Bat speed vs distance ball is hit

Doing a little "googling" on the subject here is a source that says it is 86-87MPH.

http://news-info.wustl.edu/news/page/normal/7535.html

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Why Albert Isn't Himself in Home Run Derbies


Many people have wondered why Albert Pujols has fared so (relatively) poorly in the home run derbies he has participated in and why he doesn't hit as many towering batting practice home runs as some power hitters. I would argue that this is directly related to why Albert Pujols is such a great hitter, and in particular to why he can hit for both power and average.


To understand why this is, you have to understand that there are two ways to hit a ball a long way.


Type I power hitters swing as hard as possible, pray that they hit the ball square enough, and pray that the ball carries enough to clear the fence. You see this approach in most high-power slow pitch softball swings and some major league baseball swings. It makes sense that most high-power slow pitch softball power hitters are Type I power hitters because the ball isn't coming in very hard. As a result, what they have to do is generate energy in the bat (in the form of high batspeed) and using it to propel the ball a long way. That isn't an issue for them because they don't have to protect against the change-up. Type I baseball players get away with this approach because, while it will tend to hurt their ability to hit for average, it will also mean that they will absolutely crush the ball if they square it up (and still hit the ball hard and/or a long way even if they miss it by just a bit).


Type II power hitters swing a little slower but try to hit the ball more squarely more often (which enables them to hit for both power and average).

What you are doing in this case is taking the energy that is in the ball and, to a large degree, just redirecting it in the opposite direction.

Three things make it clear that Albert Pujols is a Type II power hitter. First, Albert Pujols' bat speed is only 87 MPH, rather than the 100+ MPH numbers that you see in some Type I power hitters (e.g. Prince Fielder and Bryce Harper). Second, Albert Pujols is a fastball hitter; which makes sense because it gives him more initial energy to start with. When Albert Pujols is hitting a batting practice fastball (which is also the type of pitch that you get in a home run derby), the ball is coming in slower and, as a result, doesn't have as much energy. As a result, while Albert will tend to hit the ball hard, it won't go as far as it would have if it were a fastball.

I would argue that that is why many of Albert's home run's during the 2009 ASG HRD only just made it over the wall. The third and final piece of evidence that Albert Pujols is a Type II power hitter is that fact that he tried to modify his swing during the home run derby before the 2009 All Star Game. Basically, what he was trying to do, by experimenting with a larger leg kick and such, was incorporate more Type I aspects into his swing. However, it yielded only mediocre results (and may have knocked him into a small slump) because he couldn't overcome his muscle memory and its Type II orientation.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/pro...lsSwingAnalysis.html

Guys. We're confusing bat speed and ball speed (exit speed).

Not at all I very specifically said that Puljos bat speed has been measured at 86MPH and ball speed is 105 MPH for a ball to travel 400ft.

What I would like to know from some of the hitting experts is. a) Is this factual? b) If so how do you reconcile his success with a slower bat speed.

Showme's stuff seems like a bunch of conjecture, particularly when he starts to reference a motivational speakers web site.

Anyone?

I couldn't vouch for the speeds, but the difference would be in proper weight shift.

There are many other variables such as pitch speed, pitch location and trajectory.

We have to be wary of many of the scientific studies of distance hitting. Adair for example set out to prove that a batted ball could not travel further than 500 feet, rather than examining the length that batted balls were actually hit.

BOF nice trashing. Wash u grads probably not to used to this. Multiple skills not allowed, aye. I still have hope for your singular talent. :]

Bat speed by it self is nothing.

I think he is spot on Type 1 and Type 2 power hitters.


http://www.sie.arizona.edu/sys...rs/GhistaChapt16.pdf

showme: Sorry, but check the ego at the door in the hitting forum, it gets rather rough in here some times.

Sorry but much of what Chris writes about Puljos is complete conjecture IMO, not to trash you per se but you posted it. To put Bryce Harper in the same sentence as Puljos is even more crazy, comparing a HS kid with one of the best MLB hitters in our generation, (probably any) shows a lack of perspective. I get the point on the types of power hitters. Thanks for the reference I will read it when I have some time.

What I am trying to understand is why Puljos does what he does so well if he indeed has a slower bat speed. The one article points to his vision, so I get that he can see better than others, and wait longer, I don't buy for one second that he is only a FB hitter.

There are some guys here who have studied him a lot so I am curious what they think.

We musn't forget that there are two considerations in the "Power" formula, not just bat speed.

I.E., power = Mass x Speed(2)....

A larger player swinging a bigger bat, adds to the Mass side thus can, to some degree, have a slower bat speed and hit the ball as far as a lighter player (less mass) with greater bat speed. Clearly, Albert fits into that category. In fighting, and striking in general, bigger men are generally "slower" but at contact, can deliver a big wallup! However, a lighter, faster fighter can deliver and equally devasting punch/kick. The equation tells you that of the two, speed is by far the biggest factor.

Concerning Albert Pujols: I think there is secondary vibration on the baseball bat when you hit the ball. I think that some of your larger players get less bat vibration than players with less hand and forearm mass.

The bat vibration in the hands has to lead to power loss. I think the vibration is nearly imperceptible to a hitter.

Pujols also makes very good contact and reads the ball well. He also happens to be a very smart hitter. So I imagine these combinations make him a great hitter.

Leverage, that's a curious statement. You may be right but this is a new premise for me. For sure, the further from the "sweetspot" that you contact the baseball, the more vibration you create. You do very much so, feel vibration!

I'm not sure that vibration is player size selective.

AP get's it done, somehow. Maybe it cannot be defined. Therefore, we may never be able to teach it. Maybe that intangible is given talent...

As far as P = M x S(2), I believe there is truth to Leverage's ideas about players with greater strength in the hands and forarms, (regardless of player's size) but I think its more about how that strength helps control mass/speed(2) as the bat itself becomes a seperate rotational (orbital) mass during hitting.

Like I said, good stuff! GED10DaD

Also look at the powerline...the line from the front foot up through the now forward rear shoulder. Is it balance and in a strong power position? If so then when the bat speed meets the object ball it will jump off the bat because of the strong and firm body holding the bat, powering through.

If you have great bat speed without a firm foundation to definatively redirect the energy from the ball you will get leakage of power and less distance. At least thats how I understand it!

quote:

As far as P = M x S(2), I believe there is truth to Leverage's ideas about players with greater strength in the hands and forarms, (regardless of player's size) but I think its more about how that strength helps control mass/speed(2) as the bat itself becomes a seperate rotational (orbital) mass during hitting.

GunE ... the rational part of my "pea brain" gets that point. On my other "irrational side," there are those Science types, using slowed down high speed film, showing the palm-up, palm-down point of impact with the arms bent. Morever, they will tell you that ball only impacts the bat for milliseconds and before the forearms flex at follow-thru ...... long after impact and launch.

Go figure...

floridafan-You have hit on a key point and it is power leakage and I think it comes from the hands and forearms. My reasoning is the hitter would have never attained the batspeed to begin with if they had power leakage from the ground through the shoulders.

Batspeed is interesting but early batspeed ie when that max speed is obtained in the swing is important.

I watched Pujols take BP this summer and what really catches your attention is his consistency. He hits the ball well nearly every swing in BP. He also gets a lot of backspin on the ball. The ball really carries.

Another thing regarding hitting is hand mass. Heavy hands swinging a bat at 86 produce quite a bit more power than lighter hands swinging the same bat at 86.

Pujols probably has good hand mass. A lot of these guys doing hand strengthening exercises really are creating mass. Now for a pitcher creating hand mass it puts more stress on the shoulder and elbow.

The strength in the hands, forearms and wrists, together also provide a "solid mass" holding a solid bat that does not give way when contact is made.

Read the CoR part.

Babe Ruth's batspeed measured at 75 mph.

Pujols simply hits the fastest pitches, and spinning curves with the core spot of the bat with 86 mph swings with perfect timing. It's a simple thing.

I was the guy who posted the info about Pujols bat speed in the initial thread.
I believe Josh Hamilton had the highest ever measured?

What no one has mentioned yet is swing plane!

The article I quoted from stated that Pujols' bat stayed on plane or "in the Zone" longer than almost anyone else.
He gets the sweet spot of the bat on the ball and squares it up on the right plane!

I'm not sure if it's Mass, or density, or what?

But the sound when he hits the ball is unlike anything I've ever heard!

Regarding distance, the reason the ball goes farther with an aluminum bat is certainly because they are lighter and create more bat speed, and because of the "trampoline effect", but it is also because the sweet spot is so much larger than on a wooden bat!

Same with big-headed drivers in golf!

What is the exit speed for Pujols? I missed it.

Here's the original thread:

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...671040313#7671040313

Pujols batted ball exit speed was once measured at 120 mph.

I'll try to reference the original article.
Can't find it right now?

quote:

Originally posted by gitnby:
Here's the original thread:

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...671040313#7671040313

Pujols batted ball exit speed was once measured at 120 mph.

I'll try to reference the original article.
Can't find it right now?

ummm... I thought people here were saying his "bat speed" is slow. 120 mph exit speed doesn't sound slow to me. I'm confused here.

The hardest hit balls stay in the park...

miss hits, leave the park...

http://www.viddler.com/explore/perryhusband/videos/33

Definitions of words are all relative.....

In effect, saying homeruns are miss hit is baloney.....I suppose that's what I'm saying....

BlueDog:

The point is not whether they are miss hits or not but how come Puljos generates so much power with an apparently slower bat speed? I find this interesting since there has historically been so much talk about developing bat speed for power, but by doing this are coaches missing out on something else they should be focusing on?

and then you get to Ruth's 75mph swing...540z bat though.


It gets back to type 1 and type 2 power hitters.

Some swing slow but have ability to match the plane of the pitch for 5 feet, ie perfect timing on the j spot of the bat.

Some are just huge swing little bats high swing speeds and settle for contact, it is gone.

In this clip of Ruth what stands out is the sound when he hits it.


http://www.thoughtequity.com/video/clip/331745_019.do

Mass is still part of the equation. Isn't it? Mass of the bat or even mass of the player???

Certainly, but mass is generally a linear function while velocity is a squared function. (as far as energy goes) I would think that mass of the batter, although important as far as getting a bat moving would be insignificant....don't get me wrong bigger guys hit harder.

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Originally posted by showme:
and then you get to Ruth's 75mph swing...540z bat though.

I swing that big 54 lumber for one BP at yankee Stadium and people can't let go.

I used a 42 oz bat in games - when I was alive.

momentum = mass * velocity. The exit speed of the ball is a function of momentum transfer from the bat to the ball. The exit speed is roughly linear with the bat speed and the bat mass and is affected by the coefficient of restitution of the ball and bat, which is why Maple hits the ball further.

The mass of the player contributes to bat speed but doesn't significantly contribute to the momentum transfer to the ball.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
Not at all I very specifically said that Puljos bat speed has been measured at 86MPH and ball speed is 105 MPH for a ball to travel 400ft.

What I would like to know from some of the hitting experts is. a) Is this factual? b) If so how do you reconcile his success with a slower bat speed.

Showme's stuff seems like a bunch of conjecture, particularly when he starts to reference a motivational speakers web site.

Anyone?

In our bat speed/ball exit speed testing, we had a pro player at 84 bat speed and 96 ball exit speed. This is on a ball traveling less than 30 MPH. Personally, I am at 86/93. My business parter is 84/95. Our highest high school player is 92/95. We also had a player from Boston College who was 91/90. This speaks to efficiency, swing direction, and WHEN maximum bat speed is happening.

The biggest gains are realized from improved mechanics.

Also, bat speed cannot be confused with momentum. Harper has bat speed, but he also seems to generate a great deal of momentum. I've read a lot lately about him getting on his front foot in games - even in BP. He's a huge talent... needs to harness it a bit. I've never seen him hit live - only highlight stuff on youtube - but that is definitely what I see. Good pitching disables momentum.

Thanks Bobby your data is exactly what I was looking for. So although bat speed is important, swing plane, contact point on the bat is just as, or maybe more important that raw bat speed. So Puljos and some other pro's you measured are much more effective on hitting the ball on the CoP of the bat more consistently and without imparting direct forces on the ball instead of side spin, or off center hits that generate bat vibrations, which take away from the energy imparted on the ball.

So in summary bat speed is important, but effeciency and swing plane are just as, or probably more important than pure bat velocity in driving the ball.

I have data on a whole lot of hitters. Most high school players have a ratio close to 1:1 (bat speed of 77, ball exit speed of 78).

The website Hit Tracker Online shows the ball exit speeds and is interesting to look at. The home runs are also linked up to the video which is also great to watch. (You can also snag the video to study the swings if you have screen capturing software!)

The law of conservation of momentum tells us that you can't just lose momentum - it has to go somewhere. If a thing gets bigger, like a snowball rolling down a hill, then it gains more momentum. If a thing gets smaller (so it has less mass), then it has to spin faster, so that it has the same total momentum.

Torque needs to be part of this.

The elite hitters shake the ground in there swings.

Violent collisions are produced, from forces starting with there feet and how hard they put force against the ground. Separation from the lower half and the upper... and the transfer of energy created, to the point of contact.

It's an Art.

And if done correctly you exit speed is much higher than swing speed.

quote:

Originally posted by showme:
The law of conservation of momentum tells us that you can't just lose momentum - it has to go somewhere. If a thing gets bigger, like a snowball rolling down a hill, then it gains more momentum. If a thing gets smaller (so it has less mass), then it has to spin faster, so that it has the same total momentum.

Torque needs to be part of this.

The elite hitters shake the ground in there swings.

Violent collisions are produced, from forces starting with there feet and how hard they put force against the ground. Separation from the lower half and the upper... and the transfer of energy created, to the point of contact.

It's an Art.

And if done correctly you exit speed is much higher than swing speed.

Like I said, Harper needs to harness it and (hopefully for him) be consistent against the best pitchers in the world. The momentum needs to find a way into the barrel, not over the front side.

Very cool looking site. Just bookmarked it, will take a look later. I will see if my software can capture it. Off hand do you know what format the video is in?

I never really tracked this much but if I recall correctly I think I saw a number of exit speed balls in the 85 to maybe 90 range from HS games when I am logging pitchers.

I will send you a PM on something else.

Harper in this utube exit speed 107...

he doing lots right. :] He hitting what, balls going 50 MPH? If he can hit the 90mph stuff.... exit speeds 120...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQQ5cZD8PgU

quote:

Originally posted by showme:
Harper in this utube exit speed 107...

he doing lots right. :] He hitting what, balls going 50 MPH? If he can hit the 90mph stuff.... exit speeds 120...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQQ5cZD8PgU

The question is not whether he can hit a ball at 50mph or 100mph. The question is whether he can hit a 80mph change-up behind a 90+ fastball.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
momentum = mass * velocity. The exit speed of the ball is a function of momentum transfer from the bat to the ball. The exit speed is roughly linear with the bat speed and the bat mass and is affected by the coefficient of restitution of the ball and bat, which is why Maple hits the ball further.

The mass of the player contributes to bat speed but doesn't significantly contribute to the momentum transfer to the ball.

So...weight shift doesn't matter???