Baseball Scholly Pulls Question...

I have heard a lot of D1 baseball scholarships being pulled. That may not be any more than the past but with the transfer rule, it impacts the player much more than in the past.

My understanding from NCAA is that if the player was a true walk-on and was not recruited (no more than two recruiting calls) and did not receive baseball dollars, the D1 Player can transfer to another D1 program without sitting out for one year.

The player still needs permission to talk to another NCAA institution from the program which they are leaving.

I mentioned this on another thread, and people said it didnt't happen.I know of quite a few kids that their scholarships were pulled.I think its absolutely horrible.
Second, to what homerun said:the key if you have been recruited(more than 2 phone calls) and did not receive money you can not move to another D1.
Obs44 I have not heard of that loophole.the kids I have heard, several went to JC and another is going to another D1 but has to sit.
What is the NCAA doing to help these players:they say the no trasfer rule is so kids do not leave the schools, it hurts the graduation rate, but then you have coaches cutting kids schollys, basically saying adios,now the kid can stay at the school for that year and keep the scholly, but most players want to play and dont.
That is just no way to treat kids.What happend to developing players in your program?

A lot of "I heards", and I don't doubt it's happening.
Let's mention the schools and coaches so players considering these programs can be forewarned.

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with the transfer rule, it impacts the player much more than in the past.

I agree with this...

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My understanding from NCAA is that if the player was a true walk-on and was not recruited (no more than two recruiting calls) and did not receive baseball dollars, the D1 Player can transfer to another D1 program without sitting out for one year.

And I agree with this...BUT...are players are being told that, regardless or recruting circumstances, or in spite of recruting circumstances, as long as the Baseball money was pulled by the school there is NOT a sit out year?...

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Let's mention the schools and coaches so players considering these programs can be forewarned.

Thats never been the "style" here on the hsbaseballweb...at least not in public. (Say whatever you want in PM's). And there's good reason for it...bias. Nearly every parent who has had a kid recruited or play college ball can tell you horror stories about either opposing schools or their own son's school...mostly hearsay.

Add onto that the fact that baseball is a small world and believe it or not, coaches/scouts read the internet and this board.

We could all tell stories...but we won't.

Lets stick to the questions asked.

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I am not for over recruiting in any form...however it IS different in my mind if you understand the risks going in...for example a recruited walk on who KNOWS going in what the risks, rewards and #'s are....is MUCH dfferent than being surpised when you get there.

IF indeed this is the new and accepted method of dealing with players to allow more and more freshman in the door, by regularly shedding soph's...then I think that players ought to be aware of what is going on..I certainly would want to know and want to ask if I were being recruited...

AND if I were a Soph and there was an loophole out, to avoid the sit out rule I would want it to be common knowledge....and I woudl want to be the first to know before it happened,....AND if programs where "fudging" the contact data to save me a sit out I would want to know that as well...

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quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:

quote:

Let's mention the schools and coaches so players considering these programs can be forewarned.

Thats never been the "style" here on the hsbaseballweb...at least not in public. And there's good reason for it...bias. Nearly every parent who has had a kid recruited or play college ball can tell you horror stories about either opposing schools or their own son's school...mostly hearsay.

Add onto that the fact that baseball is a small world and believe it or not, coaches/scouts read the internet and this board.

As a moderator, I will edit out any specific mention of a school or player (by name).

We could all tell stories...but we won't.

Lets stick to the questions asked.

That's exactly why I didn't mention names or programs...but I think IF it is going on or growing that it would be something to be aware of...IF it is going on and growing then the coaches are certainly aware...and I would want to ask a coach up front...Not against competiton BUT I would NOT want to be surrpised by this practice...

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but I think IF it is going on or growing that it would be something to be aware of...

My hope as well 44.

Are you referring to freshmen aswell having schollys pulled?
NLIs are binding for the 1st year. Coaches have been known to convince a freshman he no longer wants to give up his scholly in the past but not aware of a way around the sit rule. Possibly both parties agree to forget the NLI! ever happened.
As far as post freshman year it has been going on for years. Don't know if it is worse now or not. So many players leave programs for one reason or another. Also not sure if there is a loop hole around the sit rule for these players either.

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Most every case I have seen go like this...

Heavily recruited freshman...has a good/bad/poor year (I've seen all three)...

Goes in for his exit interview at the end of his Freshman year (having played that spring)..."We love your game but we are NOT going to reknew your baseball money. But, we would love to have you back as a recruited walk on in the fall"...

Player is then told by his "advisor" or the program, that because of the fact that he left in good standing and because it was a program decision...that he may not have to sit out...that he can go directly to another DI and play...

44
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44 can't see that making a difference. You have to be released even if it is or isn't a program decision. It hurts the APR in either case.

I often wonder if BB APRs weren't so poor because of these practices.
When I look at player turn over at colleges it amazes me. Guys who start at a college and leave before graduating is reflected in low APRs. You would think that would put pressure on coaches to not over recruit.

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Goes in for his exit interview at the end of his Freshman year (having played that spring)..."We love your game but we are NOT going to reknew your baseball money. But, we would love to have you back as a recruited walk on in the fall"...

I have heard that as well, and I think its wrong.What is that kid supposed to do now? what if he cant afford to pay for the school without the scholarship money?And now he has to find somewhere else to play?or quit playing and just go to school? I just think its wrong and I don't like it.

One guy told me he was struggling on the mound and the coach was so upset with him told him he was not renewing his scholarship.
We have a local college that has several players who had their schools withdrawn.
There are also situations players quit at the exit meeting for various reasons.

I would have to think, though, that even if you don't have to sit out you're not in a good position anyway. A good student with a lot of academic money will probably have trouble getting as good of an academic award at the next school.

For what it's worth, I am not aware of any loophole that would allow a scholarship player to transfer to a D1 and play without sitting a year. (Well, excepting discontinued baseball program, discontinued course of study, church mission, etc.)

A player who has signed a NLI, but has not yet enrolled may, if he obtains a release from the school, enroll at a different D1 or D2 without penalty.

For D1, a returning player must be informed by July 1 if his aid is being renewed. During the next year, his (possibly new) level of aid may not be reduced but may be increased.

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Good info as always...I will keep an eye for updates...loopholes.

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imo the ncaa nuked transfers, there are no loop holes, only victums....

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Originally posted by CollegeParent:
imo the ncaa nuked transfers, there are no loop holes, only victums....

Yep...that's exactly what I thought...

...and despite "advisors" to the contrary, this would appear confirmed.

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If scholarships are being pulled at a higher rate, I have a hunch as to why it is happening.

This year, D1 programs are being required by the NCAA to reduce the number of athletic money players on their rosters from 30 to 27. Assuming that the majority of programs have 30 scholly players, that's 3 players affected for every program, which adds up to a lot.

As others have commented, this can be pretty tough on the players who have their monies cut. First, it casts doubt on the coach's confidence in their abilities/potential to contribute in the future and pressures them to scramble and find another place to play. If the player wants to stay at the school for whatever reason, the financial toll can be sizeable; it can be pretty hard to cough up an extra $5,000-$10,000 per year to make up for the shortfall, especially with the current credit crunch.

For the sake of discussion, let's assume that some of the players who have their schollies cut decide to stay at their schools as a recruited walk-on. While some schools don't over-recruit, other programs bring on way more than 35 in the fall and these players could find themselves in a large group of 12-15 recruited walk-ons with only 8 roster spots available at the end of the fall semester. If these players find themselves cut in November or December, talk about a double whammy -- first, they lose their athletic money and then they lose their spot on the team.

Some may comment, "Deal with it -- that's just the way it is." True, but it doesn't negate the fact that these scenarios can be pretty devastating to players and their families. I feel for them.

As an aside, here are a few observations and predictions regarding recruited walk-ons:

* Because of the new 27 roster cap for athletic money players, recruited walk-ons will become increasingly prevalent.

* High school prospects with excellent grades will be increasingly valued, since they can get academic money and not count toward the 27 cap.

* The same goes for prospects whose parents are wealthy and don't need tuition assistance.

* Some recruited walk-ons have "job security" because their schools don't over-recruit, but others risk losing their spot on the team if their schools bring on more than the max number of 35 in the fall.

* It would behoove every high school prospect to ask LOTS of questions about over-recruiting practices at the schools they are interested in so they are fully aware of what they're getting into before they sign on the dotted line.

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The same goes for prospects whose parents are wealthy and don't need tuition assistance.

I am learning this summer that this is very much happening. Esp. at the private schools.I have talked to several parents who pay full tuition at private schools and their kids play.Until this summer I didnt realize how much this occurred.

Infield08,

Thats a good point about the reduced number of schollys per team. I forgot about that.

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Originally posted by Infield08:
* It would behoove every high school prospect to ask LOTS of questions about over-recruiting practices at the schools they are interested in so they are fully aware of what they're getting into before they sign on the dotted line.

Exactly...that's why it was brought up...I'm not against competition for roster positions per se, as long you understand the situation and risks and rewards going in...but having it sprung on you later is difficult on a variety of levels. As the NCAA rules change so does "the game" best to be fully aware of both the books rules and the way that the game is being played "on the field."

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My son was one of these players this year and to say it was a kick in the gut is putting it mildly. He is going into his junior year at a big D1. He knows of around 6-7 of his teammates who also had their scholarships cancelled but he is by far the most "high-profile" to lose his. He holds the school's record for relief appearances for season (broke it this year) and had the 2nd to lowest ERA on the team. Next year, he'll have the most experience of any of the returning pitchers.He's been the most used reliever for the last two years. Freshman All-American two years ago. He's definitely performed and earned his spot and it's one of those situations where players are saying if he could have his pulled, anybody can.

When he came out of his meeting and called me,he was in shock-completely side-swiped-as was I. (He's had about 1/3 of everything covered by the baseball scholly and we thought he'd get it upped this year.) I really thought he was joking. I've never heard him so down and upset. The coach told him he would have it back next year plus more-they're rotating some of the smaller amounts to try to get some of bigger recruits to sign and having to give bigger amounts to them. (The program is definitely one on the rise and so is now competing for some of the stud players.)

I talked to to my son 4 times that day-he was done and ready to quit-it took everything I had (long distance)to keep him from doing something rash. He packed up his stuff in the middle of the night and came home (long drive.) He's since talked to his pitching coach several times and some of the older guys (who this had happened to last year-we didn't know about it,had heard some rumors but didn't know details) and is in a better place about it now.

Maybe we're being naive, but we really don't feel like he's being run off. There was no talk about what else he could do( transfer,etc.)from the coaches, just what is expected of him for next year as a leader and expected starter. Seems to be more of a "take it for the team" type deal-who knows? I guess we'll find out next year. Until then he's having a really good summer so far playing summer ball and hopefully will have a good fall and continue to be a major part of the team like he has been-just as a non-scholarship player-(which don't get me wrong-we still feel it's wrong but have moved past that for son's sake...) Thank goodness he still has his academic money...

Sorry this is so rambling, it's still hard to process. Since my son is returning to the team, I'm, of course not mentioning any names so don't ask!

bballmom4life - great post! and welcome to the hsbbweb!

I'll be the first to tell you that life is not fair or equal at the D1 level. There are non-producers out there getting 80% or more while producers like your son are asked to take less.

Couple of things....

No one will know that he had his scholarship taken away so I would keep that information private and especially not tell any of his teammates.

This is one of those times where you use the snub/setback to fuel his baseball career to greater heights. You encourage him to go out and put it back in their faces with his performance. Go out and tear it up and he will ultimately have the last laugh.

I always felt playing in college was more about the opportunity than the money. Don't get me wrong, I am just like the next guy and will take all the money there is to get but at the end of the day, the performance on the field is the great equalizer and transcends money imho.

If a player is not receiving athletic money, he may apply with the NCAA for a one time waiver of the 1 year in residence (sit out). This waiver must be accompanied by a release from the current school. I know of some players that have received this release, and have never heard of this waiver not being granted. This is not however automatic or a loophole.

In the circumstances I know of, these players had never received any athletic aid, so I am not sure how it is viewed by the NCAA if the player had received aid and then had his scholarship pulled.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:

quote:

Let's mention the schools and coaches so players considering these programs can be forewarned.

Thats never been the "style" here on the hsbaseballweb...at least not in public. (Say whatever you want in PM's). And there's good reason for it...bias. Nearly every parent who has had a kid recruited or play college ball can tell you horror stories about either opposing schools or their own son's school...mostly hearsay.

JBB,
I would disagree with you slightly on this. It has been the style to name names, when there is direct knowledge. I.e. posts about over recruiting, incoming class sizes vs. current roster size, running kids off. While you are right, we are not the morality police for college recruiting, we are sharers of information that is factual and accurate...good and bad.

Cutting of scholarships has a long and sordid history.

Over recruiting, or players unexpectedly returning (e.g., a junior who didn't go pro when they thought he would) are things that put the program in a bind given all the rules. Cutting scholarships is how they make ends meet.

I have not observed an increase in kids getting zeroed out myself, but if it is happening, the reason may be the 25% minimum rule. In years past a kid might've gotten cut from 30% to 20%. Now, if you go below 25%, you fall off the cliff. The NCAA in its infinite wisdom has said that there can be no 20% deals.

Thanks again, NCAA, for being unbelievably stupid.

I will say, I've never heard of it happening to a kid who has performed as BBMom4Life has said hers did. I would be inclined to reply to the coaches' statement by simply saying, "I'm sorry, but that is not acceptable. I need my scholarship and I have earned it. I respectfully ask that you rethink your plans."

I hear all the time about how parents need to butt out because their sons are not kids but young men. (Despite the fact that it's often the parents' money that's being spent in these meetings, not the player's.) Well OK then, if these discussions are supposedly man to man, then both sides should be permitted to speak their minds as long as they do so respectfully. And if coaches truly think of their players as young men, they should understand that a man will stand up for himself, and that a "my way or the highway" approach to what is really comparable to an employment annual review is not appropriate.

Quite candidly I don't know what a player would have to lose by speaking up. And really, maybe he should look into transferring. If he's thinking of going pro after JR year, then the coaches' promise of money his senior year (which by the way is not something you can take to the bank, either) is worthless to him. If he's thinking of staying in school for 4 years, then a threat to transfer is credible and might help him to negotiate in a situation where it appears they are taking him for granted, maybe even just taking advantage of him.

BBMom, what would happen if your son sent an e-mail that said, "I have been thinking about our meeting and I would respectfully ask that you reconsider. I need my scholarship and quite candidly I believe I have earned my scholarship. I was caught quite off guard when you indicated I would get nothing this year. But after a period of careful reflection, I do not think this action is justified or appropriate. Your reply would be appreciated."

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bballmom4life...YIKES!...Very, very sorry to hear that...but thanks so much for having the courage to share your story, it brings the discussion really front and center. Great to take the attitude that you are not being run off...I would certainly hope that the cach would go a long ay toward assurignt eh player that he has a strong and continuing place in the program...I would ask for that strong assurance. While it is only verbal, and holds no legal weigth, it my world it holds moral weight and I will call people on that if need be.

Observations...

- If we needed one more in a littany of reasons to keep academics high here is another one. It also may be possible to increase academic aid if there is no baseball $, I would reasearch that. May be something extra that compliance will allow.

- While I understand taking a more determined tone...have to be very careful, as suggested in previous posts. In these instances it is really hard for a player to take a stance when the coach holds all the cards, players are very aware of the attitude/PT relationship. I would offer this option to my son and let him decide.

- When this happens players have the "legal" right to appeal through the AD and a hearing, a two week window to appeal the decision. On the other hand, again, it is really swimming upstream and I am certain that it can get acrimonious...and that can have consequnces if a player stays an gets his $ back or not. Again players are very sensitive to this.

- While I understand the desire and value to keeping these thigs secret, a team is a VERY small and very tight world. It has been my expereince that players all know whao is getting what, if not to the exact % then at least who is big and who is small. While I would not make it a point of going out and announcing it to the world...IF it gets out there may be theraputic value, players of all people understand and empathise and teams can be so tight. Hard on a player to keep secrets from peers.

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This is one of those times where you use the snub/setback to fuel his baseball career to greater heights. You encourage him to go out and put it back in their faces with his performance. Go out and tear it up and he will ultimately have the last laugh.

Yep.

- Part of the real issue here is the DI-DI sit out. Makes a transfer reall hard. Almost have to go away from DI, and as an uppclassman have to look at class transfer.

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JBB,
I would disagree with you slightly on this. It has been the style to name names, when there is direct knowledge. I.e. posts about over recruiting, incoming class sizes vs. current roster size, running kids off. While you are right, we are not the morality police for college recruiting, we are sharers of information that is factual and accurate...good and bad.

CPLZ,

Those were my thoughts as well. Read many threads where schools and (some) coaches were outed for their behavior.

BBMon,

Your comment of "not going to name names so don't ask" sounds kind of harsh. Why give us your experience if we can't use it to prevent our son from attending that school. I would hope that a PM would be ok to get that info. Either way, hopefully your son does get the last laugh and things work out for him. Sounds like they may with the talent he posses.

The NCAA really should do something about this. In other sports, scholarships are almost never taken away unless behavior or work ethic is an issue. Baseball programs have to live up to their commitments and eat their mistakes just like those other programs do. Don't punish the player because you didn't properly evaluate his talent or budget correctly.

Naming names and schools wont serve anyone or any purpose. Each player and each school/team is an individual situation that really cannot be applied to another school/team or player.

My son will be entering his freshman year at a D1 on a %scholly and this thread has amazingly informational.

Really good stuff here... if that ever happens to my son I wont be as sideswiped at BBmom4life was..

(BTW, bbmom I applaud your good attitude. I hope it works our for your son.)

quote:

Naming names and schools wont serve anyone or any purpose. Each player and each school/team is an individual situation that really cannot be applied to another school/team or player.

Could not disagree more. While it might be taboo to discuss it on this public forum, using PM's would serve a purpose to let others know that school A has a history of pulling scholarship at will. If it prevents one athlete from attending that school and having his scholly pulled after year two, then I think it served a great purpose.

If it is done in a proper way, I think it could serve the parent and or athlete greatly. Isn't that what this site is all about. To help steer the parent/athlete in the right direction with knowledge learned from others.

To be honest, I'm a little surprised there are those who would not want that info readily available.

Not trying to be a Rebel here guy's, but just trying to understand why some feel it's not a big issue about knowing what schools are putting athletes in terrible situations.

Interesting how people are starting to talk about this. A few short years ago it was considered heresy. There are many great players that have had this happen. BB commitment is for 1 year

BBmom4life- I am so sorry for you and your family. What a terrible thing to be blindsided with. Part of the purpose of public forums like this is to help educate people seeking advice. However, I agree with you about not releasing your son's school name. He still has to deal with the coaches and it would most likely hurt him even more. Good luck to you guys as you navigate the treacherous waters ahead. Keep us posted and thanks again for sharing.

I think much of this goes back to coaches not recruiting effectively for their program. Maybe verbaling a sophomore isn't such a good idea! Hard to tell how they'll continue to develop.

One of the ways to orchestrate change is to continue to talk about situations like these. Coaches need to know parents are informed and knowledgeable about the recruiting process. If we all sweep it under the rug it may continue to occur. Ask lots of questions during the recruiting process and hope the coaches have enough integrity to stand by their word in the future.

BBmom...
I'm so sorry that your family had to go through this. Unfortunately, I think its been going on for years. The first reaction is to blame the coach, but in reality, I really believe the culprit is the NCAA and the complicated, inequitable scholarship formulas they force coaches to use when trying to put together a competitive team.

In my opinion, every competitive collegiate sport should pay every athlete that makes a team roster on their campus an equal amount based only on years of collegiate playing experience. Incoming freshman would get the same amount in every sport on their campus and would earn small increases each year. If they're cut, they're free to look elsewhere. If they quit, they have to sit out a year. Campus athletic budgets would determine the amount for each step in their program. Academic, merit, need based grants and scholarships could be added to that amount by the individual.
Simple, fair, and easy to administer.

Just an idea.

quote:

Just an idea. Smile

No, that's a great idea Liberty. The NCAA should be all about incentives for keeping students on campus. Unfortunately, we all know the NCAA is all about money.

OK we went through this. Son was a true walk on. You can get the NCAA waiver and that isn't hard. BUT, check the conference rules. Some conference will make you sit a year if you transfer to a school in the same conference. My advice would be to have plenty of video ready of your son because that will be what he needs to transfer. Mine had a 0.00 ERA. Honestly take Bobblehead's advice "if they aren't showing money go someplace else". That is very accurate is today's college baseball world.

Sad fact: if you didn't have any 'academic money' he also earned I bet he wouldn't have to 'take one for the team'... best wishes on coming out of it all the better.

note: when I was coaching at a small school with small scholly's we were told the model to follow was to give less aid each year; that way by the time the student is getting closer to graduation he gets so little; but can't leave because of the costs he would incur. (reason number 14 I left that life for the high school route)... I am not saying this is what your school is doing but I am saying that this business plan exists for athletes and non-athletes