Skip to main content

First time here and need help with a situation that occurred in the recent U13AA USSSA Kansas state championsip.

 

Situation:

 

No outs.  Runner on first and batter hits a double advancing 1st base runner to third base.  Now no outs, runners on second and third.  Plate umpire walks onto field, turns his back to the pitches and leans over to brush off home plate.  Is the play still live in this situation and can the pitcher pick of a runner while the umpire is cleaning the plate?

 

Thank you 

Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Originally Posted by noumpere:
Originally Posted by Golfman25:

I would think not.  Umpire had time out. 

How do you know that?  You can brush the plate without having time out.  You can have time out without brushing the plate.

 

So, in the OP, if the umpire had declared the ball dead, then no play can happen; if he didn't, then it can.

What umpire worth his salt would brush the plate without time being out? 

I've seen this happen before.  Runner on third.  Ump bends down to brush plate without actually calling time.  Runner on third tries to take home with pitcher and catcher are having a chat halfway between home and the mound while ump is cleaning plate.  Runner takes out ump on slide into home.  

 

Ump sends runner back to 3rd saying "time was implied".  Coach comes out to argue with ump.  Lots of back and forth about respecting the game and then the Coach was EJ'd.  I'm with the ump in the spirit of the game thing in that you have time when he was bent over and you should respect that.  But I can see an argument for the fact that he never really called time.

Originally Posted by Golfman25:
Originally Posted by noumpere:
Originally Posted by Golfman25:

I would think not.  Umpire had time out. 

How do you know that?  You can brush the plate without having time out.  You can have time out without brushing the plate.

 

So, in the OP, if the umpire had declared the ball dead, then no play can happen; if he didn't, then it can.

What umpire worth his salt would brush the plate without time being out? 

Lots of us.  Depends on the level (of play and the umpire), how dirty the plate is, the number of umpires, etc.

Originally Posted by noumpere:
Originally Posted by Golfman25:
Originally Posted by noumpere:
Originally Posted by Golfman25:

I would think not.  Umpire had time out. 

How do you know that?  You can brush the plate without having time out.  You can have time out without brushing the plate.

 

So, in the OP, if the umpire had declared the ball dead, then no play can happen; if he didn't, then it can.

What umpire worth his salt would brush the plate without time being out? 

Lots of us.  Depends on the level (of play and the umpire), how dirty the plate is, the number of umpires, etc.

So you're saying that when you brush the plate, with your back to the action we can play on?  That's a good way to take a fast ball right up the old wazoo.   

Questions for the more experienced umpires:

 

Is there any reason I would NOT want to call time before cleaning the plate with runners on base?

 

I can think of bad/crazy/controversial things that could happen if I don't call time, but I can't think of a negative consequence to calling time.

 

I do call time in this situation. I step in front of the plate and make an understated "time" gesture before turning around and working the brush.

 

I don't know if I was taught this, copied it, or just started doing it.  I have no recollection of it being discussed in training.

 

Is this something you stop doing once you reach a certain level of ball?

 

In general, we don't call time unless there's a need to do so. I have gone entire games without calling time outside of situations in which the ball is automatically made dead (HBP, foul ball, etc.) So, if there's no need for me to call time to brush the plate, then I don't. I've got other eyes that can handle the runners and the ball.

 

The need to call time to brush the plate is probably inversely proportional to the level of ball being played. 

The OP had runners at 2nd and 3rd.  With a runner at 3rd I'm definitely calling time before turning my back to the infield to do housekeeping.  Granted, a pick off attempt at 3rd or 2nd would be called by the field ump but if the runner at 3rd decides to make a break for the plate because the defense may be sleeping that could get dicey.

Additionally, I'm a bit surprised that this thread wasn't on the "Ask the Umpire" forum.

Last edited by pilsner

We're supposed to clean the plate (insert emoji for hand slap to forehead)

 

If I'm doing the game alone, I call time.

If I have a partner, I catch his eye and he knows what I'm doing. I take a quick peek at 3B and decide whether I think the runner has any designs on coming home. No sense cleaning it, if he/she is going to mess it up again. Then bend over and make quick work with my brush - no need to make it clean enough to eat off, wide generous sweeps on the corners... Should take about 2-3 seconds. I trust my partner will warn me if the runner decided to make a dash for it... If I "interfere" with any ensuing play, then I know how to handle that (unless it's the winning run and I've been there 6 hours already ;-) just kidding)

So can the pitcher pitch while you are cleaning the plate?  I would have my pitcher pitch if you did not call time.  This makes no sense.  If you are literally taking out your brush you should clean the plate or you get what you deserve.  I've never seen a good umpire not call timeout when he cleans the plate in college, minors, or the pros.  He may not say it but he throws hand up and then puts it back in play when he is done and ready.

Matt, John F, & piaa_ump:

 

You guys are all more experienced umps than I, and you seem agreed that it's not necessary to call time to clean the plate.

 

Is the reason based on a pre-disposition to keep the ball live and avoid unnecessary stoppages, signals, and calls? Is it that with more experience, you have confidence to keep a lighter hand on the reins? Or is there something else going on?

 

I know I can respond appropriately to a situation in which a coach attempts what PitchingFan suggested (in jest, I think), and I can do so in a manner that discourages similar shenanigans by anyone who remains in the game after such a breach of decorum.  But throwing my hands in the air for a fraction of a second before cleaning the plate seems like a cheap insurance policy. Otherwise, any action that occurs while I'm brushing is likely to lead to an argument.

 

What am I missing?

 

Seriously, I'm not trying to argue. Trying to learn.

 

Originally Posted by PitchingFan:

So can the pitcher pitch while you are cleaning the plate?  I would have my pitcher pitch if you did not call time.  This makes no sense.  If you are literally taking out your brush you should clean the plate or you get what you deserve.  I've never seen a good umpire not call timeout when he cleans the plate in college, minors, or the pros.  He may not say it but he throws hand up and then puts it back in play when he is done and ready.

I've never seen an umpire do that at those levels unless necessary.

Originally Posted by Swampboy:

Matt, John F, & piaa_ump:

 

You guys are all more experienced umps than I, and you seem agreed that it's not necessary to call time to clean the plate.

 

Is the reason based on a pre-disposition to keep the ball live and avoid unnecessary stoppages, signals, and calls? Is it that with more experience, you have confidence to keep a lighter hand on the reins? Or is there something else going on?

 

I know I can respond appropriately to a situation in which a coach attempts what PitchingFan suggested (in jest, I think), and I can do so in a manner that discourages similar shenanigans by anyone who remains in the game after such a breach of decorum.  But throwing my hands in the air for a fraction of a second before cleaning the plate seems like a cheap insurance policy. Otherwise, any action that occurs while I'm brushing is likely to lead to an argument.

 

What am I missing?

 

Seriously, I'm not trying to argue. Trying to learn.

 

The part I've highlighted in bold is pretty much it. Leaving the ball live as much as possible allows both teams to play their game as much as possible. At lower levels, you can't necessarily do this--I've never seen anyone over the age of 18 try to steal home with the pitcher holding the ball during relaxed action. 

In the video below, this guy (UmpireTeacher) is instructing people not to call time to clean the plate. But, he goes on to say that nobody should be making a play when his back is to the game. So, isn't that basically the same thing as calling time without actually using the words? If you can't make a play, then time is out, right?

 

I don't know who this guy is, if he is any good or if he even knows what he's talking about. I was just looking for some more information on the subject because I find the nuances fascinating. BTW - the umpire in our HS summer game called timeout to clean the plate last night.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18BhxCre2ws

 

The pitching was in jest but I've never seen an umpire bend down and clean plate with a brush without at least putting hand up first.  It takes a second to do this and then point to pitcher which puts it in play.  Everyone assumes there is time when the umpire is cleaning the plate.

I have seen a player steal home in college this year when the pitcher and catcher were talking and the umpire was not looking.  The umpire had to admit he did not call timeout but that it was assumed which is not true.  He made the runner go back which was wrong and fits directly into your situation. 

Originally Posted by kandkfunk:

In the video below, this guy (UmpireTeacher) is instructing people not to call time to clean the plate. But, he goes on to say that nobody should be making a play when his back is to the game. So, isn't that basically the same thing as calling time without actually using the words? If you can't make a play, then time is out, right?

 

I don't know who this guy is, if he is any good or if he even knows what he's talking about. I was just looking for some more information on the subject because I find the nuances fascinating. BTW - the umpire in our HS summer game called timeout to clean the plate last night.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18BhxCre2ws

 

I know him in a different capacity (he was a lounge singer.) His reputation in the umpiring community...well...that's all I'll say about that. If you want to get a feel, go over to umpire.org and search UmpireTeacher.

Originally Posted by PitchingFan:

The pitching was in jest but I've never seen an umpire bend down and clean plate with a brush without at least putting hand up first.  It takes a second to do this and then point to pitcher which puts it in play.  Everyone assumes there is time when the umpire is cleaning the plate.

I have seen a player steal home in college this year when the pitcher and catcher were talking and the umpire was not looking.  The umpire had to admit he did not call timeout but that it was assumed which is not true.  He made the runner go back which was wrong and fits directly into your situation. 

That's just horrible game management. If F2 goes out to the mound during relaxed action, I'm calling time whether I'm cleaning the plate or not. The issue isn't that he didn't call time to clean the plate, the issue is that he wasn't paying attention to the game situation and didn't manage it.

When I work a one-man HS game I tell the coaches at the plate meeting that the ball is dead when I'm hustling back to the dish from wherever I need to be to make a call on the field.  Including cleaning the plate.  Calling time and putting the ball back in play continuously during the game is unnecessary and interferes with the flow of the game.  However, I only clean the plate when absolutely necessary or at times when the ball becomes dead and it is needed.

 

When working with an experienced  partner (that I know and trust) I very seldom ever call time to clean the plate.  I just make eye contact with my partner first.  I've never had a problem.  You just have to be aware and be quick.  There are plenty of opportunities to clean the plate when the ball becomes dead without adding stoppages.

Originally Posted by JWC1022:

When I work a one-man HS game I tell the coaches at the plate meeting that the ball is dead when I'm hustling back to the dish from wherever I need to be to make a call on the field.  Including cleaning the plate.  Calling time and putting the ball back in play continuously during the game is unnecessary and interferes with the flow of the game.  However, I only clean the plate when absolutely necessary or at times when the ball becomes dead and it is needed.

I would advise you to call time at any point that you are not able to monitor what you need. It eliminates ambiguity--all it takes for one team but not the other to think you are in an implied time-out and bam! You're in hell!

 

(Points for reference.)

For me it's about the mechanics I was taught. I haven't been evaluated in the last few years, but "Plate Cleaning" is on the eval form and my recollection is the association doesn't want you to call time.

 

I also agree that "they" tell you to always keep your "chest to ball" when the ball is live; however, it seems this one case it's OK not to because "they" said so. Once you've done it one way for enough time, it's hard to change.

 

For me It has nothing to do with the time it takes to put my hands up prior to cleaning or needing (remembering) to put the ball back in play after. It's just a mechanic. Really unless you're cleaning a large pile of dirt off the plate after a play at the plate, then it should take no more than a few seconds to quickly swiff the plate.  If it's extra dirty a shoe works well before you bend down. It's not rocket science and like I said before, I'm not eating off it nor am I type "A" enough to have no spec of dirt left.  Perhaps if I had OCD I'd need to swiff 3 times like Sheldon knocks 3 times on Penny's door ;-)  Many plates in our area are to say the least not in the best of shape and no amount of swiffing will clean them.

 

On a totally unrelated issue, but yet noted in a recent response... If the catcher went to the mound without requesting time, I wouldn't call time for him. I might ask him while he's on his way if he's forgetting anything (so only he and I can hear it).  But why should I "assist" the defense in making a "time" call that could benefit the offense?  Catchers know to call time... They know if they don't hear time, then they need to ask again... If they don't, well it's not my job to train them.  Last time they do it I bet too!  Not that you want to throw the guy protecting you under the base, but if a defensive coach asks I'd have to say because he didn't call time...

 

 

Originally Posted by JohnF:

 

On a totally unrelated issue, but yet noted in a recent response... If the catcher went to the mound without requesting time, I wouldn't call time for him. I might ask him while he's on his way if he's forgetting anything (so only he and I can hear it).  But why should I "assist" the defense in making a "time" call that could benefit the offense?  Catchers know to call time... They know if they don't hear time, then they need to ask again... If they don't, well it's not my job to train them.  Last time they do it I bet too!  Not that you want to throw the guy protecting you under the base, but if a defensive coach asks I'd have to say because he didn't call time...

 

At the levels I do, you just do it. You'll look like a redass looking for trouble if you don't. It's part of the accepted social graces. If the manager wants a trip or the catcher wants to talk to his pitcher, you call time as soon as you recognize the situation, unless there is still unrelaxed action. Often they'll ask, but you still give it to them if they don't. I would say that it may be a good idea to do this at HS and below. It'll avoid you having to clean up messes.

Call "Time" and clean off the plate.  You don't need the aggravation of some "Rules Lawyer Coach" sending his runner sliding through you and knocking you on your butt.  Preventive Umpiring is YOUR FRIEND not your enemy.  Remember, you are there to bring order and balance.  Not chaos and confusion.

 

So use some COMMON SENSE and call "Time".  Then clean off the plate.

Add Reply

Post
.
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×