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Baseball and Academics: Excellence or Tolerance ?

S SnowBall10+ posts
It seems to me that there are possibly four types of athletic/academic "arrangements" in college (with variations in between)...

(a) Colleges where baseball excellence is encouraged, but where academics are marginally accomodated... and in extreme cases seen as a necessary evil.
(b) Colleges where academic excellence is encouraged, but where baseball is marginally accomodated... and in extreme cases seen as a necessary evil.
(c) Colleges where both baseball and academics are highly valued and excellence is encouraged, but the athletic departments and the academic departments battle each other for the student-athlete's time and attention.
(d) Colleges where both baseball and academics are highly valued and excellence is encouraged, AND there is proactive cooperation between athletic and academic areas to insure the student-athletes full potential is addressed.

My son's High School experience can be categorized as (c). For example, he had the "privilege" of being benched by his HS coach for missing a practice to represent his school at Regional Science Fair (which he was required to enter). For an opposite example, he had the "privilege" of having a teacher track him down on the baseball field, while taking pre-game infield practice for an important District playoff game, to ask him about some classroom items that could have easily waited. My son's baseball work ethic is top notch and he has a 3.8 GPA, so it's not like he is a "delinquent" in either area. Because of these experiences, my son often feels that he must choose between two of his loves: baseball or academics. He's figuring that if High School is like this, college would likely be worse. I'm counseling him to consider that there's a wide variety of college baseball programs out there and we might be able to find a way for him to do both.

Anyway, do college programs exist where baseball and academics don't just peacefully co-exist, but truly seek to better the student-athlete in both areas? The pat answer seems to be that the Ivy League, Patriot League and Div III schools are the place for this, but is that an over generalization? In my digging around, here are some things that I found:

* One Ivy league school that I read about makes at least some practice optional so that players can focus on school-work. At other times, practices are held at different times in order to accomodate school schedules.
* One school we visited touted the goal of 100% of their students to engage in some type of foreign study by the year 200X. Upon further questioning, the admissions officer told us that athletes were not included in this goal.
* I met some students from a DIII school with a very high academic reputation. While good athletes, they had given up on sports at their college because of the commitment required. One example they gave was that during the off-season, baseball and softball players had to attend mandatory practices that were often held after midnight due to lack of indoor facility space.
* Another Ivy league coach told us that while they don't alter practice schedules, they have a good relationship with professors and often work with directly with them to help get players through workload problems.
* I read of a Div I baseball program that held required study halls for their players to insure that they kept up with their studies. They also had other programs in place to assist the players with school work as necessary.
* I noted one college viewbook (Patriot League) that highlighted two baseball players. They were double majors and had worked on interesting research projects or internships. One had even studied abroad.
* One Div I college that I heard about simply won't take players who want to pursue certain majors. They are not necessarily trying to be mean-spirited, but apparently the coaching staff recognizes that the demands of those particular majors and the demands of the baseball program simply won't work together.

I know that it's just going to take some digging to find the schools that really try to synergize baseball and academics. But, are there any good reviews out there that might address this head on? Any suggestions or tips to streamline this type of investigative process?
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F FormerObserver1,000+ posts
Snowball,

That's a great post and I hestiate to put my 2 cents in and mess it up.

Baseball v. academics is an endless debat.


But "THEY" don't make the choices.

Surely, an oversimplification, but, the academic side and baseball each offer their respective buffets.

Now, it's our task to choose how much it taken from each table.

But my look back at the past year, revealed a surprising amount of integration of academics and baseball with scheduling of classes, tests, etc. and baseball timing it's practices and travel schedule to minimize the effect on academics.

At a state university......


There's more to do than can ever be done.....

Far too much than can be taken in.........

It's the circle of life.

It's the wheel of fortune.


It's a leap of faith..........
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
My son goes to a college with the "D" philosophy. We would not have had him attend if it was any other way. Although the minimum GPA to participate is ridiculous, you are strongly urged to maintain a high GPA.
Study hall is mandatory first freshman sememster (this is a requirement at most Div 1 schools)and any semester after if you do not maintain a certain GPA (they work really hard not to have to sit there 5 nights a week for an hour and a half a night after the first sememster). Head Coach receives a report every 3-4 weeks from the atheletic advisor. You are not allowed to miss any class except when you are traveling. Their schedules are carefully planned around their baseball schedule so therefore you may not miss a practice unless a family emergency occurs. Monday's are usually full, as that is the day they are required to give you off (NCAA). The coach reminds them all of the time that they are their for their education first. Players are chosen based on baseball performance as well as performance in the classroom.
I must admit though, baseball at my son's school is big business. You are "encouraged" to stay away from the most difficult majors, engineering being one of them. This is explained to you on your visit. I have found that most of the engineering baseball students are not regular starters.
In HS, you sat on the bench anytime you missed practice or a game for any reason. The only exception was for college visits or anything college related, as provided in provisions by the board of education in our county.
With new requirements by the NCAA, schools have to make sure that certain percentages of the students graduate and maintain GPA's.
The key is finding a school that has the right balance for your son. My son's schedule and academic demands and baseball demands are very grueling, not for everyone.
You are obviously doing your homework, that is good. These expectations are ususally laid out during serious recruiting time and on official visits. If not discussed, for me that would send up a red flag.
Last edited by TPM
FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
Very good post! I might add the student/athlete could be the biggest factor in determining the level of academics in his baseball/academic blend. Secondly I think the head coach has a lot to say in how this is handled. My son attended a Southeastern Conference college where most would jump to the conclusion that athletics rule. Ask a few questions and you soon find out how differently academics were handled from one player to the next. If a player needed help (or time) for academics, it was provided. I always had the feeling that academics came first. I also know that there were professors, coaches, and advisors that would help you seek the least challenging academic route if that is what the player wanted. My son's team had everything from engineering majors playing baseball ...to.... baseball players taking basket weaving.
Fungo
Last edited by Fungo
HeyBatterHeyBatter1,000+ posts
this is an excellent topic and a tough one.

first thing I guess is to look at your own priorities and at the many factors that make up where you/your child choose to attend.

As to the schools, IMO you really can't generalize and need to look at each school individually. With that said though, we encountered some of what might be deemed accepted generalizations.

My son was discouraged, if not flat out told he could not major in architecture at four different D-1 schools (each having fairly strong baseball programs) and there was more than a hint at these and other schools that certain other majors would not "work well" with the schedule of an athlete.

One very prominent D-1, which I routinely see mentioned on this site as the "dream school" of many, had some fairly significant contact with my son and at no time discussed academics. It was as if they did not want to know about it, except to tell him that they don't redshirt players, he must be prepared to be out in 4 years and all other discussion was about the program winnining and that their (coach's) jobs depend on winning and you best stay eligible 'cause we need you to play, 'cause we are here to win. Then they mentioned the need to win a few more times laugh

At the bottom line our personal experience was that in many cases you would be an athlete-student, not student-athlete.

As posted above, looking at the majors of current players and most importantly talking to the coach is necessary. Might also look at the team's travel schedule, do they have mandatory study hall, etc. Also, what is their graduation rate. Are atheletes segrated in their own dorms (not always a good thing) or are they treated more as part of the general student population. IMO all signs of how athletes are treated and the expectations for them.

My son decided upon a school where the coach made clear that baseball is taken very seriously, but that academics must come 1st. Of note was that coach had attended a school very similar in reputation, style etc. as the school where he was now coaching and so this was his own personal background (of academics first).

My son did have to make some arrangements in his class schedule (given games days, etc.), but whenever a conflict arose, at the coach's insistance, class came first. It was also interesting that many professors attended the baseball games (of which my son took note and has signed up with some of them for class next year Wink)

Bottom line is that there is some "homework" to be done in this area and well worth doing so as to find the right fit.
123KMOM123KMOM500+ posts
PAbaseballmom

As was already mentioned, check out graduation rates (I think Boyd's world does one for baseball) and check the majors on the rosters.

Also, I would encourage HS players to take those AP (college courses) offered at their HS and some universities (check on this) will allow students to "test out" of some requirements...anything that will help lessen their load in college. Our son started with 25 units he accomplised in HS and plans to graduate early. Wink
S SnowBall10+ posts
Thanks to everyone for some interesting and valuable replies!! (This is such a great website) On a related note, I just discovered (or re-discovered) the NCR APR rating. I searched HSBaseballWeb, but only found 1 thread discussing it... and the discussion revolved more around the impact of the APR on scholarships, etc. versus it's value as an indicator of academic focus/commitment.

For what it's worth, here's the NCAA definition:

"The APR is a real-time assessment of a team's academic performance, which awards two points each term to scholarship student-athletes who meet academic-eligibility standards and who remain with the institution. A team's APR is the total points earned by the team at a given time divided by the total points possible."

I looked up a couple different schools with their search tool and found the results rather interesting. For those so inclined to check it out, here's the link from the NCAA site: http://www2.ncaa.org/academics_and_athletes/education_a...rch/academic_reform/

As TRHit pointed out, there's a lot more to the story than one statistic, but still I am curious if anyone has a feel for how applicable the APR might be.
F FormerObserver1,000+ posts
...checked out my son's school.

He's gonna have to transfer.

Too academically oriented.

Can't be enough baseball going on with that kind of pass rate.

Was wondering why we did so poorly in the league standings this year. Now I know.

Just too many nerds.

Wow, I should have checked this out a long time ago.

But I also got to wondering about who was doing the stats. The schools or the NCAA.

I'm thinking it has to be one of the two and then I wondered if that was like mom and dad keeping junior heathrower's stats.

And, I'm wondering that if they have a 75% rate and he cuts all classes, does that mean he will still pass three of four?

And then I got to thinking how my not knowing about the APR performance and I realizd what needs to be done.

"And here's #7 Ralphie Academentia at the plate, currently hitting .165, no HR's and 2 runs batted in with a real time academic GPA of 3.98 and majoring in architecure."

Or, here's #16 Little Johnny Dementia, son of Big JOhnny Dementia, hitting .321 2 HR's and 18 runs batted in with a real time academic GPA of 1.7 undeclared major with a minor in baseball and female anatomy.

Govermental Full Disclosure and Disclaimer

Some portions of this post are not true.

And the tattle tale editor ain't working. It's look like I typed this perfectly the first time.
Last edited by FormerObserver
CollegeParentNoMoreCollegeParentNoMore1,000+ posts
Graduation rates can be found at http://www.ncaa.org/grad_rates/2004/d1/index.html.

TR is correct in that graduation stats can be misleading due to the manner in which the info is compiled. i.e. you'd maybe wrong to conclude that a school with a 75% grad rate "better" then one with a 70% rate. However if you are comparing two schools one of which has a 75% rate and the other a 25% rate I think you should be concerned about the school with the 25% rate!
O OldVaman500+ posts
As far as I'm concerned, this is the biggest transition a PARENT has to make when it comes to college.

Once your son signs for a scholarship, his job is baseball. He is supposed to get an education. He is supposed to go to class, study, learn and graduate. Every kid who walks in to door at any college is supposed to do that.

But the scholarship athlete, more than anything else, is supposed to win on the field.

The two are not exclusive of each other. TR is right ... grad rates are not everything they're cracked up to be. Some kids turn pro. Some kids simply don't make it. Look to see how the program supports its athletes. See how many players "dumb down" in major to stay on the team.

You don't like what you see? Go somewhere else.

I will be upset if my son does not graduate. But that's on him. I don't worry about his grades anymore, as long as he is passing. I worry far more about his baseball.

If he screws up in the classroom, he did no less than any other kid who didn't make it. He'll have to figure out where to go from there.

If he screws up on the baseball field, he becomes any other college student.
A AParent1,000+ posts
Don't forget where the player himself fits into this mold. One student will swear it isn't possible to keep up your grades and be a starting player - and another starter on the same team will be on the deans list (and no he isn't always taking easier classes).

How much time a student has to study is not strictly situational. Sure, there are some schools and some coaches who can make it seem impossible - but there is always one kid on that team determined enough to make it work. .

It is a great idea to check out the schools your son is interested in. But don't forget -it is just as important to know your sons study habits (and remember to take off those rose colored glasses here too).

A truly good fit matches the school, the situation, and the student himself.
Last edited by AParent
S SnowBall10+ posts
More great insights! Thanks.

This is definitely one of the more difficult parenting challeges we've had. We go back and forth from too much hands-off to too much hands-on. Part of the process, I suppose... particularly with the firstborn.

Excellent point on the player's study habits. That hit home. My son started a new school his Junior year (his choice) away from home at a college prep place. He was up past midnight all the time trying to stay on top of AP and honors courses. He ended up well by the end of the year, but was really worn. I could tell he was fatigued when he was playing ball. Of course, being a catcher he can't coast either. Plus, losing the backup catcher midway through the season just made things even harder. Anyway, at one point I started digging into how/what he was studying and found that as good as his time management had developed, he still burned a lot of cycles on the wrong things. The workload was indeed heavy, but his study habits definitely needed some tweaking. Add to that his perfectionist streak and bingo. (I have no idea where he would have gotten that from <grin>Wink.

Anyway, thanks again. Good posts.
L LouisianaTexan10+ posts
Some of yalls approach to this is way off. A student who goes to college is there to get an education, then to play ball. This is especially true at a Division I. If you screw up on the baseball field, you still have a degree. If you screw up in the classroom, then you are screwed. Most college coaches are concerned about their players education because we realize that 99% of them will not have careers in pro baseball. It doesn't matter what college you go to, go in with the mentality that you are going to excel in the classroom and on the baseball field. Put the same amount of effort in to both, that shows the kind of character you have as well.
Last edited by LouisianaTexan
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
My suggestion, when looking at baseball graduation rates also study the overall graduation rates at the school (atheletic).
Many programs have low baseball graduation rates due the nature of the sport, many leave after third year. We based the graduation rate on other programs such as football, basketball and graduation rates in general. What you do need to ask, and this is very important, is how they help the player who leaves after 3 years to recive their degree. You will find that at most of the bigger schools, the players will return during their off season to continue towards their degrees. If no one mentioned that during recruiting, my son was not interested (and we were not either).
A very good question to ask the coach at some time during the recruiting process is what is the overall GPA of the current roster. Kind of gives you an idea of how much emphasis he places on teh importance of academics.
If anyone is interested in the new NCAA guidelines for graduation rates and how it will affect that schools program, this should be one of your questions during recruiting.

When deciding upon a school, all things have to be considered. If your son wants to be an architect or engineering major, then maybe the demands of that particular school's baseball program would interfere with that. You MUST do your homework.
FO,
I enjoyed your post,you are hysterical!

I think louisianTexan has the right idea.
Last edited by TPM
A AParent1,000+ posts
No one hesitates to set up a meeting with a coach to see if the school is the right fit for them.

How many have also set up a meeting with an academic advisor, and a professor or two.

How better to find out how well the professors and the coaching staff work together.

College IS about more than baseball - go beyond your meeting with the baseball staff. Sure they will introduce you around if you want, but why not pick the professors yourself - a coach will never introduce you to the ones who DON"T work with him.

Taking the time and effort to get the full picture now will save lots of frustration tomorrow.
FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
quote:
A student who goes to college is there to get an education, then to play ball. This is especially true at a Division I.


Louisiana Texan, I see it differently.

Division one coaches don’t frown on a player leaving to play professionally. During my son’s recruitment out of high school all coaches said their program would help him get drafted after his third year of college. While this may impact their graduation rates in a negative manner, this is a boost for their recruiting the better players. For instance, of the seven players drafted from my son's D-1 team this spring (3 seniors and 4 juniors) all signed professional contracts and to my knowledge none have a degree. No parent, coach, advisor or professor indicated it was a mistake these student athletes were making by opting for an opporturity to play pro ball. Just the opposite is true, everyone was happy! Even the official website praised these student/athletes for moving up to the next level. The only lure to stay the course for four years is the continuation of the scholarship for a 5th year to complete the degree. This is insignificant because the 5th year “carrot” is less money compared to the MLB scholarship program and can be used at any college.
Fungo

FO.. Big Grin Big Grin
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Fungo,
Great post as usual.
But I find what LouisianaTexan posted to be true in what we found in our recruiting experiences.
Before we had the meeting with the Head Coaches, we had to sit through a session with all of the people involved in the academic program. In the session they all indicated the importance of academics and what was expected of them and how they would assist in achieving those academic goals. You were expected to excel in both areas, and you were offered the opportunity because of the type of person they felt could handle the program. Not because you were the "best" in the field, or the "best" in the classroom. Rather they saw you as the person who could handle the responsibilities of pressures from the classroom and the program.
I know of one particular parent who was so upset his son didn't get an offer from a particular school and someone else did (his stats weren't as good as his son's, even teh grades). I don't think that parent realized there is a whole lot more to it than that. Knowing this other player, I see why he was chosen over the two, he was the type of individual who had what it takes to possibly succeed in both.
Schools should be on an even keel with praising students for their academic performance as well as baseball accomplishments (eg.,getting drafted).
And yes, many of the goals in programs (BB) is to see you reach the next level, which usually is that you will not be there after your junior year, not because you got poor grades, but because you were drafted. However, that is not how it is at all schools.
L LouisianaTexan10+ posts
Fungo, I didn't say they frown on players leaving early but we realize that is rare. Hey, if a player is a high draft pick, I am all for him going pro as soon as he wants to because that is what his career is going to be so he might as well get started on it. However, for the 99% who will not get drafted or spend 3 years in the minors and quit, an education is important and they better take it seriously when they are in school. Also, of course D1 coaches say their program will help the player get drafted. This is how they get them to go there rather than signing after high school or going to a juco where they can sign after their freshamn year. And, the more players they send to the draft, the better their program looks. But at the same time, unless they are total jerks, they want their players to get a degree.
Last edited by LouisianaTexan
O OldVaman500+ posts
I guess it's a matter of perspective. All college students are expected to get an education. Not all are destined to graduate.

Academic scholarship winners are expected to perform to a certain level in the classroom; if they don't they're regular, loans-out-the-wazoo students.

Division I athletes take the scholarship, so they are expected to perform on the field; if they don't they're regular, loans-out-the-wazoo students.

The scholarship makes a difference. That's why the saying, signing your life away.

Your job, so to speak, is to take care of those who are taking care of you. That's why the baseball team comes first. If you can't or don't take advantage of the opportunity to get an education, that's the way it goes.
justbaseballjustbaseball10,000+ posts
This is an interesting thread...sorry I missed it first time around.

I want to say a little bit about MY education since my son has played one year of D1 baseball.

At my place of employment we will almost never hire an engineer with a GPA lower than 3.5. About 1.5 years ago, a resume passed over my desk from a Princeton baseball player with a 3.2 GPA. We passed, in part, because we thought his grades were a little too low. We knew playing a D1 sport had to be tough, but still we passed. I NOW KNOW that this kid HAD TO BE one smart dude...one of the smartest kids in the country.

PRINCETON+BASEBALL+ENGINEERING+B+ ??.

We were out of our minds to have not hired him!
Last edited by justbaseball
observer44observer441,000+ posts
Justbaseball..would say that there is education and then there is academics. Sounds as if you Princeton man got an 4.0 in education. and a 3.2 in academics. I'll take an educated man over an academic anyday....they adapt, prioritrize, and learn to excel within difficult circumstances.

Next up...Since when is it ultimately the responsibility of anyone other than the player to get his eucation?

Lets get real...Student/players have to take some personal responsibility. If you have a son who is dedicated to his OWN education he will generally do well and get educated anywhere. Even a school that doesn't "value" education.

Conversly..If he is not going to take his education seriously he will just get by a "top" school and end up uneducated. Even if a school "values" education.

Gotta believe that all this stuff starts with the player. Yes the school is a factor but as a parent I refuse to lay it all on the school. I lay much of it on the player.
B BeenthereILHSBBWeb Old Timer
TR...He's often right when discussing this subject throughout a hundred or more posts in the past few years.

Go to the school where you want to be and graduate from if the baseball doesn't work out.

On a team of the 17 "top-notch" players that I coached at a nationally competitive summer travel team in 2002, 4 have already given up baseball in college. Don't want to deal with the bs of the coach and the game and they've realized that there is more to summers than washing jockstraps.
H HitandRun100+ posts
justbaseball - you may have made the RIGHT decision not to hire the engineer from Princeton with the 3.2. Recently Princeton instituted some tougher grading standards, but student grades out of the ivy leagues are so inflated it's a joke. Harvard graduates 80 percent with honors and at Stanford the "F" grade is a no-pass and doesn't count in the GPA. Penn is probably the worst offender of grade inflation.

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