Best SS

Mike - good topic.

Derek Jeter has five rings and has earned each one of them imho. An all-time great baseball player - regardless of position. He gets best all-around in my book for his leadership qualities and clutch play. Oops, almost forgot, Robin Yount is also in this discussion.

Best hitting is a tough one. I'll go with Cal Ripken but of course Jeter is in that discussion. There are some up and comers like Tulo who are going to make this conversation very interesting in a few years.

Best defensive is easy for me. I know there are tons of Ozzie Smith fans out there and I'll never convince them but Omar Visquel is the greatest defensive shortstop without doubt in my mind. He single-handedly upgraded any pitching staff he was a part of. I have obviously never seen Honus Wagner or the like so perhaps I am only really commenting from the late 60's on.

The Jeter argument is old. Anyone who puts Jeter far down the list has absolutely no clue about baseball, who's opinion is worth squat and not even worth debate. Jeter's body of work speaks for itself and to try and justify his place among the all-time greats is pointless.

He was just a little before my time, but I would think that Ernie Banks would be at or near the Top for Shortstops that can hit?

I would think that CD is a little biased with Omar playing in his backyard most of his career ...I watched Ozzie coming up with San Diego before he was traded for Templeton and lean towards him, however it's hard to argue against Visquel.

When it comes to Rings, you can't argue with Jeter. Heck, we live on the west coast, and my kids still named our dog after him...and we're not Yankee fans!

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
He was just a little before my time, but I would think that Ernie Banks would be at or near the Top for Shortstops that can hit?

I would think that CD is a little biased with Omar playing in his backyard most of his career ...I watched Ozzie coming up with San Diego before he was traded for Templeton and lean towards him, however it's hard to argue against Visquel.

When it comes to Rings, you can't argue with Jeter. Heck, we live on the west coast, and my kids still named our dog after him...and we're not Yankee fans!

Ernie Banks is a great one no doubt. Unfortunately, I have never seen him play so he didn't come to my mind like he ought to have.

Trying to argue between Omar and Ozzie is pointless as well. It's like arguing which flavor of ice cream is better.

As best all around SS I have to go with Jeter

Best defensive SS I have seen you have to include Aparicio and Carrasquel with Ozzie

Nomar has to be among the best hitting shortsops

There was also a guy in St Louis way back when by the name of Marty Marion

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Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
He was just a little before my time, but I would think that Ernie Banks would be at or near the Top for Shortstops that can hit?

I would think that CD is a little biased with Omar playing in his backyard most of his career ...I watched Ozzie coming up with San Diego before he was traded for Templeton and lean towards him, however it's hard to argue against Visquel.

When it comes to Rings, you can't argue with Jeter. Heck, we live on the west coast, and my kids still named our dog after him...and we're not Yankee fans!

Ernie Banks is a great one no doubt. Unfortunately, I have never seen him play so he didn't come to my mind like he ought to have.

Trying to argue between Omar and Ozzie is pointless as well. It's like arguing which flavor of ice cream is better.

I'll do a few comparisons between Omar and Ozzie anyways. Offensively they are similar although Omar has a slightly higher ops 693 versus 665.

Defensively -

Omar - Career - .985 fielding percentage on 7623 assists, 183 errors in 21 seasons.

Ozzie - Career - .978 fielding percentage on 8375 assists, 276 errors in 19 seasons.

Now I can see what people are going to say but not so fast. You are going to argue that Ozzie had more range because he had more assists. Perhaps but I argue Ozzie saw a lot more bround balls in his career due to playing in the National League and facing a pitcher once every 9 at bats. Always an interesting discussion.

Best all around: Alex Rodriguez (1)
Best defensive: Omar Vizquel (2)
Best hitting: Alex Rodriguez, Honus Wagner (3)

(1) ARod redefined the position being a power hitter. I got so used to hearing ARod I had brain lock and had to look up his first name.

(2) I lived in San Diego when Ozzie Smith played there. I thought he dove for balls he could have played on his feet to look good. When Templeton first got to San Diego I thought is was an upgrade. Then his career went to hell. Templeton was smooth. He got balls on his feet I thought Smith dove for.

(3) It's hard to compare eras when not seeing one play.

Jeter is not the best at any one talent. He's a great heads up, instinctive player who wins. What if Cal Ripken or Robin Yount had played for the Yankees?

TWO MORE CATEGORIES:

Biggest overachiever: David Eckstein with honorable mention to Fred Patek
Biggest underachiever: Garry Templeton

RJM - should Jimmie Rollins be getting some votes in one of these categories?

I forgot about A-Rod but with his recent steroid problems, he is disqualified from the discussion imho.

Rollins is a winner. I'm not sure he's an overachiever based on his size. He's incredibly strong. ANOTHER CATEGORY could be ...

Best arm: Jimmy Rollins has a cannon. So did Chris Speier.

Overlooked glove stud: Mark Belanger

ANOTHER CATEGORY:

Most fiesty shortstop: Larry Bowa, Rick Burleson

One of my favorite plays by a ss was by Jeter during the playoffs. The right fielder was throwing home missed the cut and Jeter fielded the ball on the first base line and shoveled it to the catcher to get I think Giambi when he was with the A's.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Best all around: Alex Rodriguez (1)
Best defensive: Omar Vizquel (2)
Best hitting: Alex Rodriguez, Honus Wagner (3)

(1) ARod redefined the position being a power hitter. I got so used to hearing ARod I had brain lock and had to look up his first name.

(2) I lived in San Diego when Ozzie Smith played there. I thought he dove for balls he could have played on his feet to look good. When Templeton first got to San Diego I thought is was an upgrade. Then his career went to hell. Templeton was smooth. He got balls on his feet I thought Smith dove for.

(3) It's hard to compare eras when not seeing one play.

Jeter is not the best at any one talent. He's a great heads up, instinctive player who wins. What if Cal Ripken or Robin Yount had played for the Yankees?

TWO MORE CATEGORIES:

Biggest overachiever: David Eckstein with honorable mention to Fred Patek
Biggest underachiever: Garry Templeton

I would have A-Rod at the top of my list too, however, the fact that he's admitted to taking PED's and is currently playing the Hot Corner changed my thinking on that (don't get me wrong, I still think he's an amazing talent!). Statistically, Honus Wagner is a great choice, but again, he's way before my time, and like you said...it's hard to compare eras if you weren't able to see them play. Cal Ripken IMO, redefined the SS position as a Big (tall) player with some pop that played decent defense. And I agree, if Cal was a Yankee, his status in the baseball world would be even higher than it is now.

I love your Achiever Categories. Eckstein & Patek are great examples. As far as Templeton goes, I was excited for the Padres when they initially made that trade. Templeton was a stud from both sides of the plate, but he faded really fast. I think his style was more suited for the turf.

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As far as Templeton goes, I was excited for the Padres when they initially made that trade. Templeton was a stud from both sides of the plate, but he faded really fast. I think his style was more suited for the turf.

Did you ever see the "Smooth Operator" video on Templeton at the SD Sports HOF? It was back when he first came to the Padres.

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Originally posted by RJM:

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As far as Templeton goes, I was excited for the Padres when they initially made that trade. Templeton was a stud from both sides of the plate, but he faded really fast. I think his style was more suited for the turf.

Did you ever see the "Smooth Operator" video on Templeton at the SD Sports HOF? It was back when he first came to the Padres.

unfortunately I didn't see that video on Templeton. He probably had four of the five tools, only lacking in power.

I grew up in St Louis...no one was better Defensive than The OZ....later in his career he developed some power and actaully hit a few home runs....you don't think ..not going there.

quote:

Originally posted by 2bagger:
One of my favorite plays by a ss was by Jeter during the playoffs. The right fielder was throwing home missed the cut and Jeter fielded the ball on the first base line and shoveled it to the catcher to get I think Giambi when he was with the A's.

Maybe you never saw this play but this is in part of what makes Jeter who he is. Any fan of a hard-nosed player with little regard for his body and who's driven by winning would appreciate this play he made:

Jeter catch.Momentum has him diving in stands

Yes I saw that one and another one similar as he raced past the third baseman during a playoff game and made the catch going into the stands. Would love to watch all players play like he does. Thanks for the video.

ClevelandDad,
I only mean for this to be a friendly disagreement but Fielding percentage is a stat for dinosaurs and does not in anyway show who was a better defensive shortstop. There have been "statues" that played positions in the Majors that easily had the best fielding % but that is because they couldn't get to plays that even an average fielder could. According to most of the newest defensive parameters established in the Fielding Bible and other sabermatic publications, Visquel was not the match of Ozzie defensively. His range factors were not as good and after all what is more improtant than the ability to get balls no one else can.
I don't know what correlation having a pitcher bat has with Ozzy's overall chances since if anything pitchers strike out much more often than other players of any type. If anything that cut down his chances.
Ernie Banks is a good example of a SS who had good fielding percentages and a long errorless streak but was actually a below average SS who did not make the number of plays an elite SS does.

My analysis could be wrong but range factor does not explain everything unless I am missing something. You are making the assumption they both had the same number of ground balls to get to and range was the "only" variable to explain the assist discrepancy. If one guy played in a system where the pitchers were known more for flyouts and strikeouts, he is going to get less chances regardless of his range. I could be wrong but it seems the American League style of play is more based on power and putting the ball in the air. If you got a stat that will prove that assumption wrong then so be it. I've seen Omar play most of his career and he had wonderful range. I admit though that Ozzie has a pretty sizable lead in assists so maybe range does explain it but I would like to see more statistical evidence than range factor to prove that.

Unfortunitely, I'll have to get back on this subject tomorrow after our doubleheader as I've got to go to bed but this is an interesting comparison. Don't get me wrong, I thing Omar is a tremendous SS certainly the best at charging and barehanding hoppersthat I've seen. If I get time tomorrow I'll get some stats to make my case.
I've also got some thoughts on the top hitting SS's of all time with one that in consecutive years knocked in 137, 144, and 159 RBI's in modern times and is virtually forgotten.

Here is my list:

Best Fieding SS: Omar Visquel
Best Hitting: A-Rod (if you knock him down because of PED's) then Cal Ripken (although I think by the end of it all Hanley Ramirez will be up there)
Best Arm: Shawon Dunstan
Best Durability: Cal Ripken
Best Leader: Lou Boudreau (won Cleveland's last WS as a player manager)
Best Overall: A-Rod/Ripken

Currently

Fielding: Asdrubal Cabrerra
Hitting: Hanley Ramirez
Arm: Rafael Furcal
Durability: ?
Leader: Jeter
Overall: Hanley Ramirez

I put Omar at the top because I'm an Indians fan but I acknowledge Ozzie's glove ability. Omar's

Most fun to watch in his prime:

Nomar