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Depends on position
If we are talking about position players, I vote for hitting for power. Let us assume at first the player can have only one of these tools. The player that hits for power will have at least two hitting spots open. He can DH and will be batting fourth or fifth in most college and professional baseball lineups.
The player who plays good defense but has no arm or speed and can't hit will not break into the starting lineup and would, at best, be a later in the game replacement.
The player that has the arm and nothing else will pitch.
The player that has speed and nothing else is a pinch runner.
The player that hits for average and has nothing else must compete for playing time at DH to get into the starting lineup and will most likely lose that position to the guy with power. He will be a pinch hitter.
But the truth is that almost everyone has more than one good tool. It is the right combination of tools for your position that keeps you in the lineup.
The player who plays good defense but has no arm or speed and can't hit will not break into the starting lineup and would, at best, be a later in the game replacement.
The player that has the arm and nothing else will pitch.
The player that has speed and nothing else is a pinch runner.
The player that hits for average and has nothing else must compete for playing time at DH to get into the starting lineup and will most likely lose that position to the guy with power. He will be a pinch hitter.
But the truth is that almost everyone has more than one good tool. It is the right combination of tools for your position that keeps you in the lineup.
I like hitting for average.
If you can become a consistant hitter as a position player you will be valuable. The power is the last thing to come and sometimes doesn't ever come at all.
If you can become a consistant hitter as a position player you will be valuable. The power is the last thing to come and sometimes doesn't ever come at all.
quote:us assume at first the player can have only one of these tools. The player that hits for power will have at least two hitting spots open. He can DH and will be batting fourth or fifth in most college and professional baseball lineups.
I still say speed is what gets people most easibly noticed. Coaches think they can teach hitting and fielding. Arm strength can be improved easier than running speed in most cases.
As for most important, i would say hitting for average.
speed will get you noticed but if you cannot hit you go nowhere--- if you can hit and dont have great speed you still can succeed--the kid who can hit always gets into the lineup, somewhere
I agree with TR, if you can't hit its tough to get into the lineup.
For the purposes of the poll, I think it is unrealistic to assume that all four other tools are poor and there is one superb tool. It is probably more realistic to assume the other four are only "average".
In doing so, I would say arm strenth is #1. It is the tool that will keep you in baseball the longest. Also, a kid with a strong arm will most likely pitch until the other skills improve.
Someone once said that baseball is built on pitching, defense, and offense in that order.
One could make individual arguments for the other tools in picking a kid, but I think in all four cases it would depend on the needs of the team. For example, a guy who hits for power but strikes out a lot might be cut for the guy who hits for average power and superb average. (Who would trade Ichiro for Giambi?)
But arm strenth? Take that guy with the cannon arm every time. We'll work on his defense, and we'll work on his average and power and speed.
In doing so, I would say arm strenth is #1. It is the tool that will keep you in baseball the longest. Also, a kid with a strong arm will most likely pitch until the other skills improve.
Someone once said that baseball is built on pitching, defense, and offense in that order.
One could make individual arguments for the other tools in picking a kid, but I think in all four cases it would depend on the needs of the team. For example, a guy who hits for power but strikes out a lot might be cut for the guy who hits for average power and superb average. (Who would trade Ichiro for Giambi?)
But arm strenth? Take that guy with the cannon arm every time. We'll work on his defense, and we'll work on his average and power and speed.
Bum, I agree with you.
For many kids, you can only play the game as long as your arm can compete. There just aren't that many DH spots available.
And 25 of the first 48 players drafted in 2005 were pitchers. Teams carry many more pitchers than any other position. Arm brings opportunity.
Mike F
For many kids, you can only play the game as long as your arm can compete. There just aren't that many DH spots available.
And 25 of the first 48 players drafted in 2005 were pitchers. Teams carry many more pitchers than any other position. Arm brings opportunity.
Mike F
Flat out hitting, I guess for average. Power can come around as a player develops. Some hitters will always hit for more power than others. But if a guy can hit, I can find him a place to play.
Call me new-fashioned but my choice is OPS. However, since that is not an option, I'll take high average AND the patience to work 5-6-7 pitches per at bat....
Sorry Haverdad. That is not a tool, but a great quality and ingredient that will show an exceptional ball player. Remember, he has to hit sometimes to get an OPS.
Im not sure how to reply except to say that of course a player must hit to have an OPS%.
quote:Originally posted by Coachric:
But if a guy can hit, I can find him a place to play.
Coachric,
I tend to look at things from a little different perspective...
How many guys can you find a place for that can hit, but can't throw? Maybe a couple, but you will begin pretty quickly to hurt your defense if you carry too many on the roster.
How many guys can you find a place for who can throw but can't hit? As many pitchers as you want to carry.
The arm is taken for granted because, by the time players get to your level, the one's who can't throw are playing s****r.
Mike F
Ps: Sorry about saying s****r.
By can't throw, do you mean can't throw at all. I can put a below average arm at 1b, 2b, Lf depending on the level. Now, no one is suggesting that you want 9 guys who hit well but can't throw at all. You will need throwers for your staff as you suggest. The point being made is that If a kid can hit, a spot will be found for him. It is easier to teach defense than to teach a kid how to be a great hitter. Great hitting is more a natural skill as is speed and throwing strength.
Coachric,
As you have pointed out, one can put average (or below average) arms at 1B, 2B, and LF. That's 3 spots. Teams carry many more pitchers, which in my opinion proves that arm strength trumps hitting (for power). Also, a team can sometimes dominatewith a single power pitcher, but not with a (single) power hitter. I'll just pitch around him.
Of course, we're both right. A team needs bothgood pitching and good hitting. My only point (as I stated above) is the order of importance.. pitching, defense, and offense, in that order.
As you have pointed out, one can put average (or below average) arms at 1B, 2B, and LF. That's 3 spots. Teams carry many more pitchers, which in my opinion proves that arm strength trumps hitting (for power). Also, a team can sometimes dominatewith a single power pitcher, but not with a (single) power hitter. I'll just pitch around him.
Of course, we're both right. A team needs bothgood pitching and good hitting. My only point (as I stated above) is the order of importance.. pitching, defense, and offense, in that order.
P.S., Coachric,
Perhaps that's why the Yankees have struggled (relatively speaking). Lately they've emphsized offense over pitching, and have been frustrated. Someone once said "defense wins championships"..and in baseball, it's the only game I know of where the defense controls the ball (the pitcher)!
Perhaps that's why the Yankees have struggled (relatively speaking). Lately they've emphsized offense over pitching, and have been frustrated. Someone once said "defense wins championships"..and in baseball, it's the only game I know of where the defense controls the ball (the pitcher)!
Here's a quick exercise that I just thought of...see if you agree or not.
There are 2 coaches, me and Bum (who just decided that hitting is the most important tool). There is a large pool of players, each having one great tool and 4 average tools.
We are going to choose sides and play each other in some games.
I pick the best arm, Bum picks the best hitter.
Next, I pick the best arm, Bum picks the best hitter again. We're both happy, because I think the arm is the most important tool and Bum thinks hitting is tops.
When it's done, I've picked the 5 or 6 best arms and he has the 5 or 6 best hitters before we each start going for balance. Besides those 5 or 6, we are now pretty equal.
Who has the advantage when our teams play? I have dominating pitching and Bum has great hitting. I like my chances.
Mike F
Ps: Sorry Bum.
There are 2 coaches, me and Bum (who just decided that hitting is the most important tool). There is a large pool of players, each having one great tool and 4 average tools.
We are going to choose sides and play each other in some games.
I pick the best arm, Bum picks the best hitter.
Next, I pick the best arm, Bum picks the best hitter again. We're both happy, because I think the arm is the most important tool and Bum thinks hitting is tops.
When it's done, I've picked the 5 or 6 best arms and he has the 5 or 6 best hitters before we each start going for balance. Besides those 5 or 6, we are now pretty equal.
Who has the advantage when our teams play? I have dominating pitching and Bum has great hitting. I like my chances.
Mike F
Ps: Sorry Bum.
Mike F,
Good example. I think this discussion is important for more than just rhetorical reasons. Many coaches today emphasize hitting over arm strength, IMO. Kids today just don't throw enough.
Mike F, here's another example. Let's say you need to decide which is more important, hitting or arm-strength, when starting out your young ballplayer. If you emphasize arm mechanics and long-toss, and minimalize the hitting lessons, your kid will be in pretty good shape later, even with the late hitting lessons.
But if you ignore arm mechanics and long-toss and dole out the bucks on hitting lessons, only to find out later your kid's been short-arming the ball for six years and he need Tommy John,
all that hitting money has gone to waste.
The most important tool is arm-strength.
Good example. I think this discussion is important for more than just rhetorical reasons. Many coaches today emphasize hitting over arm strength, IMO. Kids today just don't throw enough.
Mike F, here's another example. Let's say you need to decide which is more important, hitting or arm-strength, when starting out your young ballplayer. If you emphasize arm mechanics and long-toss, and minimalize the hitting lessons, your kid will be in pretty good shape later, even with the late hitting lessons.
But if you ignore arm mechanics and long-toss and dole out the bucks on hitting lessons, only to find out later your kid's been short-arming the ball for six years and he need Tommy John,
all that hitting money has gone to waste.
The most important tool is arm-strength.
Bum
Maybe you should break the poll down in two catagoreis. One for pitchers and then another for postion players.
If you look at just position players, what do you consider the top priority?
Maybe you should break the poll down in two catagoreis. One for pitchers and then another for postion players.
If you look at just position players, what do you consider the top priority?
BUM
When you start your "young player" you dont put emphasis on anything other than the fundamentals-- let it fly--let the kid play the game and have fun--
When you start your "young player" you dont put emphasis on anything other than the fundamentals-- let it fly--let the kid play the game and have fun--
Chill,
IMO, in looking at just position players it would be a close toss-up between defense, speed, or arm strength. For example, good defense is related to arm-strength, but it's also related to speed and quickness to the ball. And speed not only wins games but is a great indicator of a player's athletic potential. Tough one. What do you think?
IMO, in looking at just position players it would be a close toss-up between defense, speed, or arm strength. For example, good defense is related to arm-strength, but it's also related to speed and quickness to the ball. And speed not only wins games but is a great indicator of a player's athletic potential. Tough one. What do you think?
Posistion players. Lets start with ability to field the ball. It doesn't matter how fast you can get to it if you can't field it once you get there. Secondly arm strength and accuracy. You have to be able to get the ball to where your throwing it and it has to be accurate or it doesn't matter. Speed allows you to get to balls that others might not be able to get to.
CF- Ability to field - Speed - Arm - Hit
LF- Ability to field - Hit - Speed - Arm
RF- Ability to field - Hit - Arm - Speed
3b- Ability to field - Hit - Arm - Speed
1b- Ability to field - Hit - Arm - Speed
2b- Ability to field - Speed - Hit - Arm
SS- Ability to field - Speed - Arm - Hit
C- Ability to field - Arm - Hit - Speed
The bottom line is if you can not field the ball you can not play. You have to be able to field it. Then the amount of arm strength you have to have is related to the posistion you play. The amount of speed that is required is related to where you play. I dont care how good a kids arm strength is and how fast he is if he can not catch it what good is it? Thats the first thing that he has to be able to do to play defense. There are posistions where minimal arm strength will be adequate. There are posistions where minimal speed is adequate. There are no posistions where minimal ability to catch the ball and field it are adequate.
CF- Ability to field - Speed - Arm - Hit
LF- Ability to field - Hit - Speed - Arm
RF- Ability to field - Hit - Arm - Speed
3b- Ability to field - Hit - Arm - Speed
1b- Ability to field - Hit - Arm - Speed
2b- Ability to field - Speed - Hit - Arm
SS- Ability to field - Speed - Arm - Hit
C- Ability to field - Arm - Hit - Speed
The bottom line is if you can not field the ball you can not play. You have to be able to field it. Then the amount of arm strength you have to have is related to the posistion you play. The amount of speed that is required is related to where you play. I dont care how good a kids arm strength is and how fast he is if he can not catch it what good is it? Thats the first thing that he has to be able to do to play defense. There are posistions where minimal arm strength will be adequate. There are posistions where minimal speed is adequate. There are no posistions where minimal ability to catch the ball and field it are adequate.
Coach May,
Very convincing argument! I now agree that fielding (or defense) is of primary importance amongst position players. One tweak, though: A First Baseman who hits for power can probably get away with "average" fielding/defense.
Coach May..If we sum up our discussion so far, am I right to say of the 5 tools ARM STRENGTH followed by DEFENSE (OR FIELDING) are the top two in your book?
If you agree, that seems to validate my way of thinking: Pitching, Defense, and Offense, in that order.
Very convincing argument! I now agree that fielding (or defense) is of primary importance amongst position players. One tweak, though: A First Baseman who hits for power can probably get away with "average" fielding/defense.
Coach May..If we sum up our discussion so far, am I right to say of the 5 tools ARM STRENGTH followed by DEFENSE (OR FIELDING) are the top two in your book?
If you agree, that seems to validate my way of thinking: Pitching, Defense, and Offense, in that order.
TRHit,
Agreed! Enjoying the game is most-important. But I think emphasizing arm strength by playing long-toss is perfectly enjoyable and beneficial as well.
Agreed! Enjoying the game is most-important. But I think emphasizing arm strength by playing long-toss is perfectly enjoyable and beneficial as well.
I'll go with hitting for power, even though I prefer hitting with average.
Speed is a great tool, but I played against a player considered by some to be the best base stealer of all time (before Rickey Henderson came along) who never played in the bigs because he couldn't hit.
Arm strength is useful but there are positions a good hitter will play even without arm strength.
The other most important tool is desire. I just saw a friend this weekend for the first time in over 30 years who I had played on the same team with from the time he started playing ball until I finished HS. He was just about the worst player on our team at 13 because he was just starting to play and only had average talent. He loved the game more than anyone else I've ever known and he worked harder than any of the more talented players and made himself into a good hitter and a solid shortstop. By the time he finished HS he was drafted in the 16th round. He went to a JC and was drafted in the 2nd round the next year. He never got further than AAA and spring training with the big club but desire was what got him that far. He's still playing in adult leagues and still loves the game.
Speed is a great tool, but I played against a player considered by some to be the best base stealer of all time (before Rickey Henderson came along) who never played in the bigs because he couldn't hit.
Arm strength is useful but there are positions a good hitter will play even without arm strength.
The other most important tool is desire. I just saw a friend this weekend for the first time in over 30 years who I had played on the same team with from the time he started playing ball until I finished HS. He was just about the worst player on our team at 13 because he was just starting to play and only had average talent. He loved the game more than anyone else I've ever known and he worked harder than any of the more talented players and made himself into a good hitter and a solid shortstop. By the time he finished HS he was drafted in the 16th round. He went to a JC and was drafted in the 2nd round the next year. He never got further than AAA and spring training with the big club but desire was what got him that far. He's still playing in adult leagues and still loves the game.
CADad,
Great story!
Great story!
HaverDad:
I too am "new-fashioned" I guess but if I had to choose a player not based on the five tools but based on his offensive worth to the team, I would choose high OPS. A high percentage [say 1.000+] in that statistic demonstrates both the ability to get on base often [some aspects of batting average Coach Ric but moreso the ability to hit strikes and layoff balls] and the ability to hit extra base hits [which usually includes some combination of the power tool and the speed tool].
Mike F & Bum:
OK. I want in on this draft of these hypothetical teams. I will take two arms in the first two rounds. Then I will draft 3 players for defense alone [Catcher, shortstop & centerfield]. If you Bum are drafting only guys with BA in order of the highest to lowest and you Mike F are drafting only arms in order of the most speed to the least with accuracy thrown into the equation, there will still be plenty of high OPS guys that will remain after five rounds because, IMHO it is the most under appreciated skill [notice I did not say tool] in the game. Lets play ball.
I too am "new-fashioned" I guess but if I had to choose a player not based on the five tools but based on his offensive worth to the team, I would choose high OPS. A high percentage [say 1.000+] in that statistic demonstrates both the ability to get on base often [some aspects of batting average Coach Ric but moreso the ability to hit strikes and layoff balls] and the ability to hit extra base hits [which usually includes some combination of the power tool and the speed tool].
Mike F & Bum:
OK. I want in on this draft of these hypothetical teams. I will take two arms in the first two rounds. Then I will draft 3 players for defense alone [Catcher, shortstop & centerfield]. If you Bum are drafting only guys with BA in order of the highest to lowest and you Mike F are drafting only arms in order of the most speed to the least with accuracy thrown into the equation, there will still be plenty of high OPS guys that will remain after five rounds because, IMHO it is the most under appreciated skill [notice I did not say tool] in the game. Lets play ball.
TW344,
With all due respect, OPS is not a skill, either. It is merely a statistic. Statistics measure skills.
I have an MBA, and believe me, MBA's know how to lie with statistics. (You'll be glad to know I saved myself and got out of the "suit" business and now own a health club.)
There is no doubt of what your saying..high OPS guys get the job done. But high OPS over what period of time? Earlier or later in the year? Against which teams? Which pitchers, RHP or LHP? What level? Weather conditions? Monday or Friday? Did his girlfriend fight with him last night? Etc. My guess is a high OPS guy one year--or one series-- may be not be the next. This is usually not the case when we're talking about baseball tools.
With all due respect, OPS is not a skill, either. It is merely a statistic. Statistics measure skills.
I have an MBA, and believe me, MBA's know how to lie with statistics. (You'll be glad to know I saved myself and got out of the "suit" business and now own a health club.)
There is no doubt of what your saying..high OPS guys get the job done. But high OPS over what period of time? Earlier or later in the year? Against which teams? Which pitchers, RHP or LHP? What level? Weather conditions? Monday or Friday? Did his girlfriend fight with him last night? Etc. My guess is a high OPS guy one year--or one series-- may be not be the next. This is usually not the case when we're talking about baseball tools.
Most organizations have "preferred tools" for each position on the field.
For Example:
1B: Power, Hit, Field, Arm, Run
2B: Hit, Field, Run, Power, Arm
SS: Field, Hit, Arm, Power, Run
3B: Power, Hit, Arm, Field, Run
LF: Hit, Power, Run, Field, Arm
RF: Power, Hit, Arm, Field, Run
CF: Hit, Field, Run, Arm, Power
C: Field, Arm, Hit, Power, Run
Each club has one of the "profiles" and it differs based on organizational philosophy...I doubt the A's ever rank speed as a priority.
For what it's worth...
For Example:
1B: Power, Hit, Field, Arm, Run
2B: Hit, Field, Run, Power, Arm
SS: Field, Hit, Arm, Power, Run
3B: Power, Hit, Arm, Field, Run
LF: Hit, Power, Run, Field, Arm
RF: Power, Hit, Arm, Field, Run
CF: Hit, Field, Run, Arm, Power
C: Field, Arm, Hit, Power, Run
Each club has one of the "profiles" and it differs based on organizational philosophy...I doubt the A's ever rank speed as a priority.
For what it's worth...