Bells and whistles....

Some of the best statements you've ever made BD. Hitting is very individual and body movement is very important.
Technique can be taught to some who will never hit. Some can hit anyway they swing and when better or more efficient movement is taught to them, they become quality hitters.
Then the mental side of hitting comes in and you may have yourself an advanced hitter.

Along these lines, we do a series of plyo or medicine ball exercises that I believe tie in to what I believe leads to a higher level swing. Hey, I'm not expert and so, take all of this for what it is worth. One example is that we have our players stand back to back about 8-12 feet apart and holding onto one 15 pound medicine ball. (rubber kinds that will bounce.) Now, envision throwing hay bales. You would throw one to the teammate standing behind you. Say you throw on your right side. They catch it on their left side, continue the rotation and throw. ON and on and On. Then we reverse directions. You can do several other things during this catch, rotation and throw including the concept of "sitting" into the rotation. I do realize that this description sounds vague for most. I apologize. That same movement can be found in a swing. Another - 2 players sit facing each other, feet/legs spread out. Medicine ball in one player's hands with thumbs facing each other on the ball. Ball on the side of player as player throws to teammate. Ball thrown right side of one to right side of the other. As player catches ball, they rotate (negative) and then rotate (positive) to throw the ball back. Do both sides. Weight of ball depends upon strength of player. This is training the body. This core strength will then translate into the ability to better attempt the hitting philosophy that I have my players and child do. (PCR as described by S.E.)

One could easily take this argument further to comment that the differences in "technique" are why many cues are ineffective. They mean one thing in one technique and an entirely different thing in another.

Coach B,

Does that drill keep the ball moving and just transfer momentum using the half circular turn ?

If so, it teaches that the weight of a moving mass is easier to handle than a mass at rest.

Adapting the principle to baseball, it is better to swing the bat than carry the bat through the zone.

Young kids and many batters support the weight of the bat rather than getting it moving to make it seem lighter.

Quincy, go grab a 15 lbs medicine ball and give those "hay bales" a whirl. I'm worn out (basketball) and so, I don't know if I've presented this in a fashion such as to suggest that it is a technique. In training the body or building core strength, some of these exercises will not duplicate a "technique or pattern." This is a very simple exercise that will pay dividends. If not, I stated already that I'm no expert and so, ...

One could equally suggest that the other exercise I presented is also useless since you don't hit while sitting on your bottom side.

Quincy, when my girl hits via the different drills we've found beneficial from S.E., she always comments on her abs. To me her ability to drive the ball is testiment to this stuff. As a frosh last year, she was 3 doubles off of the single season record for our hs. That's good enough for me.

quote:

In training the body or building core strength, some of these exercises will not duplicate a "technique or pattern."

Coach, interesting you say this....And, I'm glad you did....

While I agree that technique is virtually meaningless in the hitting process, I do believe that pattern does have meaning....

quote:

Young kids and many batters support the weight of the bat rather than getting it moving to make it seem lighter.

Quincy, I have come to realize the importance of this....Gravity does come into play in the swing....

Collecting what would now be called mini bales taught me a few things about string tension and circular motion.

Being a city kid, I thought I'd be grabbing em and chucking em on forward rather than backwards.

Blue Dog,
Very good posts.

So, you wouldn't tell Chipper to move his knee like Derek, for example.
If you had a kid that used a higher leg kick you would look for the proper "shift", "launch", etc rather than attempt to take that away from him?



Said another way;
Refine their movements rather than take away the way THEY go about developing momentum, striding, etc.
Help them with the efficiency of their pattern?
Which may whittle down poor movement---OR a little movement could be added to a "static starter"?
(Which I think goes along with Quincy's point)

quote:

If so, it teaches that the weight of a moving mass is easier to handle than a mass at rest.

Could you imagine how good, say, a Ken Griffey Jr. could have been had someone got ahold of him and cured him of that horrific arm bar?

How about Ryan Howard and that back elbow?
Jeff Kent could benefit from that technique.

And for crying out loud why would someone let that Pujols guy have his hands that high?

And Jim Edmonds will never make it to the big leagues if he doesn't get rid of that huge uppercut.
Never.

All said in jest.

What is hard to convey is that once the hands have reached their lowest point in the swing, the bat becomes almost weightless as it travels in a circular motion.

Hands to the ball with the gravity assist.

As with a park swing, we give force to the down stroke to gain power in the up stroke. In the upswing, the swing is defying gravity via string tension with no additional input from the swing pusher. It speeds up to rise until gravity catches it.

The same principle applies in the baseball swing. After extension, the bat head will gain speed due to string tension causing the circular motion.

quote:

Help them with the efficiency of their pattern?

Clifton, yes indeed...

A hitter may have a perfectly fine pattern, but he may not time it properly....He may be stopping his momentum by loading his hands a little too early....Teach him to load his hands a little later and give him back his momentum....

Just like a pitcher may break his hands a little early....This has nothing to do with his overall pattern....He just needs to take the ball out of the glove a little later........

These Coaches who run up to a kid the first time they ever see him and tell him where to start with his hands and what stance he should use are messing kids up....And, when that Coach isn't around another Coach changes it yet again....I get tired of watching it....

Makes you wonder how any player makes it to MLB....

From John Doyle,

Similar Joint Movements, Not Exact - This may be the biggest rule broken when it comes to baseball exercises. Don't try and replicate a throwing motion or swinging motion with an object a lot heavier than your game-used equipment. For example, if you use a 30 ounce bat, don't swing a 45-60 ounce bat thinking it will make you a better hitter.

In fact, it will make you worse. Studies prove that any implement over 15% heavier or lighter than your normal piece of equipment will alter your mechanics significantly. If you swing a heavy bat you're practicing a different swing! Same goes with throwing a ball. Drop the weighted balls. It's too much of an injury risk and virtually impossible to maintain your mechanics when you use them.

Same goes in the weight room. Don't use a baseball exercise that tries to mimic a specific movement on the field. This is NOT baseball-specific and stems from the brains (or lack there of) of idiot strength coaches who have no clue what they're doing and, most likely, have never worked with a real athlete in their life. Or in other words they are an Internet Hero. Be wary, they are everywhere trying to steal your money.

Stick to these five basic rules and you will eliminate most, if not all of the terrible exercises floating around the Internet. And you will have a program comprising of many very good baseball exercises to help you become the best possible player you can be!

quote:

Originally posted by LClifton:
Could you imagine how good, say, a Ken Griffey Jr. could have been had someone got ahold of him and cured him of that horrific arm bar?

How about Ryan Howard and that back elbow?
Jeff Kent could benefit from that technique.

And for crying out loud why would someone let that Pujols guy have his hands that high?

And Jim Edmonds will never make it to the big leagues if he doesn't get rid of that huge uppercut.
Never.

All said in jest.

Ah yes my old comrade, but I would say regardless of their style, with all of these guys the as barrel is going into the arc down and around that back shoulder the rear hip is firing.

quote:

Ah yes my old comrade, but I would say regardless of their style, with all of these guys the as barrel is going into the arc down and around that back shoulder the rear hip is firing.

BlueDog,LClifton,CoachB25,

THERE YOU GO JELLY ROLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

could this be from camp, Richard?

quote:

Originally posted by Old School79:
could this be from camp, Richard?

Camp Video.

Incidentally I agree with the premise of the thread started by Bluedog. The pattern is always similar, but how they get there is not.

quote:

Originally posted by Pronk:
rear hip is firing.

I believe the rear hip is following not firing imo

quote:

.....the rear hip is firing.

Yes, it is....

The glutes control the core....And, the hips are the glutes...

The glutes push/pull....The front hip is pulling forward and the back hip is pushing.......Then, the abs push/pull as they are controlled by the glutes....The lower abs push and the upper abs pull backward......This happens almost simultaneously, but, the glutes are in control, so the back hip moves slightly sooner......The glutes and abs working together are the first of two power producers, or as they have properly been called, engines....

As all this is happening, the hands and arms are lowering and stretching to find the swing plane...There is no "GO" just yet....When "GO" is reached, the hands take over and supply the second power producer, or engine....

quote:

Originally posted by Old School79:

quote:

Ah yes my old comrade, but I would say regardless of their style, with all of these guys the as barrel is going into the arc down and around that back shoulder the rear hip is firing.

BlueDog,LClifton,CoachB25,

THERE YOU GO JELLY ROLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

??? What??? I believe that the bat is linked to the shoulders in connection for "frames" of video count in a swing. Where have you seen me state anything otherwise? I'm not a hands guy. I don't teach hands other than a method of getting the hands into that area of connection. I don't teach throw the hands at the ball since I believe it to be a dangerous cue where players are taught to disconnect. I believe that hitters adjust via tilt etc. No one I know states that on every pitch on every plane that a hitter maintains absolute connection. Regarding the bat path, I believe the reason Bonds is so good is that he can get his hands into connection and then has an amazing ability to control disconnection.



Pronk, Old school, et. al, when discussing your opinions on the swing, what video analysis tool do you use? I have Right View Pro (RVP) and find it very revealing. We analyzed my players with it and I do my daughter and her team. Just curious.

CoachB25, I don't compare swings of hitters up next to other players.....

I'm looking for momentum, stretch and weight shift....There is more than one pattern to accomplish these things....I see several different patterns in MLB hitters....

I do show the pattern I use in my swing....But, only to show what momentum, stretch and weight shift looks like....

Yes, I understand that. You are probably aware of what picture I posted and why as well.

quote:

I believe the reason Bonds is so good is that he can get his hands into connection and then has an amazing ability to control disconnection.

And maybe the JUICE, helps him just a little.

My guy tries to keep his hands in sync with his back hip as it fires forward, linking the two to get the most out of his momentum. What do you guys think of that approach?

I don't use any analysis software. I do believe I have one upgrade of V1 Sports, but not the really expensive version.

My camera can take either 60 FPS or 30 FPS on an SD Card (no need to import and deinterlace) and I mix it up because there are so many good clips out there at either speed. It's important to use both speeds I think. It's so easy to use gifs for a side by sides I don't bother buying a special app.

Now I do think if I had a kid sitting at the PC with me it might be easier to link stuff up and use the mouse to drag back and forth through a sequence. It's a little smoother than using the arrow keys.

quote:

Originally posted by floridafan:
My guy tries to keep his hands in sync with his back hip as it fires forward, linking the two to get the most out of his momentum. What do you guys think of that approach?

Just my 2 cents , but I disagree, imo the back hip movement is the result of torso rotation and does not power the swing. Thats why the back heel is lifted By the swing. But as noted earlier, BlueD disagrees with this.

quote:

Originally posted by Old School79:
And maybe the JUICE, helps him just a little.

Or a LOT

quote:

.....imo the back hip movement is the result of torso rotation and does not power the swing.

Torso rotation is powered somehow....There has to be a source of power...PCR people seem to believe the source is the pelvic muscles....I believe the power source is the glute muscles with the pelvic muscles being very important as they create and hold stretch.....

I don't believe learning to rotate is where it's at....I believe stretch and weight shift is where it's at....

quote:

Originally posted by floridafan:
My guy tries to keep his hands in sync with his back hip as it fires forward, linking the two to get the most out of his momentum. What do you guys think of that approach?

I like it.
Seeing your son's swing a while back would indicate to me he does it pretty darn good.

quote:

Pronk; Ah yes my old comrade, but I would say regardless of their style, with all of these guys the as barrel is going into the arc down and around that back shoulder the rear hip is firing.

O.k., Good point.
Here's some additional thoughts,(although I think Blue Dog's initial post really says it all);

Hitters go about "gathering" themselves differently.
Initial movement has similar traits but different "looks".

Real life Examples;
I have an 11 yr old that does a "step back" (tap back) before striding forward.
Another kid has a higher knee.
Another simply moves out / strides while "hovering" the stride foot just above the ground.

These "traits" were developed by demonstrating basic movements and then the kids interpretation manifested itself in 3 different ways to "gather" themselves for the oncoming quick move.
Make sense?

Edited to add:
I guess I was referring to the movement prior to / leading up to launch and that many times instructors will try to change that hitter's way of going about creating momentum /stretch/ by having them do it ONE WAY, which can affect the way they ultimately arc and fire.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Torso rotation is powered somehow..

I believe the torso is powered by the abdominals after hip shoulder seperation ( stretch ). Then continued rotation of the hips is just following the torso.

There was a time when I believed that, also....

Then, I learned the upper abs are controlled by the glutes....

When you see the back hip fire, the glutes are firing....The hands hold back the upper abs for a slight bit creating that last bit of stretch.......Then, the hands release the upper abs and assist with power themselves....

The way I see it, anyway...Not that I know....

I agree Lclifton that making giant changes is not where you want to go. Though I am forced to admit if I see a kid with the lead upper arm out and away from the body, I might put them through a drill to show that they will get there at some point but starting there I don't like too much. I wouldn't want to change back elbow height too much either so I agree with Bluedog too.

If there is a minor adjustment such as delaying load a little (just an example) we might try it out.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
The way I see it, anyway..

I'll have to keep an eye on it next time Im at the cages.

Bluedog

You background to offer this "knowledge" of the body and how it works?

I doubt you will give it