BBCOR bats coming to a high school near you - what to expect

BOF,
Were the players realy using BBCOR bats? Here in the Bay Area, the bat of choice was the DeMarini CF4, which is not BBCOR certified.

I don't know how the CF4 compares to BBCOR bats, but an inference is that it provides some "pop" advantage, since a lot of hitters use it.

I saw a mix of BBCOR's, CF4's, and some wood. Our team had both and according to my son at least our team's CF4 was basically dead half way through the season. I will keep my data and compare it to next year, just to be sure, but I don't think there was much difference.

Well BOF, one thing needs to be made sure everyone understands is, there were bats other than pure BBCOR allowed in Ca.. Please see http://www.cifstate.org/sports...h%20Model%20Name.pdf

Even though some composites were waived, I believe they were all ABI certified.

But be all that as it may, the fact is the non-wood bats in Ca this year were as a group, not as “HOT” as either last season, or the other states. I’ve been watching this issue like a hawk, and believe that in general, your observations about the top players would be pretty much the same all the way down to the bottom players.

I can’t/won’t try to compare other teams, but I can compare ours for you if you’d care to look. http://www.infosports.com/scor...r/images/compare.pdf

Our team is a DI(Large school). We started playing V ball in 2007 and have a 101-47-3 record. The comparison was done using the previous 4 years to compare this season to, and as you can see, the differences aren’t crazy different either in pitching or hitting.

I’ve heard pretty much the same “IMPRESSION” from several people that you had about low scoring games, but I’ve seen nothing factual to back that up. If you want to go through the time and trouble to do it, you can get fairly good stats for many teams by using MaxPreps and using their history feature. It allows you to look at previous seasons stats.

I’m convinced that while there is a difference in bat performance, its exacerbated by what people are predisposed to believe because of what they’ve heard, than actual performance. IOW, the differences are more in people’s minds than in actuality. Here’s our team’s differential for each of the last 5 seasons. As you can see, the runs scored allowed differ by as much as 4.5 runs and the runs allowed as much as 1.7. (Page 1 is 2007, 2 is 2008, …,5 2011)

http://www.infosports.com/scor...r/images/differ3.pdf

I don’t believe there’s any more worry about maintaining the interest of marginal players using BBCOR bats as there was when allowing the hottest of the hot bats, because the relation of players to where their abilities place them will not change one bit.

I think what’s gonna be determined in future years after some study is, it will be determined that while there were plenty of super hot bats floating around, and even plenty that were “modified” on top of how hot they were out of the box. But that doesn’t mean that anything like a majority of players were using them in HS. In tournaments and showcases it was probably true, but its an entirely different “AVERAGE” player on a HS team than on a tournament or showcase team.

From watching college games the result is (will be) lower ERA's, less home runs and lower batting averages. Some average pitchers are having career years.

Pitching numbers will look better...premium on strike throwers or guys who can strike you out...average stuff and no command WON'T WORK....too many base runners allowed....for the hitters contrary to most people's thoughts it will not "level the playing field" it MAKES IT WIDER....either you have bat speed or you don't....if you don't you simply can not play...share the concern of an earlier poster that younger players won't enjoy the game when they can't hit it out of the infield and some marginal guys might quit the game young...this is my observations from watching 60-70 college games this year.

quote:

Originally posted by bsballfan:
Pitching numbers will look better...premium on strike throwers or guys who can strike you out...average stuff and no command WON'T WORK....too many base runners allowed....for the hitters contrary to most people's thoughts it will not "level the playing field" it MAKES IT WIDER....either you have bat speed or you don't....if you don't you simply can not play...share the concern of an earlier poster that younger players won't enjoy the game when they can't hit it out of the infield and some marginal guys might quit the game young...this is my observations from watching 60-70 college games this year.

Look at what you wrote, but rather than looking at it from the perspective of bats, look at it from the perspective of what’s generally accepted as the formula for having success in baseball. I think you’ll agree that they’re all part and parcel of baseball dogma, regardless of the equipment.

either you have bat speed or you don't… if you don't you simply can not play

That’s simply wrong! Your implication is that only those with the quickest bats can have success, and that’s just flat out wrong! A high bat speed couple with a lousy understanding of the strike zone, a poor ability to read what a pitch is, the ability to wait on OS pitches, or a poor ability to put the bat where it needs to be are what have made pitchers successful since baseball began.

After all those college games you watched, how many marginal players quit? Surely you can’t be saying all college players are above average, because that wouldn’t be mathematically possible.

In the end, your opinion may well be right and mine wrong, but after having seen the game played when there wasn’t any advantage to be gained by “better” bats, I have to believe not much is going to change. There will always be players both above and below average.

All of the maetal bat tournaments we are playing in this summer are giving the players a choice of using BBCOR or Wood. Is it true that BBCOR isn't any better than a wood bat? If that is true than I will just swing wood the whole summer.

quote:

Originally posted by Dad04:
From watching college games the result is (will be) lower ERA's, less home runs and lower batting averages. Some average pitchers are having career years.

Does that mean no average pitcher ever had a career year prior to BBCOR? I maintain that a pitcher having more success than the average is not an average pitcher.

quote:

In the end, your opinion may well be right and mine wrong, but after having seen the game played when there wasn’t any advantage to be gained by “better” bats, I have to believe not much is going to change.

Stats,
I think you and I will eventually agree on some things when it comes to the impact of the bats.
I happen to fully agree with 3FG on the impact of the Demarini CF4 as it relates to HS baseball this Spring. I didn't watch a huge number of HS games. The ones I did were top teams with very good players.
Honestly after watching upwards of 35 or so college games, I was amazed at the first HS game. I had to stand by the on deck circle to see what was being swung because it was not at all like college bats/games. It was the CF4.
The CF4 results were far different than BBCOR. HR's hit..long ones, against good pitching by top CCS teams. The CF4 had a different sound and the ball off the bat was much faster and on a very consistent basis. To be honest, the games where both teams were using the CF4 seemed very similar to BESR baseball of 2010.
If I were a college coach scouting a HS game and watched hitters using the CF4, I would be wary of using that to project to BBCOR in college.
In contrast, and to your point, at the college level this year, I think BBCOR does change the game, and is especially challenging infielders. Maybe it is my imagination, but the number of infield slow roller singles with BBCOR seems quite reminiscent of Texas league hits off the fist with BESR, in terms of numbers.
More importantly, balls hit with BBCOR are slower so infielders can get to more balls, but they need much more range and arm strength. When they get to the ball they are throwing from very different places and they are on the move. To my eye, there certainly is an increased emphasis on speed/quickness/reactions and arm strength. In 2010, many balls hit with BESR were though the infield. In 2011, with BBCOR, they can be fielded, but the position on the diamond put some real challenges on position players.
Even routine but not hard hit ground balls to short end up being very close plays because the ball does not get there as fast.
Finally, I think the new bats do expose more in a swing. In February, before the season, I didn't think this would be true. 35 games changed my views. Some hitters get exposed.
Bottom line, I think HS games where the CF4 was used by good teams are very little changed from 2010.
College...I do believe some BBCOR bats have made the game tougher to play for hitters and position players, especially middle infielders. Current stadiums/fences are too big for most hitters with some BBCOR and there are a lot of long fly balls...outs. Teams played more small ball and there are more infield hits, to my eye either in the form of slow rollers off the cap that could not be fielded or were fielded in positions where a throw with adequate velocity could not be made.
One scouting report of a college series showed 3 weekend game with less than 10 total runs scored, a shutout in each game and, if I remember right, something like 27 sacrifice bunts in those games.
I don't remember that in 2010 at the college level.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:

quote:

In the end, your opinion may well be right and mine wrong, but after having seen the game played when there wasn’t any advantage to be gained by “better” bats, I have to believe not much is going to change.

Stats,
I think you and I will eventually agree on some things when it comes to the impact of the bats.
I happen to fully agree with 3FG on the impact of the Demarini CF4 as it relates to HS baseball this Spring. I didn't watch a huge number of HS games. The ones I did were top teams with very good players.
Honestly after watching upwards of 35 or so college games, I was amazed at the first HS game. I had to stand by the on deck circle to see what was being swung because it was not at all like college bats/games. It was the CF4.
The CF4 results were far different than BBCOR. HR's hit..long ones, against good pitching by top CCS teams. The CF4 had a different sound and the ball off the bat was much faster and on a very consistent basis. To be honest, the games where both teams were using the CF4 seemed very similar to BESR baseball of 2010.
If I were a college coach scouting a HS game and watched hitters using the CF4, I would be wary of using that to project to BBCOR in college.
In contrast, and to your point, at the college level this year, I think BBCOR does change the game, and is especially challenging infielders. Maybe it is my imagination, but the number of infield slow roller singles with BBCOR seems quite reminiscent of Texas league hits off the fist with BESR, in terms of numbers.
More importantly, balls hit with BBCOR are slower so infielders can get to more balls, but they need much more range and arm strength. When they get to the ball they are throwing from very different places and they are on the move. To my eye, there certainly is an increased emphasis on speed/quickness/reactions and arm strength. In 2010, many balls hit with BESR were though the infield. In 2011, with BBCOR, they can be fielded, but the position on the diamond put some real challenges on position players.
Even routine but not hard hit ground balls to short end up being very close plays because the ball does not get there as fast.
Finally, I think the new bats do expose more in a swing. In February, before the season, I didn't think this would be true. 35 games changed my views. Some hitters get exposed.
Bottom line, I think HS games where the CF4 was used by good teams are very little changed from 2010.
College...I do believe some BBCOR bats have made the game tougher to play for hitters and position players, especially middle infielders. Current stadiums/fences are too big for most hitters with some BBCOR and there are a lot of long fly balls...outs. Teams played more small ball and there are more infield hits, to my eye either in the form of slow rollers off the cap that could not be fielded or were fielded in positions where a throw with adequate velocity could not be made.
One scouting report of a college series showed 3 weekend game with less than 10 total runs scored, a shutout in each game and, if I remember right, something like 27 sacrifice bunts in those games.
I don't remember that in 2010 at the college level.

I agree for the most part. I think the CF4 is better than a BBCOR bat but not by that much. The CF4 is not nearly as good as the best BESR bats form the past. There is clearly a difference between a CF4 and lets say the old Voodoo BESR.

On the college side of things I agree with Infield dad. Watched lots of west coast college games in the Big West, PAC 10, WCC, and WAC. Not like previous years with lots of home runs. These bats have made a big difference in stats. It does expose the weaker hitters but maybe as the players get more used to them things may improve.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
Stats,
I think you and I will eventually agree on some things when it comes to the impact of the bats.

I think you’ll find we already do, once we pare off all the hyperbole and guessing.

quote:

I happen to fully agree with 3FG on the impact of the Demarini CF4 as it relates to HS baseball this Spring.

I agree with him too because I saw it as the preferred bat by a majority of hitters I saw walk to the plate. I admit I’ve only seen about 40 games this season so my experience can’t be considered as what happened across the board, but I suspect from what others have said, that my experience is fairly “normal”.

As for how potent the C4 was compared to straight BBCOR, that’s something that can only be answered by those guys with the slide rules. One reason the C4 was waived, was that it met the ABI standard. IOW, they felt it couldn’t be tampered with to make it hotter. So, it met the BESR standard and couldn’t be rolled or whatever to make it exceed the standard.

So what your left with is a bat that will perform better than a BBCOR bat, but its lot like one bat is a rock and the other a rocket launcher! The difference is only the difference in the two standards. The BESR standard wasn’t a bad one as far as performance went, its that once you got outside the parameters of the test, all bets were off. If a BESR bat can’t improve, I doubt they really are all that much better than BBCOR.

quote:

I didn't watch a huge number of HS games. The ones I did were top teams with very good players.

Here’s the trick with HS that skews everyone’s perception. Even the very best teams have a few players that are at best “average”. But who leaves an impression on an observer? The 3 kids who went 2 for 12 with 4 K’s, or the 2 who were 6-8 with Xbhits, RBI’s, and drove the pitchers nuts on the bases?

quote:

Honestly after watching upwards of 35 or so college games, I was amazed at the first HS game. I had to stand by the on deck circle to see what was being swung because it was not at all like college bats/games. It was the CF4.
The CF4 results were far different than BBCOR. HR's hit..long ones, against good pitching by top CCS teams. The CF4 had a different sound and the ball off the bat was much faster and on a very consistent basis. To be honest, the games where both teams were using the CF4 seemed very similar to BESR baseball of 2010.

As I said, the C4 isn’t a BBCOR bat, it’s a BESR bat, so that should explain why it looked like 2010. And I won’t try to say BBCOR bats are comparable. However, I will reiterate that the difference is only the difference in the standard.

As for long HRs hit against good pitching, that’s exactly what I’d expect from a BESR bat. Good HS pitchers typically throw harder than the 80MPH used in the test, the bat is going to perform better. That’s a reason why BBCOR is a better standard. It doesn’t use exit speed to make the judgment.

quote:

If I were a college coach scouting a HS game and watched hitters using the CF4, I would be wary of using that to project to BBCOR in college.

Pardon me for saying it this way, but that’s kinda silly. For the last 15 years college coaches have been looking at kids using everything from titanium to carbon fiber and they managed to do ok. College recruiters and scouts may not be the greatest judges of talent in the world, but they certainly aren’t fools. They know a kid hitting line drives in the gap is gonna be doing it with a wood, non-wood, or BBCOR bat.

quote:

In contrast, and to your point, at the college level this year, I think BBCOR does change the game, and is especially challenging infielders. Maybe it is my imagination, but the number of infield slow roller singles with BBCOR seems quite reminiscent of Texas league hits off the fist with BESR, in terms of numbers.
More importantly, balls hit with BBCOR are slower so infielders can get to more balls, but they need much more range and arm strength. When they get to the ball they are throwing from very different places and they are on the move. To my eye, there certainly is an increased emphasis on speed/quickness/reactions and arm strength. In 2010, many balls hit with BESR were though the infield. In 2011, with BBCOR, they can be fielded, but the position on the diamond put some real challenges on position players.
Even routine but not hard hit ground balls to short end up being very close plays because the ball does not get there as fast.

I don’t know about that. In theory it makes sense, but I don’t know how anyone would prove it.

quote:

Finally, I think the new bats do expose more in a swing. In February, before the season, I didn't think this would be true. 35 games changed my views. Some hitters get exposed.

I suppose it depends on what “exposed” means. All players have swing flaws, so I’m assuming what you’re saying is, it’ll be easier to see those flaws with BBCOR. Well, whether or not that’s true, I’m all for skill being the main determiner of hitting success.

quote:

Bottom line, I think HS games where the CF4 was used by good teams are very little changed from 2010.
College...I do believe some BBCOR bats have made the game tougher to play for hitters and position players, especially middle infielders. Current stadiums/fences are too big for most hitters with some BBCOR and there are a lot of long fly balls...outs. Teams played more small ball and there are more infield hits, to my eye either in the form of slow rollers off the cap that could not be fielded or were fielded in positions where a throw with adequate velocity could not be made.
One scouting report of a college series showed 3 weekend game with less than 10 total runs scored, a shutout in each game and, if I remember right, something like 27 sacrifice bunts in those games.
I don't remember that in 2010 at the college level.

Because you don’t remember something, don’t assume it didn’t happen. LOL!

Seriously though, as I said above, I really don’t care! My son was a HS pitcher when the Titanium bats were in use, and a drop 5 could be swung, and I absolutely hated it because the game was skewed toward the hitter far too much IMO. I got to see BESR become the standard, and to me it was a Godsend for his V career, but by the time he got to college, 500’ HRs in BP were not unusual because by then the new materials were getting better and better.

So while some folks whined and worried about safety, I never did. I just wanted to see offense back on a fairly even par with defense(pitching). BBCOR looks like its gonna go a long way toward doing that, I couldn’t be happier! I just don’t want someone who has the $$$, to be able to buy a significant improvement in his game. In fact, I’ve watched a few kids pick up a $40 BBCOR bat and find out it performs just as good as one that costs $300, and I get a kick out of the angst that brings.

warningtrack,
this recent article would seem to put the CF4 perhaps someplace between our respective positions and I readily admit I would not/did not see as many HS games as I am betting you have.
This completely supports your view on the CF4 and the Voodoo.

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/05/...all-rule-drives.html

I have seen numerous college games this season. I speak to numerous players and coaches. The stats prove what they are saying. The new bats have changed the game. Its more like wood. There are way more weak hit ground balls, slow rollers. Players are having to learn how to read the ball off the bat from swings that used to produce hard shots to weaker ground balls. There are a lot more close plays on ground balls and infielders are having to make the adjustment. The same with outfielders getting reads off of the new bats.

Just look at the hr stats. Look at the batting averages as well as team batting averages. And look at the era's. I am not saying its a bad thing I happen to like the fact the game plays more like wood. When a player hits it right it goes. When they dont it doesnt. Its just a lot harder to square it up just like wood.

I can tell you this the players I have talked to say they like wood better than the new bats. They say when they square it up with wood they can tell they have. They have no idea how well they have hit it with the new bats from the feel of it coming off the bat.

Your not going to be a power guy with the new bats unless you have legit power. Before anyone with one of those bats could be a power hitter. Eight hole batters were producing double digit hr's. I did not see one single cheap hr this year. Not one. The balls that went out were crushed. Balls that were just missed stayed in the park. That was not the case before BBCOR.

I ask anyone that watches college baseball and has watched college baseball before BBCOR to chime in. I would be willing to bet your seeing exactly what I have seen, the players are saying and the coaches are saying. Its no big deal because everyone is playing with the same bats. And I think the game is much better.

One more thing. Take a look at the sac bunts this year. There is a reason coaches are moving runners.

Stats,
Kinda silly? Are you sure. Think it through.
A college recruiting coordinator is now having to project from a CF4 to BBCOR.
Looks like Coach May and I are seeing nearly the exact same game being played in college, just on opposite Coasts.
I am not sure how it could be "kinda silly" for a college coach to have a new factor in assessing projection with the bats. Before this year, they compared apples to apples for hitters and bats.
Now they don't.
Now it is closer to an MLB scout watching a college player using metal and projecting them with wood.
Why would that be an important factor for a MLB scout and not for a college coach?
Oh, and that piece of "kinda silly" stuff actually came from a college coach.
I feel like I am on pretty solid ground seeing and hearing very similar things with Coach May.

Look at what you wrote, but rather than looking at it from the perspective of bats, look at it from the perspective of what’s generally accepted as the formula for having success in baseball. I think you’ll agree that they’re all part and parcel of baseball dogma, regardless of the equipment.

either you have bat speed or you don't… if you don't you simply can not play

That’s simply wrong! Your implication is that only those with the quickest bats can have success, and that’s just flat out wrong! A high bat speed couple with a lousy understanding of the strike zone, a poor ability to read what a pitch is, the ability to wait on OS pitches, or a poor ability to put the bat where it needs to be are what have made pitchers successful since baseball began.

After all those college games you watched, how many marginal players quit? Surely you can’t be saying all college players are above average, because that wouldn’t be mathematically possible.

In the end, your opinion may well be right and mine wrong, but after having seen the game played when there wasn’t any advantage to be gained by “better” bats, I have to believe not much is going to change. There will always be players both above and below average.[/QUOTE]

Actually what I said was if you DON'T have bat speed you won't be able to hit I never said that if you DO have bat speed that you will hit...just because the negative is true does not mean the positive is true...as far as kids quitting baseball, I am saying when a 13 year old kid (and let's be honest BBCOR will go down to the lowest levels soon) can't get the ball through the IF even when he "crushes it" yes, I do worry they'll quit playing baseball and play other sports instead...that's just my opinion though...the bat speed thing is a fact, ask any college coach and it will be the absolute #1 recruiting priority for hitters.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
warningtrack,
this recent article would seem to put the CF4 perhaps someplace between our respective positions and I readily admit I would not/did not see as many HS games as I am betting you have.
This completely supports your view on the CF4 and the Voodoo.

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/05/...all-rule-drives.html

Yes, the CF4 while better than BBCOR (slightly) is no comparison to the best BESR bats. In fact last year I can only remember a few kids who swung the CF4. The kids that purchased those bats quickly realized they were not very good.

All I can say is that next year will be the real test. At least in California the kids have an idea what to expect.......it's a BIG difference.

Coach May, I worked fewer NCAA level games this year, just 18, and I caught maybe another 6-8 on television. I have no scientific data...just my observations. They line up with what you posted here and what, I believe, you posted earlier this winter...
Real hitters still hit.

But the cheap singles and doubles are gone and the home run derby is over. I also saw more "moving the runners over" and steal attempts than I can remember in recent times.

I was listening to a Regional broadcast of a D1 game about 3/4's of the way through the season. He cited NCAA numbers through the first half of the season; Home Runs were down to half last years at the same date and complete games were near double that of last season.

Seems like a pretty good factual reflection of the impact of BBCOR on the College game. Those numbers were right on in my sons conference and the 50+ games I witnessed.

Also, saw Brian Jordan take BP with one before a minor league game (he was part of the announcing crew for the game) and afterwards he said they "s***ed" and in no way resembled the aluminum of old or wood, for that matter.

That too resembles what I saw all season and heard player after player reiterate.

Yea, if you square it up perfectly it will still go out but will travel 30-40' less than the old bats. And squaring it up, is a tad tougher!

Not meaning to hijack this thread, but I have been wondering how players are going to feel this summer when they all go to the wood bat summer leagues. Will they like the wood bats better? That seemed to be the consensus of the college kids I talked to about the BBCOR bats.

I wish they'd go to wood and be done with it. Hopefully D2 will be the first and the others will follow.

quote:

Originally posted by birdman14:
Not meaning to hijack this thread, but I have been wondering how players are going to feel this summer when they all go to the wood bat summer leagues. Will they like the wood bats better? That seemed to be the consensus of the college kids I talked to about the BBCOR bats.

For the most part, I've seen most players and teams using wood in at least one round of their on-field BP sessions since the season began. From the get-go all that I've discussed this with have preferred wood to BBCOR. Wood Bat leagues begin next week and some teams are working out and not hearing of anyone missing the BBCOR's! Wood has been a proposed option for next year from last Fall's meetings. It will be interesting to see if they vote to go that way in this years meetings.

The college team my son is going to next year uses wood in all of their intersquads so it should be no big deal.

FWIW, he felt his wood bats had more “pop” than the CF4 and BBCOR’s his HS team had last year. (I think it had to do with better balance at least for him) His fall and summer numbers using all wood bats against superior pitching were about the same as his HS season, but he had more HR’s in the summer.(go figure) I have not compared Maxpreps team scoring numbers year over year for our area, but assuming they are down, then the reduced scoring had to come from 1) Fewer HR’s. 2) Less production from players other than the top kids. (at least in our County, which has a lot of highly ranked teams I might add) Overall I have been happy with the effect of the change this year in the HS season, we had more close games, which made them more strategic, particularly in the latter innings.

infielddad,

What makes it silly to me is, its only gonna be one year in 1 state, not forever. And I can’t see how in 1 year there’s gonna be a huge mistaking of abilities by college coaches. Or maybe its just that I have more confidence in them than you do.

I don’t disagree with what you and Coach May are perceiving, and I don’t disagree that a lot of it is backed up by the numbers. What I don’t agree with you about, is how drastic the effect is across the board. There’s a lot of difference between college programs, and I’m just trying to point out that the only way to tell for sure, is to keep comparing what’s taking place now and for the next couple years, with what took place for the few years before.

But by then the whole thing will be even more moot than it is now. For all the commenting, I have heard very few voices say the game isn’t better off for this change. And for all the voices supposedly saying they’d rather use wood, I sure haven’t heard of many doing that, so why even bother saying it?

I’ve been telling folks all year that Ca HSB is gonna be very much ahead of the game next season because they’ve already vented most of their ire this season. And while at the beginning of the season the bats were a huge deal and causing all kinds of issues, Now its back to simply HS baseball. Every once in a while someone will see a ball get hit hard but not go out, and there’ll be a comment that it would have gone last year, but its just that, a comment, not a complaint.

bsballfan,

I sure hope BBCOR goes down to the lowest levels soon, but I seriously doubt that you’ll see kids who can’t get the ball through the IF, even if they “crush” it. Now that doesn’t mean some players won’t quit the game because it doesn’t give them enough “action”, but there’s no way I can see it being something that endangers the game in any way.

As I’ve stated so many times before, I come from a time when there was nothing but wood anywhere in the game, and I sure don’t’ remember kids quitting because they couldn’t launch a 250’ blast at 7YO! IMO, all that’s gonna happen is, the expectations for everyone are gonna be reduced somewhat, and within a couple of years, what takes place now will have been long forgotten.

For all its dependence on stats and history, to the players the game is played in the moment or the future. They have to deal with what is rather than dwell on what was, because they don’t have the luxury of time to worry about it. That kind of thing is for us old farts, dads and coaches to wring our hands over and tell stories about.

Jimmy03,

Here’s what I think has happened. The college coaches with anything on the ball, have known this bat thing was coming for 2-3 years, and many of them began making changes to how they were gonna play the game because of it. The things that were important when they recruited players 5 years ago have changed a bit, and because of it, the way the game’s been played has changed a bit too. And don’t discount the changes in the college rules in the last 3 years for having an effect on who got recruited too.

So, rather than the entire game changing from 1 year to the next like a switch being turned on, its been 2-3 years of subtle changes, and this year when the bats finally did change, all the things put in place ahead of time have simply produced what should have been expected all along.

But knowing baseball has a way of changing and making itself over, I’m guessing that as everyone gets used to the bats, there’s gonna be a slow but sure change back to more of a “power” offensive game. Of course it’ll never go back to what it was, but it won’t remain “Punch and Judy” ball either. What’s gonna happen is, eventually we’ll see a combination of the two, much more along the lines of MLB, which is exactly where the college game should be.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
… FWIW, he felt his wood bats had more “pop” than the CF4 and BBCOR’s his HS team had last year. …

If he really felt that way, why on earth isn’t he using wood in games now? I’m sorry, but I just don’t get why any coach wouldn’t want his players to use every possible advantageous thing there was. Heck, in FB and BB we hear of college coaches cheating all the time on things that are against he rules, so it just doesn’t make sense they’d miss the chance to do something perfectly within the rules.

Because of the pressure due to the bat contract. Even at the small NAIA school my son attended, there was an equipment contract, and no one used a bat other than the one furnished, even though several expressed a desire to use wood instead.

My own observations after watching four years of DII and NAIA baseball, the first three with BESR and this year with BBCOR, go along with fewer home runs, fewer doubles, more hit and run plays, fewer runs, quicker games.

Good hitters still hit. I know of one individual who had struggled during summer wood bat leagues (below Mendoza line) but hit .300 last year with BESR. Back below Mendoza line this year with BBCOR.

My son adjusted to the BBCOR, but his initial response was along the rather use wood lines. His power numbers dropped, but still hit for average, and some of last year's HRs turned into SacFlies this year lol.

Overall, from a spectator viewpoint, I enjoyed the games more this year, they were more like "real baseball", not video game 16-12 slugfests. Again, only speaking from what I observed over the past few years.

Stats, I get you, however coaches have reasons for doing things a certain way, and don't always listen to 18YO's..... We saw some teams allow players to use wood and other who did not. He used the bat he was told to use and did not worry about it.

He is happily swinging away with his wood bat right now. Connie Mack games should start up in a couple of weeks, HS season is over, there is harmony in his world and life is good.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
Stats, I get you, however coaches have reasons for doing things a certain way, and don't always listen to 18YO's..... We saw some teams allow players to use wood and other who did not. He used the bat he was told to use and did not worry about it.

He is happily swinging away with his wood bat right now. Connie Mack games should start up in a couple of weeks, HS season is over, there is harmony in his world and life is good.

I didn’t want to be the one who made what could be taken as another negative comment about coaches, because it wouldn’t have been. The way you put it allows people to make they’re own judgment depending on their own experiences. Thanx for not ducking. You hit it out of the park!

In the end, the players still need to play the game for the guy who calls the shots, using the tools he allows them to use. Every team is different because every coach is different, the players he has are different, and the situation is different. Our coach encouraged using wood in BP, but it was forbidden in games.

I’m looking forward to the summer myself. For the last few years I’ve stayed away from summer scoring because its become way to expensive to follow a team around just for a hobby. This year I’m supposed to score for one of the local club’s 19U team, and as long as they pay for my gas and lodging, I’m all for it.

The reason I’m looking forward to it so much is, these kids are supposed to be a step up from the normal HS players, and that’ll give me a better picture of what’s out there. Other than my team’s players who I see every day, I only get to see maybe 15-20 of the top players in the area each season, even with playing 30 games. There just aren’t more than 2-4 “really good” players on many teams, and that skews perspectives.

As for what bat he uses, wood/non-wood, from what I’ve been told by a bat manufacturer and by a couple of the scientists working on the whole bat issue, the 2012 BBCORs should be “better” than to 2011’s. They won’t be any “hotter”, but there’s supposed to be a lot more variations in weight/balance available, and as people get more used to what MOI really means to the feel of a bat, I believe the players will grow more “comfortable” with them.

And when ya think about it, from the bat perspective the season’s been pretty good considering it’s the 1st year with any feedback. The limited usage in fall ball really didn’t tell the manufacturers a lot, but you can bet your bippy they’ve got their ears to the ground, and if there’s a way to make their product more attractive, they’re gonna do it.

quote:

Originally posted by baseball17:
Because of the pressure due to the bat contract. Even at the small NAIA school my son attended, there was an equipment contract, and no one used a bat other than the one furnished, even though several expressed a desire to use wood instead.

My own observations after watching four years of DII and NAIA baseball, the first three with BESR and this year with BBCOR, go along with fewer home runs, fewer doubles, more hit and run plays, fewer runs, quicker games.

Good hitters still hit. I know of one individual who had struggled during summer wood bat leagues (below Mendoza line) but hit .300 last year with BESR. Back below Mendoza line this year with BBCOR.

My son adjusted to the BBCOR, but his initial response was along the rather use wood lines. His power numbers dropped, but still hit for average, and some of last year's HRs turned into SacFlies this year lol.

Overall, from a spectator viewpoint, I enjoyed the games more this year, they were more like "real baseball", not video game 16-12 slugfests. Again, only speaking from what I observed over the past few years.

Well, all I know about the bat contracts is what a manufacturer told me, and that was the money involved for the coaches is way overblown, as is what they expect from the teams in return for the equipment they supply. Now that doesn’t mean what I was told is true for all manufacturers, or even that he wasn’t shining me on, but I really wonder if the pressure from the manufacturers isn’t really a lot more coming from the coaches.

I sure don’t doubt what you’re seeing is true, but I have my reservations about it being either as dramatic as what people make it out to be, or that its entirely the bats being the reason for the drop.

And I don’t know that I’d name the bat as the reason for any player gaining or losing 100+ points on his BA. Heck, the scorer could be the reason for that, as could the quality of the opposition.

I really don’t understand why a player who used BESR. Would rather use wood than BBCOR. I honestly ge the feeling that a lot of what the players are saying and feeling, comes from the power of suggestion, and they’re just expressing what they think they should from what they’ve heard.

On of the scientists working on the BBCOR project showed me a poll taken by a couple hundred college hitters and their coaches, that showed they expected BBCOR bats to perform worse than wood, and they hadn’t even picked one up! To me that shows a predisposition that will take more than 1 season to overcome. But in the end, like you, as long as the offense has been caused to “pull back” some, I’m a happy guy!

Stats. It may well be that since my son actually plays more games with a wood bat than he does with a composite/metal bat that he just likes the feel of them better. Good hitters like to know when they square one up or not. Since he likes the balance better it may be that some of the improvements in the new BBCOR’s will be with their balance not the “performance” per se. Regardless he knows when he squares up a ball with a wood bat and he does not get this feel with a BBCOR bat. I do know that he hit more HR’s in summer/fall ball in bigger parks against better pitching.

Maybe it is just the fact that he has more fun in summer/fall and he is using a wood bat when this happens. Regardless, like you, he is very excited about summer ball. He plays on a very serious team where all of the kids are committed to 4 year schools. His team is very good; they win a lot, and have a great time together. When you play with kids who share your passion then it makes the whole experience enjoyable, which may just make him think wood is better. Don’t know, as this is all secondary evidence. Regardless BBCOR is coming to other HS’s next year, and overall it has been positive in California IMO.