Base on Ballse/Runner Question

Under Fed rules when a batter receives a base on balls he is not entitled to any protection if he overruns first base. If he does so and is tagged with the ball while off the bag he's out.

The exception to this is the awarding of an intentional base on balls in which case the ball is dead and the batter/runner can't be put out before the ball is live again.

Did the player make a move to 2nd? If so, I'd say yes, he could be thrown out. But I don't know that for sure. If there's a runner on 3rd, the hitter who got walked, could make a play for 2nd in an effort to score the run. I think the only exception might be if it's a HBP or IBB and it's a dead ball situation.

No attempt to advance to 2nd was made, but on a a walk you are rewarded 1st base only, when you hit a ball, you are allowed to overrun first just because if you had to slow down to stop on the base or slide to avoid over running the base, it would be very difficult to reach 1st base on a fielded ball.
That's why there is no provision for the over running of second or thrid base, the runner can lead off, steal etc.

I just wondered if you walk to first, and take a step pass the bag, can the pither or catcher throw over, once you've reached the bag safely and tag you out, even though you were making no effor to advance, I say yes. But just wanted to confirm.

you may not stop a runner who is already advancing and continuing to advance prior to the pitcher and catcher being in position. hence,a batter who recveives a walk stops at first and the pitcher is on the rubber,he may go no further. he is liable to be put out if he is off base because the award was to first base and no more.the thing to remember is that the ball is live and the protection afforded the batter/runner stops when he touches first base.he has the right to try for second if he does not stop when he reaches first.

CP, let me make sure we are on the same page. The batter walks, if he walks past first, even with out making a move to sencond base, he is liable to be put out just like any other runner who is caught off base on a live ball??

The not making a move to 2nd scenario does not come into play in this instance. Correct?

correct. he is awarded first base and that's it.

does this apply to high school too??

CPTUNA could you please provide a link or source for your information. I can't find anything that relates to this particular scenario. And I keep geeting people telling me about the "attempt to or make a move to advance to 2nd" scenario. If you have some sort of source I could quote, it would be appreciated. You made reference to the "fed rules" can you provide me a link?

cccsdad,

Fed rules are not printed online but you can order a rule and case books from NFHS.com.

The reference for the scenario you presented is:
Rule 8-2: Touching, Occupying and Returning to a Base.
Article 7: A batter-runner who reaches first base safely and then overruns or overslides may immediately return without liability of being put out provided he does not attempt or feint an advance to second. A PLAYER WHO IS AWARDED FIRST BASE ON A BASE ON BALLS DOES NOT HAVE THIS RIGHT. (CAPITALS used for emphasis)

my rule book and case book are on loan right now. during this year's mandatory umpire meetings, it was brought up. the instructor was quite emphatic that on a base on balls, the ball is still live and the award is first base, not 1 inch past first but to first base. i will make an effort to email the guy for a reference and post it if possible.

CCCSDAD - did you see this happen or just curious? If you saw it happen, WHY did he continue past first?

It was a 9 year old game, the coach told the palyer to hustle down to first, he did and ran right through the bag, the pitcher saw this, threw to first and the kid was tagged out.

the reference by pilsner is right on: rule 8 section 2 article 7. hope this helps.

Guys,
It depends on which rules you are playing under. As Pilsner has stated, in FED the runner can't overrun without being liable to be put out. In OBR, the runner may overrun just as if he had hit a fair ball. This is clarified in both the PBUC manual and in the Major League Baseball Umpire Manual. NCAA rules allow the overrun without liability.

3Fingered is absolutely correct. OBR and NCAA do permit the overrun without liability on a base on balls. Fed does not.

Since this is the High School baseball website, I tend to answer relative to Fed rather than OBR or NCAA unless someone specifically states what rules are being used.

My apologies if this caused any confusion.

pilsner and cpttuna, can you provide the MLB and NCAA ruling paragraph and section number?, so I can look up this ruling?

7.08 (c) A batter runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base.

Is that made with the assumption that the batter/runner has hit the ball? I can't find any rule which is specific to this paticular situation.

Also I emailed our state USSSA director Ted Cox, who is also a fomer major league player, this was his response.


"we play by major league baseball rules, they do not allow going past 1st base without being put out. you must go directly to the bag and stop. ted"
"

Here's a quote from the MLBUM, which is the defining authority for major league baseball:
(From Section 5.13): "NOTE: The batter-runner is not prohibited from overrunning first base on a base on balls (i.e., the batter-runner may overrun first base on a base on balls and is not in jeopardy of being put out provided he returns immediately to first base). (See Official Baseball Rules 7.08(c)(EXCEPTION), 7.08(j), and 7.10(c).)"
I believe this clarification was introduced in 2003.
Note that OBR rule 6.08(a) provides that 4 balls makes a batter a runner.
NCAA rule 8-5 Exception has similar wording to 7.08(c) exception.

Besides the official rules, there are three other unofficial sources for rules interpretations.
1. Jim Evans Annotated (by one of the two pro umpiring school proprietors--but not generally available to the public
2. Jaksa/Roder
3. Baseball Rule Differences by Carl Childress

Evans goes against the MLBUM (or at least did as of a few years ago), while the BRD and J/R, which are revise annually, support it.

The odd thing is the actuall rule reads.

A batter runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base; APPROVED RULING.
In the rule book it makes no reference to a base on balls.
In the MLBUM, is that the actuall rule, or is that more of a guidelines, in regards to how this should be called?

that's not odd at all

after "ball 4" he IS a batter-runner headed to 1B

Well if you want to get technical about it, a batter/runner is also anyone that has hit the ball and by rule is subject to be put out before reaching 1st base. Correct?

I still can not find in any rule book where it specifically states that after being awarded 1st base on a walk, the runner can not be put out if he advances past 1st base.

It does say, batter/runner but I still maintain that is in the context of someone who has hit the ball and is allowed as the batter/runner to over run first as long as he returns to the bag.

I feel for ya ... hate it when things get technical ... but, you got casebook approved rulings from some pretty heads-up umpires...

and, they say a little knowledge is dangerous - so read the whole thing

quote:

6.08 The batter becomes a runner when .....

four "balls" have been called
hit by pitch
CI
6.09 fair hits, etc

or ... you could just sit back & enjoy, as you could meltdown sorting out a delayed dead ball obstruction call

quote:

I still can not find in any rule book where it specifically states that after being awarded 1st base on a walk, the runner can not be put out if he advances past 1st base.

...and you won't.

There are Rules (in the book) and there are Approved Rulings and Interpretations. Some App. Rulings/Interps. are in the book and many (and I mean very many) are not.

That is why there are manuals (official & unofficial), case books and other publications out there that try to deal with all of the "what ifs". If all of the possible "what ifs" were to be included in the different Rule Books they'd be hundreds of pages long, weigh about 20 lbs. and be cost prohibitive to edit and reproduce on an annual basis.

There are many rules in the "Books" that are not interpreted or applied exclusively in the manner in which they are written.

To paraphrse:

Just because the Book says it's so, doesn't mean it's ALWAYS so...and just because the Book doesn't say it's so, doesn't mean it ALWAYS isn't so.

I know that wasn't very eloquent but some people have a way with words and some people, like me, have not way.

Pilsner,thanks.

My problem with this whole "batter/runner" thing is this, first of all we know they are not one in the same, if you strike out, you were without a doubt a batter, but never a runner.



I think the context of the batter/runner is in the case where a batter has hit a ball, and therefor, due to the dynamics of the game, he, the batter who has hit the ball, is the only runner who is allowed to over run his base without out the risk of being put out so long as he doens't attempt or feint a move to advance to 2nd base.

Oh well, you say Tomato, I say Tomaaato.

This may either help or cause more confusion but...

Batter-runner does not mean a batter and/or a runner.
Batter-runner is a stand alone term that identifies an offensive player who has just finished his time at bat until he has been put out or until playing action ends.

I understand the term, I just think in the context of this conversation and how the rule reads, it does so with the assumption that the batter/runner has hit the ball and therefore is allowed to run through first base without risk of being put out, provided he doesn't yadda yadda yadda. Runner on 1st, batter walks, is the runner on 1st awarded 2nd base? Yes. Is he allowed, as long as he doesn't feint or attempt a move to 3rd, to stroll passed 2nd base with out the risk of being put out? No.

So why is a guy who has been awarded 1st on a walk allowed to do so? Is it just because a guy that hits the ball can overrun 1st therefor every batter/runner should be allowed to?

If I"m umping and a guy over runs 1st on a walk and it's a live ball, I'm ringing him up if he gets tagged prior to returning to the bag, but that's just me.

quote:

Originally posted by cccsdad:

In the MLBUM, is that the actuall rule, or is that more of a guidelines, in regards to how this should be called?

You ask a difficult question because technically the MLBUM is NOT a rule book, but because of the way the MLBPA's contarct is written the revision of the rules is restricted, so when MLB wants to change how something is officiated, they rarely alter the rulebook. They are much more likely to alter the MLBUM and through that method they are able to change a rule without altering the actual rulebook text.

So the short andswer is it is not the rule per se, but it definately is the de facto rule.

As far as MLB umpires are concerned the MLBUM is the "rulebook" that they enforce.

quote:

Originally posted by cccsdad:
So why is a guy who has been awarded 1st on a walk allowed to do so[over-run first]?

The place where this gets sticky is if the count is full and the batter tries to check his swing on a pitch in the dirt, but he thinks he went far enough that the umpire may call it a swing, so he sprints toward first. Now the ball skips away from the catcher and the umpire dances out of the catcher's way. Once the PU has cleared the catcher he points at the BU and asks "Did he go?" If the runner is fast he may be to first base (or close) by the time the question is answered. For the sake of discussion lets say the answer is "No, he didn't go." This answer is given a split second before the batter-runner touches and over-runs first base which happens a split second before the throw from the catcher arrives. Are you really going to penalize this batter for running out a play when he was walked, but thought (legitimately) that he was in jeopardy of being put out?

I guess I don't understand your gripe here. Do you wish the rule was different? Or do you think you've been given an improper interpretation?