a right to try out for any team or activity that he or she chooses. Part of high school is trying things and exposing oneself to new things. Not only do I applaud those students for having the courage to try new things, I applaud their parents who presumably are encouraging them to do the same. The joy is not always (or even should be) in the end result...the joy and lesson comes from the journey. And again, this is only HS baseball.

Coach May...
You always provide such good insight and I have learned from you on more than one occasion.
You have a very legitimate response and I agree with the safety issue.
I'm referring to the the kids who are of lesser skill who might never become varsity athletes, but are able to paricipate at lower levels. These kids might be labeled as "Bad ball players". I don't think for a minute that 28/40 FR that showed up and got cut would get hurt playing on a FR team with similar talent levels.

In our district we pay $65 activity fee when we enroll in the fall. This applies to any and all activities after school (sports, band, debate, drama, etc.). If your child doesn't participate in ANYTHING, you can request a refund at the end of the year. If a child is on free lunches, this activity fee is waived and they still can participate. We can afford to organize teams for kids to stay involved and out of trouble. Not to mention the obesity issues our nation faces.
OK...I'll stop now!

KCBaseball:

Your passion is appreciated...I see your point very clearly...I agree with you.

Don't feel like you have to stop now!

obrady,

three kids like those you describe tried out for our freshman team last year. they did not make the roster per se, but the coach let them stay on as "managers." Later that season, the "regulars" built up a huge lead on another team so the coach let the three managers bat. One got a hit, one walked and one hit the ball but made an out. In each case, the shear joy on the kids' faces was priceless.

I guess you would deny them this opportunity in the name of... of what?

Holden:

That's a good coach!

Those kids may have made it on obrady's team too...we don't know where the line was drawn.

My son's HS has a senior this year that hasn't played baseball in like 5 years. He is a football player, and a good one at that.

He came to the Varsity Coach and said that he'd be a bullpen catcher or whatever he needed, he just wanted to be part of the team. He worked with one of our best players this winter on his skills, was in the cages a bunch I hear.

So far in the one game I've seen him play, he will contribute to a very talented team.

Don't ever give up!

quote:

Originally posted by KellerDad:
My son's HS has a senior this year that hasn't played baseball in like 5 years. He is a football player, and a good one at that.

He came to the Varsity Coach and said that he'd be a bullpen catcher or whatever he needed, he just wanted to be part of the team. He worked with one of our best players this winter on his skills, was in the cages a bunch I hear.

So far in the one game I've seen him play, he will contribute to a very talented team.

Don't ever give up!

A couple of things with this...
he is an athlete,
he has worked on his skills,
and he understands his role

Nice story Keller

KellerDad:

quote:

Don't ever give up!

And this kid didn't! Good for him! He earned his spot!

I think often that kids that decide to try out for a sport at the HS level haven't had opportunities to participate. They and parents don't have a clue as to what the other athletes have put in with lessons, practices, games, etc. up until that point. They expect somewhat of a curve, but often don't understand until they go through the try-out process.

I think it's wonderful when a kid that hasn't played a sport or that doesn't have much skill in that sport has the guts to continue on through a try-out of possible contribute in some way to a team! It takes a lot more "guts" to try and put yourself out there in this scenario than the kid who has been allstar and worked on his skills for years. I applaud them!!!!

I've never been accused of being "the Great Communicator", and I knew that this discussion would get some of the "let them all play" folks. And I guess if there was time and money available for a school to have 5 or 6 teams great.

My main point was directed to parents; prepare you kids, don't wait until it's to late or expect someone else to do it, or worst think the high school will teach them to play.

But my experience is that our school has 3 teams of 12 to 14 kids each, the Varsity, the JV, and the Freshman team. Every year decent ball players are cut who "have' worked at being the best they can be.

We all know that at some point the game will pass everyone by. We also see kids who are pure athletes who can play any sport and can pick up a new one quickly but these folks are rare.

I do think some kids who are cut are embarrassed (first hand info from some of my son’s friends who didn’t make it last year). Maybe the next step is to have intramural teams so the average kid still has a place to play at school (we have county teams for those who don’t make it, oh and by the way, one kid who was cut last year because he didn’t have the necessary skills, showed up again this year and hasn’t seriously picked up a ball since last years try-out).

My point again; parents if you child wants to play a sport, prepare them to the best of your ability, don’t send them out to become lion chow!

I agree for the most part. But the scars from failure soon go away and valuable positive lessons can be learned and applied later in life. I think that as a parent we should stress that things like this happen and what can be learned from it. I've always tried to use the glass is half full analogy any time I've had to deal with a kid in a negative scenario. I think the worse thing that can happen is that a kid doubts his abilities before even putting them out on the table.

KCBaseball...

I am not a believer in the "everyone plays" theory when you reach the HS level.

There has to be a time when separation begins not to mention funding freshman teams is costly especially if you have 40 kids that need to be split up--top- keep parents happy you would need three teams --no way Jose !!!! it wont happen

I recall our HS having a modified team(similar to frosh) a JV and a Varsity--the modified team at times had 30 kids which was totally riduculous in my eyes

Also keep in mind that many schools do not condsider after school sports to be extracurricular--they are there to win--The recent posts regarding HS ball have been interesting--some want to give the coach the door because they do not win and others who want to have all the kids play--I say poppycock--- let the kids who get cut be be cut--it is all part of growing up and if the truth be known most of the frosh who get cut knew in their own minds that they had as slim chance of making the team anyway but they wanted to go out for it

I also do not think there are any "scars" left by being cut-- life will go on

when I coached I hated cutting kids but it was something we had to do. Evertime I hear the topic of no cut policy I sort of equate it with lettinh everybody into medical school who applies and then made them all doctors no matter if they were good bad or mediocre.

Will

great analogy

My sons HS is a well known Football school having a NFL Hall of Famer as an alumni....even though lately not as sucessful in Football.....

Baseball has always been a minor sport and the program had some lean years with wins and participation... forward on a few years and a new coach has a core group of dedicated ballplayers.....and to rebuild the program he basically had a no cut policy........but with the numbers they had before it was manageable.....2 Conference championship Years later, he finds the program full and for the first time in years is faced with cuts.......

And now his program has had an influx of Senior players who gave up baseball when they came to HS to concetrate on football. With another dismal season of football behind them, they are looking to join the baseball squad......

The outlook is for cuts this year.......and he is not looking forward to the parental fallout.......

quote:

and he is not looking forward to the parental fallout.......

I do not know a coach that does. In my experience there were a few cases from a personal phone call to the anonymous letter signed concerned parent to the coming up to school and waiting for me to yell and scream. I say these were isolated but as I talk to coaches the number of similar incidents has increased.

piaa_ump:

quote:

...and he is not looking forward to the parental fallout...

Who would? Nice to read that they have a good baseball guy running a successful baseball program...good for him and good for trhe kids!

Does it have to be all or nothing? Yes, cuts are necessary to field the strongest Varsity team. But its not possible to judge a 14-year-old freshman and decided he'll never be competitive. I believe in no cuts for FR class only. By the time the boys are nearing 16 years of age, you have seen their work ethic and growth by allowing them to play FR baseball and adjust to the rigors of HS. This can help help mold his entire 4 year HS experience. Baseball or no baseball.
Here in KC we don't have baseball in middle school. We don't have baseball class. Maybe its different than some other places. The saddest thing I've seen is kids who get to HS and flounder, trying to find their spot. They end up in big trouble. Keep them busy, keep them active, keep them playing sports and out of trouble. This is public HIGH SCHOOL funded by public tax dollars, not the pros.

Who's to say what's worse?

1 Demoralizing a sub-par player and angering his parents by keeping him on a team and never giving him any meaningful playing time or

2 Disappointing a kid by cutting him.


I like what I heard in another post where kids are cut but allowed to continue to work out with the team in some capacity of they want.

quote:

Originally posted by KCBaseball:
The schools should be helping ALL KIDS become rounded adults, not just the few who play at the top. This is what I want my tax dollars to do.

What's the role of the parent, if the schools are responsible for educating and making well rounded adults?

Yeah their are some really bad kids this year in my school, are 9th grade is sepret from the high school. But their are some pretty bad kids trying out for just freshman and some that are just as bad trying out for jv. But one reason so many of these bad kids try out is probly something to do with of how supported and how much the coaches from all the sports push everyone weather your good or bad.

Collikar....

quote:

What's the role of the parent, if the schools are responsible for educating and making well rounded adults?

I'll handle the stuff at home but I have no clue how to coach baseball. Also, I only have 3 kids and can't field a team.

I'm talking about the life lessons learned by playing a team sport. School is more than just books.

Collikar...could be wrong....but I think KCBaseball said "helping"...not assuming full responsibility....he seems to expect the educational system and it's administrators to "help" him as a parent.....I couldn't agree with him more....and I've worked in education....

....and I'm also the parent of a player who played all through high school....didn't warm the bench......and I say it's too bad we can't accommodate any and all players at the freshmen level.....but when it doesn't happen.....and cuts have to be made.....usually, at least in the high schools I've worked in....there are many other school sponsored opportunities for kids to get involved in.....if they are not baseball material probably better to find out sooner instead of later....and get involved in something else....and as parents....think it is good for us to recognize this and steer them in the right direction.....

LadyNmom:

All of that is very reasonable, especially your thoughts in the second paragraph. Baseball isn't for some people, just like the arts are not for some people either.

KC ~

I concur that it takes a village to raise a child, but imo the ultimate responsibility is on the parent. If a child doesn't have skills by high school, who's responsible for that? You don't have to have a team, to work on skill developement. You have to be willing to give time to help your child become successful. I might not coach baseball, but I know how to use my resources in order to help my children be successful. I realize this isn't the case for all, but I feel like the school's responsibility is to educate first and the rest is a bonus. JMO

The boys that continue to play baseball without taking a couple of year's off have a better chance of making the HS team.
Players that stop playing at 12yrs old and then try to pick it up at 15 yrs old are way behind the boys that continued to play the game.
They might think in there head hey I was pretty good when I was 12, and want to pick up wear they left off. Only to find that the sport is much tougher now.
My son's Freshman team had a practice squad.
And they would practice and go thru all the drills, separate from the teams.
some of the practice squad members would quit as the season went on. Not wanting to waist there time.
But for those who stuck it out, they were rewarded with playing time at the last few game's of a Championship year for the Freshman team. They all recieved a patch and were as happy as a clam at high tide.

Hey, the title of this post was bad baseball players. I realize now what obrady was trying to get across.

A bad baseball player to me, is one who has played for years and can't get the job done. Someone trying out for the team and never playing is not bad, just inexperienced.

Kids are smarter than we give them credit for, they know the odds of making a team when they haven't played in years. For whatever reasons they decide to try to hook up, good for them!

I believe that larger HS should have 3 teams, freshman, JV and varsity. This gives the coach opportunity to put together a varsity team of players who have been in the program for a few years. Son's HS used to have 3 teams, but due to lack of funds, they dropped the freshamn team, which hurt our program as not every player who played was an elite player. The growth of stronger travel teams and elite teams off season also has done this to programs. The HS that still have freshman teams, field the best varsity teams in the district. JMO.

Tiger Paw Mom,
I would not blame the Travel/ Elite teams for the Demise of
HS baseball.
I believe HS baseball is alive and maybe not well, But is and always will be apart of the HS scene.
Parents will see to that.
Parents must get involved in a positive way to secure funds,
that can be used to bring up the program at there school.
and due it early on, before your childs even in high school,
so things will be better when he or she does attend.

I know that at my son's school Freshman play freshman ball, Sophmores play JV.
There's 2400 students, and we are considered small in are area.
Remember that the player's that just want to be part of the game, are also the Fans that fill the Stadiums that watch the Pro's Play.
They want to be able to say, I remember when I was playing??

EH,
You are corect in everything that you say, but I have seen the emise of teh freshman programs in many schools here in Florida so I can only asume it may be from travel ball, not sure.


The biggest problem I occured as fund raising chair for many years as it took about 25K a year to run our program. Many parents were not supportive, they believed that the school should support the program. I often found these parents who came with that attitude also to be ones to complain about coaching. They did nothing to help raise funds, yet their sons made teh team becausethey could play. Then we had parents who raised money, or wored concession whose sons sat on the bench, it got crazy after awhile, but the coach sttod fast adn didn't let politics get in teh way. For that I gave him a lot of credit, he deserved the job!

I first heard the "for the safety of the player" argument in little league. It was mostly from coaches who did not want a weaker 12 year old on their team and I supported the view that every 12 year old plays majors. Didn't buy the safety issue and I don't buy it now.
The reason:
When my son was a high school senior he came home one night and raved about a junior who was trying out for the team, had not played in high school...and was signficantly impaired from a stroke when he was 3 years old. Left him with a significant disability in his left leg and arm..could barely hold and control the bat. What did he rave about? This player worked harder than any player on the team. He set an example of courage, effort, tenacity and the joy of being a team member. Will never forget his first, and only, hit that year. Will never forget the head coach of perhaps the top team in our area raving how that young man impacted the game where he got that hit. Will never forget training and running a marathon with that young man when he turned 20...and I was much older. I will never forget how he got his teammates and others to support the American Heart Assn with the efforts and dollars. I will never forget that young man is now a very good friend who is now a college graduate in his first job who called me today to have lunch and talk about his sales position. I will never forget that his coach and teammates supported him and didn't find the reasons he couldn't play. They found the reasons he could succeed. In our talks while training for the marathon I learned all about the things he encountered that are included in some posts here and how one team/one year/one group of players and coaches changed his view of himself and his life. I am proud he is my friend and proud he played and made the team...and got the coaching that removed the issue of "safety" as an "excuse." He was a very "bad ball player" and a great person who is even better, in part, because of that year of high school baseball.
I really disagree with the message this thread conveys to me...just in case that didn't come through clear.