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Baseball measurements

FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
Baseball measurements, what do they mean and are they important? Almost every time someone makes a comment about velocity, there is the “opposition” that mentions the over riding importance of location and deception. When we discuss poptime, it is quickly pointed out that “cheating” the clock probably enhanced a catcher’s poptime and there are more important aspects to catching. Batspeed and footspeed, are also targets of discussions but not to the same degree as velocity and poptime. If we agree that showcases are important, then we have to assume these measurements, which are a big part of a showcase, are important also. I’m not suggesting these measurements are what make or break a player, but I do want to stress their importance. I sense there are many that want to dispute their importance. Why? I don't know other that maybe someone cannot reach certain “magical” numbers like the elusive 90mph fastball or a 2.0 pop time.
College coaches DO offer scholarships based almost entirely on showcase evaluations and measurements. This happed with my son and I know of others that got offers too from showcase evaluations. Your thoughts?
Fungo
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B bbscout1,000+ posts
When I am watching a catcher, I look for arm strength and don't pay much attention to pre game pop times. I pay a lot of attention to real pop times in a game though.

Velocity from pitchers is important, but I only record fastballs in the strike zone.

Speed is important, because it is the only tool that plays on offense and defense.

My favorite tool is power, and I watch it in BP, but really like to see it in the game.
O Orlando1,000+ posts
All the magic numbers have to be in context. 90 mph is more important in a game and for a strike, just like an in-game and accurate 2.0.

There is so much to this game, from the five tools (and all their subdivisions, i.e. power: to all fields? on which types of pitches? LHP v RHP? upper-body strength a la McGwire or powerful line drives? what level of talent is it hit against?), to mental makeup and all that means, to physical build. The Magic Numbers are just a flashing light....they'll get the attention, but that doesn't mean they signify anything....until they are seen in context.

We'll always discuss and argue them as has been done in the past. The alternative is to decide that a pitcher doesn't have a chance without a 90+ FB, and a catcher's going nowhere without a legitimate sub 2.0 pop time. And that's just not the way it works.
D DPDad10+ posts
In the never ending quest to determine which players have the potential to play college and professional baseball systems have been designed to measure that potential. The 5 tools and their rating system, catcher pop times, the radar gun, etc.

Some coaches will feel that if a player has the accepted "measurements" he's worth taking a chance on. Other coaches will use the "measurements" but will also look at the intangibles the player has.

The bottom line is that the system is not perfect. Some players that have all the "measurements" don't pan out, and other players get overlooked because they don't have the accepted "measurements".
N NVR1100+ posts
Fungo,
Like all baseball fans, I love "measurements" in comparing players at a certain level. But, my problem is at what level should measurements become the focus? I think too much pressure is placed on young players based on reaching the particular numeric threshold, enough that many quit the sport prior to even reaching high school.
I think many baseball parents, although well intentioned, expect too much from their son based on these magic numbers. At what level should the performance numbers really become part of the game?
Now, my son as a catcher probably was slower than the magic 2.0 pop time regularly in high school. Had we been "focused" on this, he may have become frustrated, etc. My point is that at the high school level, many players can improve tremendously with proper coaching, oftentimes after high school. That's where the college coaches /scouts come in determining if the talent is there to improve with proper training. Anyway, I know I'm in the minority on this, but this is a great topic. Take care.
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
A 90 mph fastball on a gun is not important its all about location (if there son can not hit 90). The 60 time is overated if their son is 7.8 guy. The pop time really doesnt matter if their son is a 2.3, Hey he throws guys out! Power is overated if there kid is a singles guy. The fact is Velocity is very important it gets you noticed and it helps get guys out. Pop times are important (pre game) and (game pops). Pregame shows potential and game shows where your at. If a kid throws 98 in the pen and then throws 94 in the game. Are you going to forget about the 98 because he didnt throw it in the game? Speed is important and power is important. I like bbscout my number one tool I love is power. I love to see the kids that have the juice. It is electric to me. The bottom line is I dont care how many guys you are throwing out if you go to a showcase as a rising Jr SR and you throw a 2.3 it matters. And I dont care what your era this year is. You go to showcase or tryout and you are 77-79 you are not going to get the looks. But if you get up there and throw cheese you will. Might not sound fair but life aint fair and neither is baseball.
A AParent1,000+ posts
It all boils down to the complete package.

You ARE competing against other kids . If they can reach a "magic number", you need to as well OR you need to have something superior in another area to make up for it.

Yo don't hit 90 - but your location is well above the norm, you still have a chance - but keep in mind the "norm" is not the "norm" for average hs kids, but the "norm" for those kids you will be competing against at the next level.

The farther you fall behind in one area (be it speed, arm strength, hitting power, size etc.) the more you need to have somewhere else to make up for it.

The problem is - there is no easy formula that says how much better your locaton needs to be for each mph below the norm you fall, or how much arm strenth it takes to offset foot speed etc.

If there were a chart for this it would make compound interest calculations seeem easy
P PiC500+ posts
My son, to this day, has never had the "measurements", but when the team needed a GWH or a WP out of him, most of the time he delivered.

Of course now he no longer has a BA but his WP record of 17-6 in 2004 as a pitcher was a winning percentage of .739 and that's not bad.

I'm not saying this to brag but to give hope to the kids on this website who may be wondering whether they can be "good enough" to play.

IMHO if you work on your accuracy, be precise, and make sure that you eliminate any "hitches" in your throwing, batting, and fielding motions. If you can do that you can be a very effective player.

Some like "power" I will take a player who is "effective and efficient" over power anyday. A guy who can go 4 for 4 hitting four singles is a much more effective player than a guy who can hit the HR but strikes out a lot.

A guy who can throw 90+ mph but allows 6 BB's during a game is not as good a pitcher who allows 1 BB and only throws an 87 mph FB with accuracy and can hit his spots. He will win more then the 90+ mph pitcher. Why, because the BB's will make the team a loser.
Last edited by PiC
P PiC500+ posts
The potential measurement is to often the critieria over actual performance history. I can undeerstand how a kid that throws at 90+ in his late teens is more desirable than one who throws in the mid 80's. But it doesn't account for the "true" nature of maturation rates.

I can remember when I was a teenager and entered HS how I was 6'0" and 155lbs. It didn't take long but just after college I was in my mid 20's I was over 6'7" and 250lbs.

I think to much is made of early maturation types and not enough is understood about "late bloomers".

I didn't hit the 92+ mph level until I was 23 years old. I suspect it will be the same with my son.
B bbscout1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Moc1:
Good post Orlando, David Eckstein is below ML avg in all categories except maybe
speed and he's no burner. How do you measure heart?


The funny thing is that Eckstein is not below average in all things except speed. His is an above average runner and is an above average hitter as his .278 lifetime average shows. He is also a solid average fielder. He has a higher lifetime average than the following guys who are all in the Hall of Fame.....Carlton Fisk, Willie McCovey, Joe Morgan, Mike Schmidt, Gary Carter and Harmon Killebrew. He has a below average arm and well below average power. He has three solid tools......run, hit and field.
W windmill100+ posts
What it comes down to is getting the opportunity to show that the numbers are not the "end all and be all". But you need to get the opportunity to show that - it's hard when you don't have numbers that impress on paper. Realistically, if I have a choice of going to look at a kid throwing 90 or a kid throwing 78 "that gets guys out" who am I going to see??? The 90 guy, who else!! I guess the feeling is you can work with a kid that throws straight or wild 90, a sub 2.0 popper that misses the target, or a 6.6 burner with hands of stone [we call them Roberto Duran for you old boxing fans]. It's much harder to teach a 79 slow roller with "good stuff and command" to throw 90, or a 2.3 popper to go 2.0. The foundation has to be there. Yeah, you want gamers, you want guys with the heart of a lion, but you would much rather those guys had that heart in a Dave Winfield body!! Too many people aren't realistic - Coach May nailed it - the people who don't think the numbers matter are the ones that don't have the numbers!! They do matter, but so do the results. A coach or scout isn't going to go too far out on a limb for a kid throwing 79 because "he gets guys out"; he will go out on that limb for a kid throwing seeds - partly because it's the thing to do and partly because it's safer - it's less of a risk to sign the 90 guy. Why wouldn't you??
Truth be told, my kid play an excellent 2B [but he is SLOW]; he also led his HS and Legion team in ERA last year as a sophomore, but did it throwing 79 with a 62 changeup. The differnece is he and I are both smart enough to know that those numbers aren't going to get him much interest - he needs to improve on the numbers that matter - the MPH and the 60 time, and still have the end results: W's, ERA, BA, etc. Again - you have to be realistic.
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
Windmill you are right on the money. The fact that you are shooting it straight with your son will only help him achieve his goals. When my kid was 9 10 11 12 13 all he wanted to do was go to the field hit alot and throw some. You know have some fun. I put the facts in his face and I told him that that was all well and good but in order to take his game to another level he was going to have to realize that working out was more than having fun. Running Lifting Plyos agility drills etc. Are you willing to pay the price or are you too lazy to put the work in. I really get tired of hearing this statement " Its supposed to be fun". So lets see no running because that hurts. No lifting I might get sore. No plyos they are just too painfull. If its not fun to work to get better at what you love to do. YOU NEED TO GO PLAY SOMETHING ELSE. I dont see anything wrong with making young kids understand that its not all hit and throw and then McDonalds and a pool. How about hard work go cut some grass pick up some down limbs in the yard and then some ball. Sick of this spoild A** mentality of some people. I want tough guys not spoiled guys.
N NVR1100+ posts
Coach,
I think you and I are at opposite ends of the spectrum on the importance of measurements for young players. To sum up my interpretation of your statements, "Measurements are not important to those who can't..."
I just think that young players should be focused on the game, not the individual bench marks i.e. "I have a better pop time than you, etc." I tend to think parents are more concerned about these measurements initially than the player.
Serious players will take the game very serious as they progress. They will work hard.It's natural.
I guess the showcase format has worked its way down to high school, Babe Ruth and Little League. I'm not sure if that is good or bad.
My son progressed through high school playing the game, again not focusing much energy on "measurements". He knew he could throw a runner out, hit the ball hard and have a good time. He started out as an average player and developed into a pretty good player. As a high school player, one "measurement" that is framed on my office wall is his 2003 1st team All-American honor by Baseball America. Almost as good as a sub 2.0 pop time. Take care.
Bighit15Bighit155,000+ posts
My problem when it comes to pitching measurements is that it is assumed that the guy with velocity doesn't have location, deception, and movement. It is almost always assumed that the guy throwing slower does have those qualities.

If a pitcher has size, velocity, movement, deception and location. He will get drafted before the guy without size or velocity, all things being equal. jmo

Having good location doesn't mean diddly if you have no movement or deception.
P PiC500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bighit15:
My problem when it comes to pitching measurements is that it is assumed that the guy with velocity doesn't have location, deception, and movement. It is almost always assumed that the guy throwing slower does have those qualities.

If a pitcher has size, velocity, movement, deception and location. He will get drafted before the guy without size or velocity, all things being equal. jmo

Having good location doesn't mean diddly if you have no movement or deception.


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You'll get no argument from me on your assertions, but we all know that the development of a pitcher to throw at over 90+ mph with location, movement and deception(speed differentials) by their teenage years is a phenom not the norm.

I still am concerned about the risk associated with a kid throwing that hard due to distention of the arm joints, and potential to injury to the growth plates.

I guess I could have taught my son to throw much harder than he does, since he can get it up over 90+ now, but he doesn't when he's pitching because our emphasis was on precision not velocity. He hits his spots very comfortably at mid to high 80's and most of the time he gets the side out in less then 15 pitches. I think that as long as he sees he can do that at the current level of competition I don't think he is going to opt to "bring it" if he doesn't have too.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
I’ve stated my love for late bloomers in another thread. I’m a big believer!

Regarding measurements: I like to think all things are measured or judged in some way, that includes everything from heart to velocity. Any and all information is important.

That said, there are “measurements” that in baseball are very important. Velocity, running times, raw power, pop times, etc. are among those “measurements that are most important. If a player can not run, can not throw, can not hit and doesn’t have any power, it doesn’t matter how much heart or great character he has. He very likely will be a big success in life, but not as a professional baseball player. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. This doesn’t mean, there’s no hope and that young players should quit playing because there is “always” that late bloomer possibility. Most everyone loves the underdog.

Often I hear people state they would rather have the pitcher who throws mid 80s with good control and command of three pitches over the mid 90s guy with no other pitches and no control. Well no kiddin! So would every MLB club if they had to put them on the mound tomorrow and if that were the comparison. However, they’ll continually be searching for the hard throwers who show signs of being able to develop the other things. On the other hand, colleges might prefer the guy who’s ready right now. The college doesn’t have 4 years to develop pitchers before using them in a varsity game.

There are several parents who post here who have sons pitching at the highest level colleges or in professional baseball. I don’t know if there’s even one that thinks their son would be where he’s at if he were a low to mid 80s pitcher even with all the other good qualities he might have.

Same with catchers, people say all that counts is whether they throw the runner out or not. Well you can’t argue that point because of course that is the goal. However once again asking the parents of catchers who play at the very highest levels… Anyone know of any 2.2 poppers getting scholarships or getting drafted as catchers? A good quick pitcher and an accurate arm will get many base runners at the high school level. At the upper levels the players run faster and get better jumps. They know what they’re doing. The 2.2 pop times that become 2.3, 2.4 pop times in the game, just don’t (can’t) get the job done. If the catcher doesn’t have arm strength, he is always somewhat limited. People only need to watch catchers in professional ball or top college catchers throw. You will see a lot of very strong arms with quick releases.

These are just examples of why numbers are in fact important. The pop time is the pop time. It doesn’t have anything to do with how good or how fast the runner is or how quick the pitcher gets it to the plate. I will always prefer the catcher with the best pop times and stronger arm (Rodriguez) unless he’s not accurate no matter what the stats (Piazza) might show.

Would you rather have the player who has the most infield hits but runs H-1 in 4.5 or the player with less infield hits who runs H-1 in 4.1. Can anyone make an argument that the guy with the most infield hits (production) is faster than the kid with the better time (measurement)?
S Starzz500+ posts
The important measurement is from the coach that sees you play and says "I have a spot for you". Too much effort is spent on the other stuff. If you can play it will show...you must work hard at all times and someone may see you as their guy.

Talking 5 tools and measurements can impede a player to just play the game and have fun. Especially the younger players as NVR1 stated.

You can push a kid so hard and so long...but it may backfire on you.
Bighit15Bighit155,000+ posts
quote:
You'll get no argument from me on your assertions, but we all know that the development of a pitcher to throw at over 90+ mph with location, movement and deception(speed differentials) by their teenage years is a phenom not the norm.

I still am concerned about the risk associated with a kid throwing that hard due to distention of the arm joints, and potential to injury to the growth plates.


I hear what you are saying, however, by your logic your son should not drive because it can be dangerous. We all know that pitching a baseball is an unnatural act. If you choose to not allow your son to reach his velocity potential, that is up to you. One can still could throw a breaking ball and hurt his arm. Even if he is careful with his velocity. It happens all the time. So why let him throw a breaking ball? It is a risk that a player takes to be the best he can be. You choose not to. That is fine.

quote:
He hits his spots very comfortably at mid to high 80's and most of the time he gets the side out in less then 15 pitches. I think that as long as he sees he can do that at the current level of competition I don't think he is going to opt to "bring it" if he doesn't have too.


Step up 2 levels and see if it works.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Starzz,

I agree with the coach saying he has a spot for you as being most important. However, in baseball the 5 tools and more are very important ingredients to the game. They should never take any of the fun out of the game. But they exsist and I think it can be advantageous to know what is needed.

Kind of like... If you can only high jump 3 feet, it might be fun, but you need to get better if you want to take it very far. The kids that make it are the ones who do push themselves. I agree, that parents doing all the pushing could likely backfire.

By the way, we talk to coaches every day about players. Somehow the "measurements" are always asked about. I just don't think a player can put too much effort into improving the "measurements".

I do agree that having fun should never take a back seat. Also, I think your talking about very young players. Having fun and enjoying themselves is much more important than tools at that age.
P PiC500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Starzz,

I agree with the coach saying he has a spot for you as being most important. However, in baseball the 5 tools and more are very important ingredients to the game. They should never take any of the fun out of the game. But they exsist and I think it can be advantageous to know what is needed.

Kind of like... If you can only high jump 3 feet, it might be fun, but you need to get better if you want to take it very far. The kids that make it are the ones who do push themselves. I agree, that parents doing all the pushing could likely backfire.

By the way, we talk to coaches every day about players. Somehow the "measurements" are always asked about. I just don't think a player can put too much effort into improving the "measurements".

I do agree that having fun should never take a back seat. Also, I think your talking about very young players. Having fun and enjoying themselves is much more important than tools at that age.


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All of your points have validity.

My son is well aware of the 5 tools and their measurements.

He just doesn't concern himself with it. He wants to pitch, play ball, and enjoy the game...and I'm not sure that he is thinking beyond his next outing.

His first game of college ball is today, and I'm not sure he will even get to throw as the sophomores who are destined for D1's are in the rotation above him. I believe he is #1 in the relief rotation. So we will see how it goes today.
P PiC500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by FrankF:
This might not be the best example since 102 MPH is rare indeed, but for those who don't think velocity is the most important ingredient, BA has an article that is a great read. Personally I'm hoping he can get it together. He sounds like a great kid.


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I can only say there for the grace of God goes my son. this is exactly the reason I went the other way with him. I figured bring him along slowly let him gain confidence based upon his on abilities to achieve a level of success and gradually increase the tempo as the "correctness and precision" of his form and throwing motion become more ingrained with each year of complete "control and command" work.

If they don't work to correct this kid's mechanics, over letting him continue to "overthrow", they will end up destroying him.
P PiC500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Dad04:
quote:
If they don't work to correct this kid's mechanics, over letting him continue to "overthrow", they will end up destroying him.


Who is "they"?


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From the article:

If anyone says confidence comes first, then success—I think they’re wrong," Neighborgall said. "You get success first, and then it builds."

Neighborgall felt so confident heading out of Fayetteville that he decided to keep throwing through the fall to keep his momentum going. His newfound command carried into the early spring. "We’ve got him straightened out," Moranda said.

_______________________________________________


Ultimately Neighborgall is responsibile since he is an adult now.

I just thnk his mechanics should be broken down with a rigorous and disciplined incremental corrective regimen, as well as givng him some instruction on understanding the true intention of pitching, which is throwing with location first, movement second, and speed as the least important factor. The fact that he can throw the ball at 98 is not the reason to throw it that fast.

The reason to throw the ball 95+ mph is to let the batter see it, to let him know I have it, make him worry about it, but you never throw it for a strike unless you absolutely have to.

The whole idea is more about using the psychology of pitching versus the psychology of hitting, but it has nothing to do with brute force. Pitching has a component of both fluidity and ballet in the attributes required for the balanced aspects of it's correctness throughout the throwing motion.

Neighborgall is "overthrowing" and needs "coaching" not rah-rah attaboy cr*ap.
Dad04Dad045,000+ posts
pic

I agree with you. At one point he was stepping closed two feet, according to the article. Unfortunately colleges mostly do not have the luxury of developing pitchers. They go look for pitchers, bring pitchers in, scrimmage them, and keep the best, using them to win games allowing their coaches continued employment. they start looking to replace the winners every year. They have to.

The bulk of their coaching activities are devoted to the players directly responsible for the wins. If a coach has a pitcher who walks 30 batters in 10 innings, you wonder why the kid was allowed to throw the last 9 innings at all.

Bobby Moranda is probably dealing with 25 pitchers every fall. If he spends all his time with a kid who has trouble playing catch, he's in trouble. Apparently, JN has been a project requiring intense remedial instruction that is tough to get in that setting.

I've never seen him pitch, but I get the impression he throws hard depite his mechanics. Ultimately, when he straighens out the delivery he may throw harder.

Hindsight being 20/20, he may have gotten closer to the big leagues by signing out of high school and rebuilding his delivery in the obscurity of the minor leagues, without the pressure of winning.
Last edited by Dad04
P PiC500+ posts
Dad04

What you describe is exactly why I went the other way with my son. Instead of encouraging him to throw as hard as he could I instructed him to throw at a speed, at or on the edge of being wild, but none-the-less, at a speed he knew he could control. That has been the methodology, as well as running all simulation drills when working on one single aspect of the pitching form or the throwing motion while doing it at 50% speed or less.

It seems to have paid off as he has matured and his manhood has come in the strength is in the command and control of his pitching. The velocity has being increasing gradually and is at an average of 84.

This afternoon he pitched in his first college game when he went into the game with men on 2nd and 3rd two outs, and the score tied in the top of the 7th inning. He blew a high FB by the batter to get the last out in the 7th. Then pitched an uneventful 8th and 9th to get his first SAVE and first college WIN 5-3.

Life is good.
P PiC500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
PiC,

While I might at times disagree with your thinking. Wow!!! congatulations to your son on his great college debut.

Of course, the way you described it... it would not be a save... but that's just nitpickin... sounds like a memorable win. Hope he keeps it up!


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OOPS, my bad, you're correct...no SAVE just a win.

thanks for the kind thoughts.
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