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23 replies

Balk Called Throwing to Third

KrakatoaKrakatoa1,000+ posts
I inquired about this many months ago and never got a clear answer because I don't think I was clear in describing the situation. Let me try again. This occurence has been bugging me ever since, and I just can't figure out what happened. Umpires, please help!

The situation: kid is pitching with a runner on second. Kid is in the stretch (or possibly still getting the sign - can't recall). Next thing I know, the runner on 2nd breaks for third. The pitcher tosses over and they get the runner fairly easily. HOWEVER, the umpire says the runner gets the base because the picther balked.

I was not able to ask the ump to clarify what happened because this was at a showcase and I was way up in the stands. I wasn't going to argue at all, I was just very confused (still am!) and it would have been a great learning opportunity for me.

The only things I can think of that might have caused this (and I just can't remember all the details) is that:

1) pitcher did not come to a distinct pause before throwing to third and/or had not broken from the rubber???

2) pitcher made the throw to third while on the rubber, but never took a step toward third???

What other things could have possibly caused this? Those are the only two I can think of. Any others? I just want to make sure I help my pitcher with this and cover all the possibilities. I'm thinking it HAD to be something to do with him not breaking from the rubber (and I can't recall if he did or didn't), just because a pitcher who has broken from the rubber is pretty much freed up to do anything.....?

It seems to me that the runner knew exactly what he was doing, and had seen SOMEthing in the pitcher's sign-set-delivery that tipped off that this would probably be the outcome - safe on a balk. I can't for the life of me figure it out, though. I'm worried it'll happen again if I can't figure it out.

"I would be lost without baseball. I don't think I could stand being away from it as long as I was alive."
Roberto Clemente #21
"I would be lost without baseball. I don't think I could stand being away from it as long as I was alive." Roberto Clemente #21
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KrakatoaKrakatoa1,000+ posts
Linear,
I don't recall him doing anything except throwing over to third from the set. Even if he'd lifted his leg slightly, he could still wheel and throw to third, I believe?? I wish I'd been taping it, 'cause it's going to bug me forever!!!
This was at a big underclass showcase, so I'm reluctant to say the ump blew the call. I think they bring in some very experiebced guys to work these events. It's just something that may remain an Unsolved Mystery.
S spizzlepop1,000+ posts
Krakatoa,
I stand corrected. The following from MLB rules. A balk shall be called when...
"the pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base,except for the purpose of making a play."
It would seem then that the ump must have called it on something else, like the pitcher not stepping "directly" at the base. Or maybe he mis-interpreted the rule (as I did).
KrakatoaKrakatoa1,000+ posts
spizzlepop, it sure is a strange one, no doubt. Since it's so unusual, I guess I shouldn't worry that it'll happen again. It just threw my son for a loop, and he was a little paranoid for awhile -- but I think he's long forgotten it (unlike me!!) I just like to be able to offer guidance when soemthing goes wrong, but just haven't been able to help him out here - frustrating. But I guess I should just move on!! walk
KrakatoaKrakatoa1,000+ posts
If the unoccupied base rule is always applied in this case, it's giving runners a huge green light to run at will whenever the pitcher is getting the sign or is in the set. The pitcher has to be able to throw SOMEwhere, doesn't he? I'm guessing if the pitcher breaks contact with the rubber AND steps towards that base, it could not be called a balk. If blue is not clear on whether or not the pitcher broke contact, he may call a balk. I guess the ump also has to gauge the intent of the runner. I read in Bagonzi's book that the unoccupied base stipulation should NOT count as a balk when the runner is clearly h-e-l-l bent for leather to get to that base.
I surely don't know for sure!!
Last edited by Krakatoa
P pilsner500+ posts
Krakatoa,

While a number of things could go into an explanation, I'll stick to your original post here.

You stated that you weren't sure if the pitcher was fully set or still getting the sign. The pitcher is not required to pause or come to a discernable stop before throwing to a base. The requirement to pause only applies prior to a pitch to the batter. Therefore, he should not have been called for a balk for that reason.

Whether the pitcher legally broke from the rubber with his pivot foot or not would determine if he needs to step toward the base that he's throwing to. If he steps back off of the rubber with his pivot foot first then he can throw to the base without stepping toward it. If he doesn't step back first, he must clearly step toward the base with the non-pivot foot ahead of the throw.

In your post you stated that the runner was thrown out "fairly easily" at third base. This indicates that the base runner was, in fact, attempting to steal. (not a bluff) If this is so then the pitcher should not be called for a balk for throwing to an unoccupied base. He is permitted to throw to an unoccupied base if it is in an attempt to put out a runner.

Now, I didn't see the play so I don't know which scenario applies. The umpire called a balk for:
a) Throwing to an unoccupied base. (blown call)
b) Not stepping toward base while in contact with rubber. (good call)
c) Pitcher didn't pause before throwing. (blown call)
d) Pitcher didn't step toward base after stepping back with pivot foot. (blown call)

Hope this helps but without seeing the play it's hard to determine which one applies. Only the ump (and maybe the coach) knows for sure.
Last edited by pilsner
KrakatoaKrakatoa1,000+ posts
Thanks, guys. I think we've pretty much narrowed it down to the possibility that he threw over to third from the set position and in contact with the rubber. I've kind of gone through the motions in the living room and it makes the most sense. He saw the runner out of the corner of his eye, heard the yelling to throw over and did so - via arm action only (not a long throw)....thus the balk.
That would be my best guess based on the input received here.
Thanks again!
B Bear1,000+ posts
Bottom line: LHP coulda/shoulda be skilled in shutting down the running game, even more so than RHP.

Should a lefty snap throw over to 1b while on the rubber and R1 is put out by 1b, it is a great move. However, if seen by the umpire, it is a balk! LHP must step off on snap throws to 1b from stretch position.

Strategically, LHP snap throws are to prevent ball clubs from running on initial movements.

A few college programs (with players whose speed from 1b to 2b is 3.1 seconds) are pitch running on initial movements and exposing the defense ability to demonstrate:

pitcher must
- accuractly throw to 1b and

1b must
- catch P throw,
- transition (glove to hand),
- move his feet and turn body,
- provide a near perfect throw to MinF
- Minf must catch and tag.


Krakota,
Sounds to me as if LHP may not have turned properly (in the umpire's view point) to throw to 3b to tag advancing runner!

- Pitcher did NOT need to pause when NOT throwing to batter.

- Giving the player the benefit of the doubt, the umpire blew the call. (Don't they all......and especially at a showcase!).

- The other thought is a recruiting head coach wanted to see how the lefty would react (or over-react) to a set-up call by the umpire (since it was a showcase!)

Regards
Bear
C cpttuna10+ posts
after reading what information was provided, as an umpire on the field, i would have called a balk only if the step toward third came after throw to third.if the pitcher was in contct with the rubber, then the step towards third would have to come first. if the runner from second was stealing, then third base can not be considered unoccupied.
L LIONS10100+ posts
This is a balk if your kid did not break the rubber first, if he didn't then it is ruled throwing to an unoccupied base. He must first step back and break the rubber (now he is a fielder not a pitcher and he can throw anywhere.) It depends on if your kid was still on the rubber when he threw the ball, if he wasn't then it is a blown call.

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