Bite Your Tongue?

By my count that's 110 pitches within 3 days. Idk this is a tough call, but my feeling is that he shouldn't be throwing so much this early in the season, especially if it's JV. And if he just started throwing just two weeks ago, then by no means should he be expected to have enough stamina to have that big of a work load in March.

So what does he do Ball4Life? Never had a kid who was a high school pitcher, so I have no advice on this one. Have a chat with the coach, tell son to have a chat? My gut is that someone has to say something - maybe ask him what his personal philosophy is on pitch counts and days rest?

Anybody?

I have always said one thing. If you are going to pitch my son, get what you can out of him, he is done for the next week. I also get ****y if the pitch count gets over 70.

It is 14U, but why risk anything over a meaningless game. Have your son talk to the coach, if that doesn't work, break the cardinal rule and TELL the coach.

No victory is worth surgery.

I do not agree with your son throwing back to back games. At that age, the coach should be developing more pitchers for the varsity. On the other hand, I don't believe that playing basketball is an excuse for not throwing bullpens until mid March. Did the baseball season catch you by surprise? As he gets older your son will need to find a way to get some bullpens in during the week and on Sundays so that he is not reaching peek form in May.

Cowboyfan...always remember that your son's health and well-being is paramount nomatter what this moron might think, say, or do. Your son is obviously very talented but will never reach his potential being abused in this manner...and I do mean abused. I would make it very clear to this coach that you will not stand for this any longer. Bite your tongue now and you'll undoubtedly regret it in the future...most likely in a surgeon's office.

Don't bite that tongue, have a talk with the coach.

After 78 pitches he's WAY done, that arm is in recovery mode after his start for 8 days a week. He only started throwing a couple of weeks ago?Jeez, 78's pretty high for a 15 year old arm not in shape.

RRF8 is correct, he's got to find time to throw, especially if he's a primary pitcher.


Most seniors, with a sensible coach and arms that are in shape, will limit early season, cold weather starts to around 65-70 or so. Bend that coaches ear, be nice. Grab his nose if he looks at you funny..ask him,"ain't you got no ears?"

But, if he's looking for an old chicken winger to drop into the staff, I'm up for it if he can tolerate a foul mouth and a mustache with a three foot wingspan and some scrambled egg garnish. Hide the women though cause I'm easy on the eyes, as long as they're closed.

quote:

Originally posted by cowboyfan:
Am I being over zelous in my anger about this? I just don't see this at most levels hs and up except maybe postseason regional/sectionals.

Did you ask your son why he was pitching?

JV coaches are usually good about asking kids how their arm is and bad about believing them when they say it is fine.

Was it a close game? How are the other pitchers on the staff?

My advice, get together with your son so you are both aware of what is "healthy" ... his arm, your blood pressure.

I understand your concern and its legitimate. I would first have your son talk to the coach about his role on the team and during that conversation have him bring up that his arm is not fully developed yet and needs some rest between outings. The conversation will be a good opportunity for your son to handle his relationship with his coach himself which is how everyone wants it to be handled. However if the problem continues after the conversation, your son's health trumps everything, so at that time as a dad I would have a conversation with the coach myself.

Personally I went through a similar experience last year. Son is ss/ closer on varsity and after pitching one game was playing ss and warming up to close next game and his arm was obviously affected. Finally I sent coach an email advising him that son, in spite of his desire to help team win, needed some help communicating with the coach when his arm was tired and asked him to help him out in this area. This year he is DH some games after pitching and that situation is behind us. Good luck.

According to Drs. Andrews & Fleisig, the minimum amount of rest required for a pitcher who is in prime pitching condition after 78 pitches is 4 days. Your son is not in that shape and is not physically mature.

Injuries occur when the mechanics break down. These breakdowns are very slight and caused by fatigue. Even though the pitcher feels like he could go further, the body is done.

How you handle it diplomatically is up to you, but it should probably be handled before your son ever takes the mound again.

Dr. Fleisigs recommended pitch counts for 9 - 14 year olds

If you search the asmi forums, you'll find much about arm health relative to your situation.

I agree with IG. Start by having your son speak with the coach. A simple "My arm was really sore after I pitched that second game. Maybe we should give it some more rest next time." Then teach your son what rest he should be getting so that if the coach asks him again if he can close after pitching extended innings a few days earlier, he can simply say no.

If the coach does not accept this, or gets upset that he won't take the ball. Then you should contact him with your concern. Perhaps it is a case where a coach literally does not know how much rest they should be getting.

It could be a really good learning experience in advocacy for your son. It could also help him understand that just because his arm feels ok, it doesn't mean that he should go pitch. It took a labrum surgery at 20 years old to teach me that lesson.

Dr. G Flesig is the man.

You want to know why so many kids have arm problems--it is because they are not throwing ENOUGH. I am not talking about in a week, i am talking about from when they are young. To see an eight year old with an ice pack on is ridiculous. The arms are babied and therefore tender.

To be honest, I think your coach was out of line, but the solution to the problem does not lie in the patterns of his pitching philosopohy, but rather that we baby kids that do not need to be babied.

quote:

You want to know why so many kids have arm problems--it is because they are not throwing ENOUGH. I am not talking about in a week, i am talking about from when they are young. To see an eight year old with an ice pack on is ridiculous. The arms are babied and therefore tender.

Agreed 1000000000% absolutely!

As an old codger this thread seems super comical. If If I may remember back to my glory days on the mound in high school during the mid 70's the story would go something like this. Would get home on a Saturday night after throwing both ends of the double dip during the afternoon only to have my late dad ask how I did since he was on the tractor all afternoon. I would say we won both games and I actually struck out big hoss Charlie twice from the next county over! He would say threw 'em the old dark one I showed ya did ya!! Well sounds like ya had fun now the old tractor out back needs the oil changed it ain't going to do itself and grandma needs help hanging the wash on the line out back before you go to sleep. I wonder if he knew I should be working the theraband, post game med ball work, needed a cool down, and doing post game analyzation of my 13 inning performance. I wonder if it ever crossed his mind to call my coach Uncle Art a moron for deeming me as the pitcher in most games. Or I wonder if it ever crossed his mind to ask how many pitches I actually threw? I have never once had any arm problems except the time I fell off the roof cleaning the gutters in the spring and jammed my shoulder and had to take a session off of slow pitch softball.

It's not super comical. Rip, you have been blessed with a tough arm. there are a lot of kids out there who have genuine arm problems. Seen way to many go under the bright light at 15. Some guys have a physical make up that gives them durable limbs. Look at all the knee problems in the wide world of sports. Arms aren't much different when your whipping that thing around trying to get big Hoss to sit back down.

I know what you're saying, my arm is still pretty tough, I always felt like I could throw all day long, still do and I'm 50 something. Most arms aren't like that though.

What you said about not throwing enough is true, kids should throw a lot and do it properly to build strength and mechanics. ie: long toss and an appropriate amount of bullpen work, etc..mostly strength and repetitive motion work to get and keep that thing in shape

The kid in question in this thread has only been throwing for a couple of weeks before his first appearance as a starter, not near enough to get a pitchers arm ready.

Your words are a bit ironic. Like you said, this kid hasn't been throwing enough

God bless your arm and your Borat t-shirt!!

Has anyone else heard/read about or seen the "revised" grip that Mike Marshall advocates? Essentially, you grab the ball underneath so your wrist is up so it and the fingertips are pointed at you - apparently it eliminates the bounce that occurs in your arm. This bounce is allegedly the culprit in many arm injuries.

Yeah, I have heard of that grip. Its called the fast pitch softball grip. Jenny Finch probably could teach you that grip really well.

quote:

Originally posted by Ratboy:
Was it a close game? How are the other pitchers on the staff?

What difference does it make how close the game was or how the other pitchers on staff are? Last time I checked no 15U kid has ever signed a NLI or Pro Contract off of the HS JV team.

Think about the kid's future and not a meaningless game at 15. Take a stand with the coach NOW or take a chance on watching your son's future fade away.

Having a very similar discussion/disagreement on the pitching and throwing forum. Some coaches are simply idiots and should not be allowed on the field. "Go out there and get me another W kid. I really don't care if you cant wipe your ??? because your arm hurts....GET MY "W"

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Last time I checked no 15U kid has ever signed a NLI or Pro Contract off of the HS JV team.

They gotta get to varsity before they can do that. Varsity is not just a given.

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Think about the kid's future and not a meaningless game at 15

So tell me all knowing, when does a game become "meaningful"? 18, 25, 50?

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Some coaches are simply idiots and should not be allowed on the field.

Most parents shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the field. How's that sound?

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

quote:

Last time I checked no 15U kid has ever signed a NLI or Pro Contract off of the HS JV team.

They gotta get to varsity before they can do that. Varsity is not just a given.

Really, did you figure that out all on your own? Sarcasm, try looking up the meaning BD.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

quote:

Think about the kid's future and not a meaningless game at 15

So tell me all knowing, when does a game become "meaningful"? 18, 25, 50?

You tell me? They are all meaningful to a degree, but it’s not worth taking a chance on ending a career before it has a chance to really get started. 15 is way to you to take a chance with a coach who would abuse a kids arm.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

quote:

Some coaches are simply idiots and should not be allowed on the field.

Most parents shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the field. How's that sound?

That sounds like someone who isn’t a parent. I just looked at your profile. I’m sorry, I though I was debating with an adult or coach or someone who had a little more life experience. BD19, Finish growing up, graduate for college, have a couple kids of your own and then come back and post after you’ve been on both sides of the fence. You may find that your views will change...........

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BD19, Finish growing up, graduate for college, have a couple kids of your own and then come back and post after you’ve been on both sides of the fence. You may find that your views will change...........

Oh I'm sorry my 15 years of baseball experience isn't good enough for you. With most of that experience being in the dugout of a high school team learning the ins and outs of baseball. Also, I have done some coaching both at a grade school level and at a high school level. To add to that, I also have experience assisting with the healthcare of collegiate athletes. But don't worry-- I have no experience whatsoever so my opinion means nothing.

STOP

That's enough you two. You have points to make, and are welcome to them, but if you want any future posts to stand they will be made in a respectful manner. You may disagree feverishly if you wish, but the nonsense stops now.

CPLZ
IL Forum moderator

CPLZ, BD19 is never wrong. When he is, he probably self-flagellates. Throw some pepper on that wood.

CPLZ - point taken and I apologize to you and to those who feel we've been disrespectful with our disagreement.

BD19, you are entitled to you opinion and I'll take my 40+ years of playing/coaching/supporting/parenting and continue to see things my way and not take a chance on jeopardizing a player’s future by overuse from high pitch counts. Right or Wrong

cowboyfan, talk to the coach........IMHO

quote:

Originally posted by sportsfan5:

quote:

Originally posted by Ratboy:
Was it a close game? How are the other pitchers on the staff?

What difference does it make how close the game was or how the other pitchers on staff are? Last time I checked no 15U kid has ever signed a NLI or Pro Contract off of the HS JV team.

Think about the kid's future and not a meaningless game at 15. Take a stand with the coach NOW or take a chance on watching your son's future fade away.

Having a very similar discussion/disagreement on the pitching and throwing forum. Some coaches are simply idiots and should not be allowed on the field. "Go out there and get me another W kid. I really don't care if you cant wipe your ??? because your arm hurts....GET MY "W"

You assume that the kid said "Ouch - my arm is killing me and I can't go on" ... my intent was to say "Well, we need 2 outs and the other kids that can throw can't get it done today (maybe they have already thrown, too) or there isn't a bullpen to speak of."

Read my post - I said to talk to the son because maybe the coach asked him how his arm felt.

I've seen kids tell the coach - if you need 3 outs, I can throw and I've seen parents say "Billy has to pitch on Friday and he won't say anything, so could you try not to keep him in more than 1 inning if you need him and not let him catch at all today"

Why is it that there is a mob mentality around here that assumes JV coaches are idiots that sprinkle wood chips in the puke all day and "coach" baseball for beer money?

In your 40 years close to the game, you have seen the pitcher's durability decrease and the occurance of arm trouble increase.

And, as for the rest of my original questions:

If it is a close game and the pitcher can get the last outs for a win -- are you, as a parent, going to give a standing O to the coach when he yanks the pitcher and puts in Joe Smith knowing that Joe will walk home the winning run?

quote:

If it is a close game and the pitcher can get the last outs for a win -- are you, as a parent, going to give a standing O to the coach when he yanks the pitcher and puts in Joe Smith knowing that Joe will walk home the winning run?

Ratboy -

I certainly would. It shows that the coach puts the well being and the future of a student/athlete before that of a game victory. If the pitcher in question can't play later in the season due to overuse, it will cost the coach more than just one game potentially if his best pitcher is out of commission. So what if the team loses this one game? This is baseball, not a cure for cancer or the key to world peace.

If it is a close game and the pitcher can get the last outs for a win -- are you, as a parent, going to give a standing O to the coach when he yanks the pitcher and puts in Joe Smith knowing that Joe will walk home the winning run?[/QUOTE]

Would not bother me at all. jmho

Can anyone prove with complete certainty that players hurt their arms to pitching too often? In other words, there is absolutely no other reason that they could be hurting their arms. I'd be interesting in seeing the research..

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
Can anyone prove with complete certainty that players hurt their arms to pitching too often? In other words, there is absolutely no other reason that they could be hurting their arms. I'd be interesting in seeing the research..

If you would like a genuine answer to your question, right from the people that do the hands on research, I would suggest you visit the American Sports Medicine Forum and ask that question there.

I think it is better to err on the side of caution. Having said that though I will say that many of the all-time greats (Ryan, Koufax, etc.) in part blame some of the arm problems on the fact kids do not throw enough. I'm not sure when MLB went to the 5 man rotation but it was common practice to throw every 4th day when we were growing up and also hurl a complete game.
I'm not sure we have all the answers but some of the caution comes as a result of the dollars thrown at athletes today. Need to protect that investment.
Think of Dice-K when he came to the Red SOx. Everyone looked on in horror and disbelief at how much he was throwing, yet he never had arm problems (until they trained him the "American Way. AFter this they had to shut him down for a spell. However, as the father of a pticher, I err to caution as well. I'm sure in the near future we'll see 6 man rotations and guys only making it through the 5th inning.
Look how oten managers turn to relievers versus starters.

IMO the kids I know throw more now than when I was a kid and player. I am not talking about more pitching but they do more throwing, long toss weighted balls and so on. As far as Ryan and Koufax, yes two of my favorites they seem like opposites when it comes to how there arms held up back in there day. I just feel there is a big difference between throwing a lot and being over pitched.

Two things strike me as relevant....

1. It's tough to cross eras when talking about use. Pitchers who knew they were in for the duration were not gassing it up there in the 4th inning like they are today. They paced themselves for the marathon, rather than the all out effort until you drop mentality of today.

2. Using exceptions to the rule, doesn't prove the rule. There are just a handful of guys like Ryan, Seaver, etc.

Learning your pitching limits is somewhat like learning your risk tolerance for investing. You don't know what it is most times, until you've exceeded it and then you know you've gone to far.

The eras are totally different. Kids are playing way way more baseball than they were back then. With the explosion of travel baseball, longer local league summer seasons etc, and, for sure, more practices. The amount of baseball being played by kids during their growing years doesn't remotely compare to how it was years ago. Plus, these travel teams work out in the winter pretty regular.

D-K could be meeting his maker..the result of throwing 140 pitches and then going out and tossing another game in the same day..one will never know.

He also could be doing something that many pitchers do when they face tougher hitters as they progress through the system..trying to tweak things, give it something extra..more movement or a notch more velocity. Pitchers, moving up the ladder, do this stuff all the time and it can make a huge difference to a joint that is used to a particular type of repetetive motion and stress. usually those twqeaks come from the smaller baody parts..ie, the arm and joints of the arm itself and the smaller muscles.

Much easier and more tempting to make these sorts of tweaks using the arm, wrist shoulder than it is to get your larger muscles and body into the act because of the rhythm and tempo etc adjustment required...which affects the entire wind-up attitude. Wind up etc....Probably the most difficult adjustment for a pitcher to make in trying to gain that little extra.

Whatever, it's not an answer that can be nailed.

On the other side of this issue. Freshman son is one of 12 pitchers on team. All 12 have gotten some action. The pitchers are not getting a lot of bullpen time during practice. I'm ready to get the bucket out, but how much time/pitches in a bullpen session. He plays first so he gets a lot of throws in.

Thanks for all the great advice. Son spoke briefly with coach. Although he will likely continue to have philosophy of over-pitching young pitchers (that's my opinion anyway), appears my son will be on a more normal (and healthy) rotation. And while my tongue is a bit sore from biting, your advice to let son handle this himself I think was for the best.