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baseballclearinghouse.net 2010 Top Virginia Pitchers

Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
quote:
Never seen someone trying to do something positive get beat up for helping to get kids noticed.


Seriously, it's your first time? Smile

Consider what Mr. McKinney said. Lots of HS pitchers will succeed in HS but will not do so well at the next level, if they even get the chance. Anyone who has followed kids aging up knows this to be the case; if you've lived through it, you could name a dozen or more kids who prove the rule.

But if it were your son who fit that profile, it would not be welcome news to you. And we see this sort of rude awakening happen every year, as every new group of players and parents run smack dab into this reality.

See also, "But can he pitch?" Which is the constant whine of the junk baller's dad when he gets upset that a high MPH guy with a higher ERA is getting looks while his kid gets overlooked. Kind of like complaining that the NBA only wants tall guys.
Last edited by Midlo Dad
WR WB Reporter1,000+ posts
Midlo Dad, I think you are missing a connection and that is, I think, that J did not address his comments to the person to whom he meant to address them. I believe that Janderson works with Bobby McKinney and was not intending to address his comments to Bobby McKinney but may have been intending to address his comments to another poster, with some sarcasim.

I am sure that someone will correct me if I am wrong.
Y 1943 yankees100+ posts
Bobby,

I am amazed that you got sucked into that!! You posted your list, you explained the issues now there is just one thing left for you to do.

Let these guys know when the next event is, that way they can sign up and see where they compare on your list.

see you at the field,

Lynn

Billy, maybe he can hook you up with the phone #'s of the guys on the list!!!!!

LET THE GAMES BEGIN!!!!
B baseballfan1000110+ posts
Wow. This topic is beginning to get ridiculous.
These rankings are meaninless. This isn't the BCS, the top 2 pitchers do not get an award, or anything at all for that matter. who cares?

You people are sounding less and less respectable after each post.

for example:
redbird.... you're basically saying Singleton deserves to be ranked higher than Ali because he throws a few MPH harder?

hmm.. that makes alot of sense
B baseballfan1000110+ posts
It really is that hard to understand, because its dumb logic. I know handfuls of kids who can throw the ball 88 mph but cant pitch to save their lives.
It's not a radar gun competition.

Hmm.. maybe there is an MLB message board ranking like this where you can try to convince someone that, i'll use an example of former teammates, John Rocker should be ranked above Greg Maddux.
U 3up-3down500+ posts
YES REDBIRD.....effortless.. it was also far too effortless for you to bring down another young man in promoting Singleton.

It is really hard to understand, understand how a coach of a reputable organization designed to promote youths is doing this.

I shouldn't have to say this; but ask yourself this question.....How would you feel if your son was involved in this post??
N NHSVikingDad10+ posts
3up & DC The long and short is our boys are playing D-1 Baseball at very good schools. The have a national championship ring and most of all they are great kids. Rankings are something to talk about. lol Bob is a good guy and good for Va baseball. He has always been helpful to me when I have asked. See you guys soon! ps still pushing snow up here! lol
WR WB Reporter1,000+ posts
Once again, I may be getting lost in to whom posters are addressing their remarks.

3 UP 3 Down said "YES REDBIRD.....effortless.. it was also far too effortless for you to bring down another young man in promoting Singleton." If that is bringing another young man down to promote Singleton, did not Smith Baseball start the process by bringing Singleton down to promote Ali in the first posting on the second page of this thread?


And then DC Heat says "He is a self promoter only interested in talking about his teams players." DC Heat, are you referring to Redbird or Smith Baseball? In the context, it appears Redbird but given that Singleton is at Granby and Redbird's son is with the Virgina Beach District and that Singleton is not with the Canes, which of Redbird's team's players is he promoting when he expresses an opinion about Singleton, a player he has obviously seen because Redbird lives in Tidewater? (I also suspect that he has seen Ali plenty because his son was with the SED last year.) Are you referring to Smith Baseball's promotion of Ali because Ali was one of his players last year?
Last edited by WB Reporter
I IR1210+ posts
I've know Bobby for many years and I believe he is good for baseball in the HR area. Can't help but be subjective in rankings because it is really difficult to measure the intangables....as Bobby said, it is an honor to be in the top 40 in the state of Virginia!!! I think Dean is satisfied with:
2009 - All State 2nd Team Utility, Commonwealth Games Gold Medal (pitched cg championship win), AAA Eastern Region 1st Team Utility, All Tidewater 1st Team, Southeastern District Player of the Year, Southeastern District 1st Team Pitcher, Southeastern District 1st Team Utility, Southeast District Regular Season Champions, IRHS Varsity MVP and yes DCHEAT those of us at Harbor Park Indian River Game saw his FB 86-88. Many people are under the impression his FB is slow but, Dean does not "groove" one speed, he changes his speeds on his fastballs (which is partially why he can go cg). Those are the facts and whether someone thinks he's better than someone else in the state really doesn't matter. But, thanks for the opportunity to prop my son (did I mention he's uncommitted with a 4.02GPA :-)
J JMO10+ posts
There would be less controversy if the list were named "BCH's top Virginia pitchers who have paid me $129.00"

- and janderson - thanks for your resume as well. I don't claim to know every pitcher in the state - as I said. I do, however, think it rediculous that you list kids on there that will never be any more than mid level DIII players while leaving off 2 kids that have signed DI deals and started in the Commonwealth games and area code trials too boot (Morrison and Cullen).

Redbird - as for the showcase rout - Cullen was on the Braves - problem apparently is that he didn't stroke a check to the list makers.

Funnny that these both are listed on your website database - are you counting their scholarships in your obscenely misleading claim of "$2 million" in scholarships?

That's my favorite marketing tool of these guys - they might have had a kid like that at one of their events and then claim they had something to do with them getting their scholarship.

It's overstating at the least and completely misleading and manipulative at it's worst.
B Black-Hawks0810+ posts
This thread has just gone too far south. It started with a guy from the baseball industry posting a list of 39 top pitchers from the class of 2010. Anybody helping players with exposure can only be a good thing.

I guess what bothers me about this thread is the negative posts directed at the players on the list. How much of these negative posts are driven by a bruised ego?

I don't know everyone on the list. I know alot of them. I am sure they are all deserving and should be proud.

Are there players missing? Certainly. I know of a couple who merit inclusion.

To make comments like "this guy would never see the mound at our school", or "never be anymore than mid-level DIII players" is sad.

Thousands of young men and boys play this game. Very few play after high school and even fewer after college. Lets stick to the traditions of this board and pay homage to the guys who succeed regardless of the level. It's a kids game, played by kids. After high school, to continue playing is a fine achievement that anyone can be proud of.

An earlier poster said it best. How would you feel if it were your son?

Cheer, promote, hype, experience joy and success. But let's not be negative and rag on young men who are working hard to achieve a dream or goal. Just my opinion.
B Bucktail8810+ posts
Black-Hawk - Great Post.
At this point I doubt that we will see a 2011 or 2012 list pop up on this page anytime soon or a whole new pile of **** will start flowing down into the giant Septic Tank that has been created by the negative posts over the last two days.
Bobby - The list is greatly appreciated by myself. I have no dog in the 2010 fight but I am always interested to see how the different showcase and scouting groups view the talent. Thanks for the hard work that you all have done.
NW no way100+ posts
Im with you Saipan, he is also a very nice young man and wish my son had a 4.02 GPA !!!!

quote:
Originally posted by saipanwarrior:
IR12,

You do not need to prop your son here in the Tidewater Area.....everyone that has watched baseball over the past two years knows he is in the top 5 of Hampton Roads players, without a doubt. His accomplishments speak for themselves.

Good Luck on the upcoming season and his future playing college baseball.
D DCHEAT10+ posts
WB My comment was to 3up. Hank knows who and what I i'm talking about. Redbird is a big boy he can defend himself. But to set the record straight he said Dean is not at a certain velocity and he is wrong with that statement. I have seen Dean play a few games myself uh maybe 9 years worth. Posters should stick to what they know are facts, that would prevent alot of controversy.

Yes NHS Viking, 3up and Ace 45 I am glad that all our boy's reached their goals and can't wait to see them all play at the next level and instate how lucky were we? lol
NW no way100+ posts
Serve up the fastballs , most upper classmen can send them out of the park. Takes more than a fastball these days to be a top pitcher. If you dont have 3 or more GOOD pitches(curve,changeup,slider) then the 88 mph fastball gets you know where......

quote:
Originally posted by redbird5:
@smith...Singleton is 87-89 on the hill NOW. Ali is not. I would think the ranking is justified.

@JMO...you just made a VERY compelling argument for playing with a quality showcase team. Wink
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
I'm constantly amazed at how many people are willing to say that. It is, of course, completely wrong.

Sure, guys who throw harder give up hits, too. But they generally give up fewer of them. The harder you throw, the larger your margin for error. The faster your fastball, the more effective your off-speed pitches can be, even if they might not be "plus" pitches in their own right.

Even Nolan Ryan gave up hits in high school. Just, not as many of them.

I wish people who say this junk could hear themselves and realize that they just sound like a sour grapes parent. I don't believe for a minute they wouldn't be crowing all over about how their son hit 90 on the gun, if in fact he could only do it. Not to mention all the folks who crow about it when it ain't even so.

The whole reason this came up is because Bobby pointed out that his list was based on college and pro potential. That's because at higher levels, teams will take a kid with high MPH and try to hone his pitching skills, knowing full well he might never have had a knowledgeable pitching coach in his whole life up until then. But a kid throwing 82 and hitting spots, he's already at his ceiling in terms of pitchability. Unless he's physically "projectable" (a whole other subject), he's destined to get knocked around facing a lineup of nothing but top level hitters.

This is why pro scouts do what they do. And while I don't always agree with everything a scout does or doesn't do, says or doesn't say, when something goes on for decades across all 30 MLB organizations, if you as a HS parent are telling yourself you know pitching better than they do, you are delusional.

I'm not saying that in any given game you want to start the kid who throws the hardest. If one kid throws straight-as-string fastballs over the heart of the plate at 86 and another uses movement, mixes his pitches, hits his spots and tops out at 80, the latter kid is probably going to be your best bet -- today.

But not down the road, which is what Bobby was talking about.

And everything has limits. If you start comparing 80 mph guys to 95 mph guys, you really start to embarrass yourself if you try to suggest you're better off with the 80 guy out there unless the 95 guy just cannot throw any kind of a strike. There comes a tipping point where you have enough speed that even a straight fastball over the middle of the plate cannot be handled by a teenager, or at least, not for more than a blooper here and a bleeder there over the course of a game.

The other aspect of the sour grapes rant is the fallacy that guys throwing hard have no skills, no movement, no quality off-speed pitches. Usually they do indeed.

I do think there is something in the water fountain at baseball fields that leads people to fall into this baloney. No one would ever suggest that a 6'2" HS power forward with mad skills is an NBA prospect. No one would ever suggest that the 5'10", 200 lbs. HS nose tackle will some day play for Penn State or in the NFL. For some reason, baseball produces a never ending stream of people who want to argue against things that are clearly facts. I wonder why that is.
Last edited by Midlo Dad
V vabaseballfan100+ posts
Lots of good points in Midlo's post.

I'd simply add one large caveat that applies to lefties. If a LHP is 84-85 in high school but pitches with movement, has good breaking stuff, and is smart, he's definitely got a shot to be a good college pitcher. Even at the highest levels.

There are tons of examples of these types of guys performing very well in the big stage in college.......but but only lefties (or submariners). Soft lefties are always a favorite of many of the big time West Coast programs as well. I'd definitely agree with Midlo's overall point and would apply it to LHPs also.....A LHP throwing 90 has a much better chance to succeed beyond high school than one throwing 83, but there are enough examples of guys who've been successful for it not to be a total pipe dream.

Not really a disagreement with Midlo at all......just kind of a side note opinion.
Last edited by vabaseballfan
EH Emanski's Heroes1,000+ posts
I completely agree with Midlo, but he'll probably get blasted on this board because he spoke the truth. Pro scouts talk about OFP...overall future potential. The key part is "future potential"...what a guy could be in the future. Bigger kids, better arms, etc are generally going to represent a higher ceiling and a potentially better player in the future. A guy can be a better pitcher now, but not have the best long term potential. Does it always work out that way? Of course not...that guy with "potential" could be as good today as he'll ever be. But IF both players reach their full potential, then the guy with the higher ceiling will obviously be the better player.
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
Because lefties come at batters from an angle they see less frequently, the mind adjusts to the pitch just a hair slower. This is why lefties can throw 3-4 mph slower than righties and still be on par, and why 90+ lefties are almost never passed over in the draft.

There is always a role for the guy who throws with a funky motion, a low angle, or with high quality off-speed stuff. It is often, however, a role to get one batter (e.g., lefty on lefty) or to go maybe one inning. Seldom do you see a team expose a pitcher like that to a second turn through the order. It's subject to the rule of "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me." Second time through you see batters adjust their approaches and it can get ugly.
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
What bugs me most about the "but can he pitch?" whine is this.

Your son hears you say this stuff. And he might even come to believe it if you're not careful.

I see kids all the time who are not even close to maxing out their physical potential to generate velocity. And if they're getting out HS batters, they think that's indication that they are good enough.

The HS ranks are loaded with RHP's throwing 80-84, and it's hard for a recruiter to tell them apart. Get yourself bumped up to 87-88, though, and now you'll stand out and turn heads.

You might think every kid wants to throw as hard as he can, but you would be wrong. Lots of kids, especially young kids, are headstrong in the sense that they want to do things exactly the way that THEY want to do them, and they are resistant to change. That in itself is an obstacle to their advancement. But if you add to that the verbal reinforcement that there is no real need to change, you're just fueling the problem. The problem being, you're going to get to the end of HS with no suitors and your dreams might not come to fruition.

And then you can moan about how the world is unfair because no one appreciates a true pitcher, all they care about is the RADAR gun, etc. But why end up bitter when you could instead recognize where there is a need to improve to advance, and devote yourself to addressing the area where improvement is needed?

When I work with young kids, I find that they are all just dying to throw off-speed stuff (especially curves but sometimes things like knucklers) because it makes batters look foolish. And I tell them, the most important thing you can do is to develop your fastball. The other stuff can wait. Build power, throw with confidence, learn movement and develop command. Nothing in pitching works until you can put a quality fastball where you want to put it.

Someone mentioned Greg Maddux above. Two things often forgotten about him are:

(1) He was 90-94 out of HS, and when he learned to "dial it down" after a year or so with the Cubs, to work on movement and spot control, he meant that he would throw in "only" the 91-92 range. He lost speed as he grew older, and it is a tribute to him that he was skilled enough to get batters out even as his velocity faded. But when he fell to 87, and then to 85, you didn't see him going through the order more than twice. And he's the master of the art. How many of our sons are on par with him? Truly, none.

(2) Maddux was also recognized early in large part because his older brother was already a proven pro pitcher. That gave scouts confidence in his genetic predisposition to continue developing. Not many of our sons will have this going for them.

In his prime, Maddux seldom threw a breaking ball. He used his fastball to set up his change-up, then used the cutting or tailing fastball to nip a corner. In other words, Maddux actually proves the rule:

The fastball is the most important pitch in baseball. Always has been, always will be.
Last edited by Midlo Dad
WR WB Reporter1,000+ posts
DC HEAT,
quote:
Originally posted by DCHEAT:
WB My comment was to 3up. Hank knows who and what I i'm talking about.
If your comment was for Hank only, in a public forum, isn't that what a private message is for?

As for your claim that Redbird can defend himself, in my posting I asked a simple question of your buddy Hank, for whom you seem to be responding. He accused Redbird of bringing Ali down to advance Singleton. I don't care whether it was Redbird or anyone else. I don't care who the two players are. I was interested in why the double standard. I asked WHY he considered the second poster (which was Redbird) to be effortlessly bringing down a player (Ali) to advance another (Singleton) when it was Smith Baseball, the FIRST poster who brought up that subject of comparing A and B to advance A in a long diatribe? Why didn't Hank jump on Smith Baseball? Seems to me that he effortlessly applied a double standard but it does not surprise me on this board that anyone does.
Last edited by WB Reporter
redbird5redbird510,000+ posts
Wow...I sure hope the season gets here soon. In response to my new friends...


quote:
Originally posted by baseballfan10001:
It really is that hard to understand, because its dumb logic. I know handfuls of kids who can throw the ball 88 mph but cant pitch to save their lives.
It's not a radar gun competition.

Hmm.. maybe there is an MLB message board ranking like this where you can try to convince someone that, i'll use an example of former teammates, John Rocker should be ranked above Greg Maddux.


Handfuls of kids who throw 88?!? Please show them to me...I'd love to see them.

I don't understand why people think a kid who throws hard can't pitch. I guess it's their way of rationalizing. Midlo addressed this very well. I'm not going to re-hash it.


quote:
Originally posted by 3up-3down:
YES REDBIRD.....effortless.. it was also far too effortless for you to bring down another young man in promoting Singleton.

It is really hard to understand, understand how a coach of a reputable organization designed to promote youths is doing this.

I shouldn't have to say this; but ask yourself this question.....How would you feel if your son was involved in this post??


Please, for the love of God, show me where I put anyone down?!? I simply said I like Singleton's tools more than Ali's. If you'd like the full report on both, I would be happy to give it to you. The irony of this entire post is that my response was to Ali's former coach putting down Singleton...and I get jumped on?!? That makes sense.

Many times, you have referenced he was 86-88 at Harbor Park. That is great BUT he is not consistently there. In the times I saw him last year, he wasn't close to that velocity.

In phone calls to college coaches, I have recommended plenty of players that don't play in our organization, including Ali.

Finally..How would I feel if my son was mentioned like the above? I'd be fine with it because there is nothing derogatory or misrepresentative. My son can hold his own and, honestly, I really don't care what a couple of dads think about my him. He is getting great interest from colleges. Thanks for your concern, though.

And, let's be real about this...the debate is over someone ranked 15 and someone ranked 18. Get real!

quote:
Originally posted by DCHEAT:
Hank why waste your breath with that guy? He is a self promoter only interested in talking about his teams players. He could care less who's feelings he hurts. I seen Dean throw 86-88 at Harbor Park last Spring so his credibility is questionable.


If this is in reference to me, you are sorely mistaken. I don't need to promote myself or my team. I have NEVER put down a kid on this site or to a coach and I sure as h3ll have no intent to hurt a kid's feelings.

What does watching him for 9 years have to do with anything?!? Except showing no impartiality?

Both players have bright futures ahead of them. Move on.

quote:
Originally posted by no way:
Serve up the fastballs , most upper classmen can send them out of the park. Takes more than a fastball these days to be a top pitcher. If you dont have 3 or more GOOD pitches(curve,changeup,slider) then the 88 mph fastball gets you know where......


1) Who said the kid only has a straight FB?!?

2) Very few upperclassmen in HS can hit the ball out of the yard, much less an 85+ FB. Let's be realistic about this.

3) Most MLB pitchers don't have 3 good pitches, how in the the world could you expect a HS pitcher to have 3?!? 95% are lucky to throw 2 pitches for strikes
Last edited by redbird5
D DCHEAT10+ posts
Rob you are no friend of mine. You said Ali does not throw 87-89 WRONG! You are the same guy that said Cox and Ellis have never showed the arm strength to throw 90 WRONG! Give me a break you are not all knowing although you act like you are. You Move on and talk about things you have SEEN and not heard from some so called pro scouts.
redbird5redbird510,000+ posts
Mr. Cox, everything I have spoken about is based on my observations. Just because someone touches a certain velocity, does not mean they throw that velocity. For example, Nick Thompson has touched 91 but he doesn't throw 91. And, yes...I know we aren't friends. I have plenty sand not looking for more.

You can call me anytime to discuss anything on here. I'm done with you.

Best of luck to Cody for a successful season.
Last edited by redbird5
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