Bats

My first HS game is 10 days away but our interpreter has directed us to deal with the issue as follows (you won't believe this):

If the legality of a composite bat is challenged, the coach of the team using the bat in question must prove that it is legal. This can only accomplished by such COACH producing a list of either legal or illegal bats. If the bat is on the list (or not on the list, as the case may be), the bat is legal. Otherwise, it is not. There is no limit to the number of challenges that can be made.

This could get interesting if a bat is challenged, both coaches have lists, and the lists are not identical.

I believe this interpretation came directly from our state (NY) interpreter. I'm just going to do as I am told. There is no need for me to carry any list of bats, since it would be irrelevant toward the resolution of any dispute.

On a related note, I love the new BBCOR bats. The players (except pitchers) hate them. The ping is gone (sort of). It's a beautiful thing.

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:
My first HS game is 10 days away but our interpreter has directed us to deal with the issue as follows (you won't believe this):

If the legality of a composite bat is challenged, the coach of the team using the bat in question must prove that it is legal. This can only accomplished by such COACH producing a list of either legal or illegal bats.

I remember a minor uproar a while back when I suggested that it would be inappropriate to rely on a list provided by a coach when the rules, rightfully, put this in the hands of the umpire. Some posters where aghast that I would imply the coaches couldn't be trusted.

Well, today, one coach protested my rejection of his bat by producing a list of what he referred to as "Fed Approved Bats" that contained no fewer than six illegal composite bats, including one I had removed.

I know I will catch some flak for this here but our umpires were CLUELESS. I posted this on the Ca. page.

I will start this off by saying my son goes to a very very small southern section school. We had our second game today and the other teams coaches players and parents had no idea what a BBCOR bat was. This was their first game.

I was near their dugout taking pictures of the kids during pre game and over heard the 2 umpires tell them which bats were legal and which one were not. They did not have a legal bat and the umpires had no clue which did not surprise me at all. The umpires told them they had 2 bats that were legal a older stealth composite and a Demarini 1 piece alloy bat.

Our coach decided not to call them on it which in the long run didn't matter we wound up mercing them and we are not very good. Now this does not surprise me at all because of the division we play in and the caliber of umpires we get anyway.

quote:

They did not have a legal bat and the umpires had no clue which did not surprise me at all. The umpires told them they had 2 bats that were legal a older stealth composite and a Demarini 1 piece alloy bat.

Our coach decided not to call them on it which in the long run didn't matter we wound up mercing them and we are not very good. Now this does not surprise me at all because of the division we play in and the caliber of umpires we get anyway.

How did you determine which bats were legal/illegal?

How did the umpires determine which bats were legal/illegal?

From the information in the OP, I can't determine who was clueless. HTBT.

First game is Wednesday, and it's a JV game. I don't expect too many issues, as most of the kids are just getting started.

The only complaints I have heard is it is just too complicated. Had a varsity coach, out of state team, say it would be nice if there was a simple list to tell what is legal. I gave him a copy of my list that shows the legal composite barrels. He looked at it and he said it was too short. I explained it contained the 30 or 32 bats that are legal composites, the look of relief was funny. I did kick two of his bats out and he was fine. I did have one player Sat. that got snippy when I kicked his bat. He said he had been using it for three years. I told him I had no doubt but this year it is illegal. He wasn't happy but his coach, an exMLB pitcher, told him to shutup and put it in his bag. He told him if I said it was illegal then it was illegal.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
The only complaints I have heard is it is just too complicated. Had a varsity coach, out of state team, say it would be nice if there was a simple list to tell what is legal. I gave him a copy of my list that shows the legal composite barrels. He looked at it and he said it was too short. I explained it contained the 30 or 32 bats that are legal composites, the look of relief was funny.

I can't believe how many people are making this more complicated than it needs to be. We are handling it the same way as you are: a list of LEGAL composite barrel bats. IT makes little sense to carry the much larger list of illegal bats or, worse yet, all legal bats.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

I can't believe how many people are making this more complicated than it needs to be. We are handling it the same way as you are: a list of LEGAL composite barrel bats. IT makes little sense to carry the much larger list of illegal bats or, worse yet, all legal bats.

Amen. I started out with a neat little laminated list of legal composite bats. It easily fit into my lineup card holder and I could read it without glasses. That wasn't good enough for the state. Now the onus is on the coach (with no option for me to verify). Let the fun begin.

[/QUOTE]
1) How did you determine which bats were legal/illegal?

2) How did the umpires determine which bats were legal/illegal?

3) From the information in the OP, I can't determine who was clueless. HTBT.[/QUOTE]



1)If you look back at most of my post they have probley been about bats. I'm very up to date of whats new and how they perform and whats legal and what not legal. Here in Ca. there are 3 choices for bats. 1)wood 2)BBCOR 3)BESR waiver bats/ABI tested
The Easton composite used was a BCN4. Easton does not have a bat on the NFHS waiver list. Easton has some on the Little League 2 1/4 1.15 bpf waiver list but not for High school. The 2nd one was a older low end Demarini 1 piece Alloy bat. I was talking with one of their parents explaining to him about the BBCOR standard and the difference between that and the BESR bats and they were never told anything by their A.D or coach.
http://www.cifstate.org/sports/other/baseball.html
http://www.nfhs.org/content.aspx?id=4155

2) 10 min after we talked about it the umpires came in and decided which bats were legal and told them to put away the rest. I don't know how the umpires decided which were legal and which were not. They were not up to date on the rules. After the umpires left the dugout the dad I was talking to asked his son if the bats had the BESR stamp on it and his son said they had the BESR stamp.

3)On being clueless it starts at the top. The umpires are in control from when before the game starts to when it ends. It's up to them to stay on top of the new bat rules I know there have been a lot of changes but that's no excuse. The other schools A.D and coach should have known about the changes and let the players and parents know. On a side note their starting pitcher threw a 140 pitches they did not know and were not keeping track of it.

quote:

Originally posted by LJ3813:

I don't know how the umpires decided which were legal and which were not.
They were not up to date on the rules.

How could you possibly know?

quote:

After the umpires left the dugout the dad I was talking to asked his son if the bats had the BESR stamp on it and his son said they had the BESR stamp.

Bats can be illegal for a number of reasons. No BESR screen is only one of them.

quote:

On being clueless it starts at the top. The umpires are in control from when before the game starts to when it ends. It's up to them to stay on top of the new bat rules I know there have been a lot of changes but that's no excuse.

I agree with you 100%.

Long time lurker, 1st time poster.

Hi E1,

My issue is not that the coaches/umpires don't have a clue; it's that "the water is too muddy".

We had our 1st scrimmage a few weeks ago and the bat in question was NOT on any "approved" or "Unapproved" list. I was told the bat was good.

We then played our 1st game a week later and I was told (the same Bat) if NOT on a list ("approved" or "Unapproved") then it can't be used (cover you’re A$$ answer). The bat in question is a DeMarini Aluminum barrel w/composite handle BESR stamped.

The umpire in our 1st game also told me that he has never heard of an "Unapproved" bat list.

I have the complete list CAT A, B, C, D, and unapproved lists along with the approved composite. I have checked and highlighted (along with each players name next to the bat). Out of 13 players we have 7 legal bats.

I also hear coaches and parents trying to figure this out (it’s crazy). NFHS should have just went to the BBCOR standard for this year!

Thanks for reading

quote:

Originally posted by Boneyard:
Long time lurker, 1st time poster.

Hi E1,

My issue is not that the coaches/umpires don't have a clue; it's that "the water is too muddy".

We had our 1st scrimmage a few weeks ago and the bat in question was NOT on any "approved" or "Unapproved" list. I was told the bat was good.

We then played our 1st game a week later and I was told (the same Bat) if NOT on a list ("approved" or "Unapproved") then it can't be used (cover you’re A$$ answer). The bat in question is a DeMarini Aluminum barrel w/composite handle BESR stamped.

The umpire in our 1st game also told me that he has never heard of an "Unapproved" bat list.

I have the complete list CAT A, B, C, D, and unapproved lists along with the approved composite. I have checked and highlighted (along with each players name next to the bat). Out of 13 players we have 7 legal bats.

I also hear coaches and parents trying to figure this out (it’s crazy). NFHS should have just went to the BBCOR standard for this year!

Thanks for reading

Your bat in question is speficially allowed in states that follow NFHS bat regulations. It does not have a composite barrel and, according to you, is aluminum and has the BESR screen.

Again....just follow the rules and the waivered bat list. It's not rocket science.

When in doubt toss it out! Thats what I was told to do...I tossed an Easton Composite NOT on the list!

If the barrel is not composite and it is BESR approved then it is legal. I kicked a bat tonight, manager wasn't happy. He said he checked the unapproved list and it wasn't on it. I told him it wasn't on the approved list either so it was out. He said fine but he would look into it. He was another out of state team so I told him who to check with in his state. He's one of those managers that will try to slide it in the next game.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:
My first HS game is 10 days away but our interpreter has directed us to deal with the issue as follows (you won't believe this):

If the legality of a composite bat is challenged, the coach of the team using the bat in question must prove that it is legal. This can only accomplished by such COACH producing a list of either legal or illegal bats.

I remember a minor uproar a while back when I suggested that it would be inappropriate to rely on a list provided by a coach when the rules, rightfully, put this in the hands of the umpire. Some posters where aghast that I would imply the coaches couldn't be trusted.

Well, today, one coach protested my rejection of his bat by producing a list of what he referred to as "Fed Approved Bats" that contained no fewer than six illegal composite bats, including one I had removed.

Hi Jimmy,
I believe that minor uproar was me
My scenario then was that if there was some doubt and both coaches could collaborate on confirming the correct ruling (by some reasonable documentation), that would be a data point an umpire may consider. Apparently, that wasn't too far fetched as now, several states are putting the onus on the coaches for having the proper documentation. That is the case in our state - most games so far, umpire asks if we have the list as he checks our bats. So far, no problems. I actually agree with you that this is not the ideal situation. But this and other threads confirm that many of the umpires are not yet fully prepared to make the correct ruling when questioned and there is some level of collaboration that is helpful.

So do you think the list your coach produced was actually doctored or he just had the wrong list and was confused or not properly informed?

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:
My first HS game is 10 days away but our interpreter has directed us to deal with the issue as follows (you won't believe this):

If the legality of a composite bat is challenged, the coach of the team using the bat in question must prove that it is legal. This can only accomplished by such COACH producing a list of either legal or illegal bats.

I remember a minor uproar a while back when I suggested that it would be inappropriate to rely on a list provided by a coach when the rules, rightfully, put this in the hands of the umpire. Some posters where aghast that I would imply the coaches couldn't be trusted.

Well, today, one coach protested my rejection of his bat by producing a list of what he referred to as "Fed Approved Bats" that contained no fewer than six illegal composite bats, including one I had removed.

Hi Jimmy,
I believe that minor uproar was me
My scenario then was that if there was some doubt and both coaches could collaborate on confirming the correct ruling (by some reasonable documentation), that would be a data point an umpire may consider. Apparently, that wasn't too far fetched as now, several states are putting the onus on the coaches for having the proper documentation. That is the case in our state - most games so far, umpire asks if we have the list as he checks our bats. So far, no problems. I actually agree with you that this is not the ideal situation. But this and other threads confirm that many of the umpires are not yet fully prepared to make the correct ruling when questioned and there is some level of collaboration that is helpful.

So do you think the list your coach produced was actually doctored or he just had the wrong list and was confused or not properly informed?

I have not seen a statewide notice that coaches are now endorsed to enforce the rules. I know New York has done so. Sets a dangerous precedent in my mind as it completely violates the written rules, tradition and common sense.

The list the coach handed me was one he claimed came from the FED website. I recognized that it did not.

Thanks Jimmy, I'm sure you're right regarding CA. The A.D. and a handful of umps have stated that this is their directive for this area anyway.
I do agree with you that this isn't a good precedent.

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:


Amen. I started out with a neat little laminated list of legal composite bats. It easily fit into my lineup card holder and I could read it without glasses. That wasn't good enough for the state. Now the onus is on the coach (with no option for me to verify). Let the fun begin.

Need to ask...Do they sell tickets to that $hit show? I'd like to see it sometime.

Surprisingly enough, the bat issue has NOT been an issue at all through our first dozen games (5A-I in AZ). No hoopla, no arguments, no po'd parents or coaches.

In fact, we haven't had anything noteworthy happen in any of our games that I feel warrants a post. Other than the occasional wide strike zone, we've had nothing.

Our new pitching coach is getting the signs in quickly, and most of our games have been under two hours. We played a 1-0 affair Thursday that was done in 1:15. We played a 12-6 game in 1:50. We only went over 2 hours for sure in a 12-11 game that went 8 innings.

I hope I just didn't jinx it.