what counts, situations, etc. do you like?
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I am analyzing my base stealing approach as well. In the past I have ran too often on the second pitch if the first pitch was as fastball for a strike, because the second pitch (on the high school level) is often a breaking ball, but this year I am going to chart better. I want to know the tendencies of the pitcher as far as how he has pitched to every batter. Of course the arm strength and accuracy of the opposing catcher and the accuracy of the opposing pitcher come into play. There are obvious counts that increase the chances for a successful steal. I like aggressiveness, but there is a fine line between aggressiveness and stupid. You never want to take the bat out of the hands of one of your better hitters and you do not want to run into outs (although you will at times) and take yourself out of a big inning.
Simple answer: 0-2 or 0-2 with 2 outs with a guy up I wouldn't mind leading off the next inning.
Long answer: about 100 things go into it including; speed of my runner (and if he's that fast the count doesn't matter), their catcher, their pitcher's move to home, move to first, his effectiveness, who I have hitting, where we are in the order, the wind (we play on days that are so windy a hit ball is a tough out and you hate to give away one out of the precious 21)... the field; muddy? ...
basically any time you steal you are spinning the roulette wheel. You are taking your chances against leaving him on first and needing two hits or an extra base hit (or pitcher wildness) to get him home versus him being on 2nd and now you only need one knock to score him.
there's some mental rambling
Long answer: about 100 things go into it including; speed of my runner (and if he's that fast the count doesn't matter), their catcher, their pitcher's move to home, move to first, his effectiveness, who I have hitting, where we are in the order, the wind (we play on days that are so windy a hit ball is a tough out and you hate to give away one out of the precious 21)... the field; muddy? ...
basically any time you steal you are spinning the roulette wheel. You are taking your chances against leaving him on first and needing two hits or an extra base hit (or pitcher wildness) to get him home versus him being on 2nd and now you only need one knock to score him.
there's some mental rambling
I like to steal as soon as I get a time on the pitcher. 
If the catcher is 2.2+, I don't even care what kind of time the pitcher is.
If the catcher is 2.2+, I don't even care what kind of time the pitcher is.
To add to Trojan-Skipper's long answer:
Which pitch to steal on is also complicated by whether your R1 is read-stealing or first-move-stealing (guess-stealing).
(First-move stealing is not only for use against LHPs, since it can also make sense vs. RHPs who are quick to the plate with a strong-armed catcher.)
Something else: Vs. leg-lifting LHPs who either throw-over or throw-a-pitch based on reading R1's intentions while they leg-lift (these guys are fairly rare), I'm convinced they're less likely to throw over when they're concentrating on throwing a breaking pitch.
Which pitch to steal on is also complicated by whether your R1 is read-stealing or first-move-stealing (guess-stealing).
(First-move stealing is not only for use against LHPs, since it can also make sense vs. RHPs who are quick to the plate with a strong-armed catcher.)
Something else: Vs. leg-lifting LHPs who either throw-over or throw-a-pitch based on reading R1's intentions while they leg-lift (these guys are fairly rare), I'm convinced they're less likely to throw over when they're concentrating on throwing a breaking pitch.
quote:Originally posted by redbird5:
I like to steal as soon as I get a time on the pitcher.
If the catcher is 2.2+, I don't even care what kind of time the pitcher is.
If RH pitcher is 1.3 and catcher is an accurate 2.25 (combined 3.55), where does that fall on your risk/reward for HS baseball--how do you like your chances with your top guys? Second tier guys?
OK, thanks guys - good situational/conditional info so far but not much on counts (except the 0-2 scenario). How about more feedback specific to count?? I know first pitch can be good but often predictable. I know off speed counts are good but those are also the same counts (pitcher ahead) that will put the hitter further in the hole if he takes or fakes. Keep it coming! (And please keep it specific to stealing as opposed to hit & run or run & hit).
Thanks.
Thanks.
quote:Originally posted by redbird5:
I like to steal as soon as I get a time on the pitcher.
If the catcher is 2.2+, I don't even care what kind of time the pitcher is.
Considering that the MLB average for Catchers is 2.0, my bust guess would be that 90%+ of HS Catchers are 2.2 or over (if timed correctly).
My best advice would be to time your guys full speed from lead to 2nd (w slide) and do the math (Pitcher time + pop time) that will be a useful guide.
quote:Originally posted by Nicholas25:
I am analyzing my base stealing approach as well. In the past I have ran too often on the second pitch if the first pitch was as fastball for a strike, because the second pitch (on the high school level) is often a breaking ball, but this year I am going to chart better. I want to know the tendencies of the pitcher as far as how he has pitched to every batter. Of course the arm strength and accuracy of the opposing catcher and the accuracy of the opposing pitcher come into play. There are obvious counts that increase the chances for a successful steal. I like aggressiveness, but there is a fine line between aggressiveness and stupid. You never want to take the bat out of the hands of one of your better hitters and you do not want to run into outs (although you will at times) and take yourself out of a big inning.
Make sure to do the opposite, you'll learn quickly that most opposing coaches run/hit and run in the same counts and you can pitch out and steal some outs.
quote:Originally posted by freddy77:
If RH pitcher is 1.3 and catcher is an accurate 2.25 (combined 3.55), where does that fall on your risk/reward for HS baseball--how do you like your chances with your top guys? Second tier guys?
If a P is 1.3, we are running all day. Most likely, a HS catcher throwing 2.2+ is rarely on the bag so I like my chances.
FWIW, I don't coach HS. I coach a showcase team. Using my son's HS team, I would run 7 of the 9 guys in this scenario.
quote:Originally posted by bsballfan:
Considering that the MLB average for Catchers is 2.0, my bust guess would be that 90%+ of HS Catchers are 2.2 or over (if timed correctly).
My best advice would be to time your guys full speed from lead to 2nd (w slide) and do the math (Pitcher time + pop time) that will be a useful guide.
Exactly, I would be stealing quite a bit. I agree on the math.
quote:Originally posted by cabbagedad:
OK, thanks guys - good situational/conditional info so far but not much on counts (except the 0-2 scenario). How about more feedback specific to count?? I know first pitch can be good but often predictable. I know off speed counts are good but those are also the same counts (pitcher ahead) that will put the hitter further in the hole if he takes or fakes. Keep it coming! (And please keep it specific to stealing as opposed to hit & run or run & hit).
Thanks.
Come on, I know all you good coaches are out there...
Cabbagedad,
What counts, situations, etc., do YOU like?
What counts, situations, etc., do YOU like?
Freddy,
Situations - I agree and understand all variables mentioned earlier in this thread. It's easy when the times tilt the scales clearly one way or the other. First move is the only way to succeed at straight steal against LHP.
Counts - I like first pitch but try not to be too predictable. I start to doubt myself when I mentally debate waiting for off-speed count with the fact that these counts already have the batter in the hole. That's why I'm asking for help from the good guys!
Unfortunately the majority of our varsity team only plays baseball during the HS season and we only see our league rivals twice a season (usually different SP each time) so we don't pick up on tendancies as well as we should.
So, I'm looking for additional coach feedback regarding count.
Thanks.
Situations - I agree and understand all variables mentioned earlier in this thread. It's easy when the times tilt the scales clearly one way or the other. First move is the only way to succeed at straight steal against LHP.
Counts - I like first pitch but try not to be too predictable. I start to doubt myself when I mentally debate waiting for off-speed count with the fact that these counts already have the batter in the hole. That's why I'm asking for help from the good guys!
Unfortunately the majority of our varsity team only plays baseball during the HS season and we only see our league rivals twice a season (usually different SP each time) so we don't pick up on tendancies as well as we should.
So, I'm looking for additional coach feedback regarding count.
Thanks.
It depends on the situation. Normally, I take the early and often approach to put pressure on the opposing defense and set the tone.
Also, with 2 outs and a man on first with with wheels I will have him going on a two strike pitch. Other times, I will give green lights to selected runners.
Bottom line: Be agressive and greedy on the base path always wanting to get to the next base.
Lefty...
Also, with 2 outs and a man on first with with wheels I will have him going on a two strike pitch. Other times, I will give green lights to selected runners.
Bottom line: Be agressive and greedy on the base path always wanting to get to the next base.
Lefty...
I'll go through streaks where I'll have my kids moving every time there is a full count and a force situation, regardless of outs, unless I wipe it off.
to piggy-back off of the org. question.....For the first time in 16 yrs, I will have team speed that is waaay below avg. So, how does (or does it) change your approach?
I guess you'll turn into Earl Weaver and sit back and wait for some big.... Um guy to hit a 3 run home run.
It seems to me slow guys hUrt you more in the field than on the bases, but I do feel your pain d8.
It seems to me slow guys hUrt you more in the field than on the bases, but I do feel your pain d8.
..and if you don't have may of those big.. HR/extra base hit guys, I would think that more hit and runs will be in order.
I hope you have a lineup that can string hits together, so the slow guys can come around to score. Delayed steals can also be executed successfully with guys that do not have great wheels.
The count usually depends on the pitcher, I simply try to pick up on a pitchers routine and try to guess when he's throwing a curveball. The only count I consistently steal on is 2-2 because most pitchers will go with their offspeed pitch(or their best pitch). Few high school pitchers are willing to throw an offspeed pitch on 3-2, so most will throw that offspeed on the 2-2 count.
Guys,
Here is a vital move that very few teach, the "directional drop step".Every top "basestealer" does it to a lesser or greater extent. It seems like you are losing ground but in reality you are gaining ground & positive direction with your top half & it puts your arms & legs in sync immediately.Most have not been taught this move. They do it instinctively because that is the way their bodies organize each one to accomplish the goal of getting to second as fast as is humanly possible.
JW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mexY0A_009c
Here is a vital move that very few teach, the "directional drop step".Every top "basestealer" does it to a lesser or greater extent. It seems like you are losing ground but in reality you are gaining ground & positive direction with your top half & it puts your arms & legs in sync immediately.Most have not been taught this move. They do it instinctively because that is the way their bodies organize each one to accomplish the goal of getting to second as fast as is humanly possible.
JW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mexY0A_009c
Jerry,
Any tips for teaching it?
Any tips for teaching it?
NDD,
I'd show them the video & see how they organize their body as they model what they see. At the same time I would video them so they can see what they are doing & compare it to the best base stealers.It's basically copy what you see. Follow your dance partner.From there they can develop their own cues to accomplish the "directional drop step." It's one of those "guided discovery" deals.The best lessons are self taught. IMO the least amount of verbage the better.Too often we tend to over coach & under teach this game.
JW
I'd show them the video & see how they organize their body as they model what they see. At the same time I would video them so they can see what they are doing & compare it to the best base stealers.It's basically copy what you see. Follow your dance partner.From there they can develop their own cues to accomplish the "directional drop step." It's one of those "guided discovery" deals.The best lessons are self taught. IMO the least amount of verbage the better.Too often we tend to over coach & under teach this game.
JW
Jerry, I remember attending a clinic where Coach Cohen from Mississippi State was speaking. He addressed this very thought of the drop step. You'd be surprised how many wanted to argue afterwards even with the video proof he showed. I know for me, it was a no brainer to change my philosophy to incorporate this.
Many thanks
Thanks everyone. Good info.
Most of my best basestealing teams weren't my best hitting teams. If you're a good hitting team in high school, your hitters are usually going to jump on the first couple of pitches. This won't give you (3rd base coach) or your runner much chance. In my region/state, HS pitchers and catchers have drastically improved in the last 10 yrs. Most pitchers now use a slidestep and most catchers are under a 2.2. I don't like stealing on the first pitch unless my runner is superfast (6.8 or under) because a think the baserunner hasn't got to see the pitcher's move home and they're more than likely going to get a bad jump on the first pitch. I've had several 6.9 and under players and they weren't my best basestealers. My best basestealers were 7.1-7.2 guys that got good jumps and good reads. My best at stealing 3rd was a guy that ran a 7.6(about 7 times in 1 season) because other teams weren't expecting him. In HS, the other team is going to recognize or already know who your fast guys are. They're going to pick and pitch out more when those guys are on. Saying all of this, my teams have stolen 60-90 bases a year and are successful at a 85%.
quote:Originally posted by On Base 14:
Most pitchers now use a slidestep and most catchers are under a 2.2... my teams have stolen 60-90 bases a year and are successful at a 85%.
On Base,
Good info in your post.
One question: Considering the slidesteppers and sub-2.2 catchers, is it fair to say that your team's stolen base numbers partly reflect backside runners (first and third) stealing second unopposed?
Not really. I don't stop waving my arm at 3rd, therefore we're not in that position much. Just joking. I don't steal on the backside in 1st and 3rd because I think that is what everyone expects you to do. I like to H and R with R3 reading where its hit, safety squeeze, or squeeze. I've recently put the stink play in (situation with LHP-R3 breaks first and gets an extra step on the double steal and R1 gets in a rundown or pick to score the run). However I haven't had the balls to pull it off. The games have been too big and too close to use it.
My team this year will have to pull off trick plays to score. Anybody else got any trick bunts or steals up their sleeve?
Thanks for your posts Jerry.
My team this year will have to pull off trick plays to score. Anybody else got any trick bunts or steals up their sleeve?
Thanks for your posts Jerry.
quote:Originally posted by redbird5:
If a P is 1.3, we are running all day. Most likely, a HS catcher throwing 2.2+ is rarely on the bag so I like my chances.
FWIW, I don't coach HS. I coach a showcase team. Using my son's HS team, I would run 7 of the 9 guys in this scenario.
I know you guys have produced some great ballplayers from the beach. 7 of 9 players on one team? You guys have speed to burn.
Instead of running wind sprints everyday, run 77ft sprints in pairs. Time them and make sure you know them and they know them. Now all you have to do is the math.
