Bonds & Clemens Who is Worse?

Interesting piece I read today from a Dr. on Web-MD

First off, Lidocane & Vioxx are prescription drugs so where did those come from. Lidocane is only to be administered at a Dr. office. OK, where did Clemens get this stuff? Why did he use it (illegal)?

The most interesting part is that Lidocane works similar to Novacane at the Dentist. It is a local pain killer & injecting it in your rear end would have the same affect as getting a novacane shot in the butt to numb your teeth. It would only numb your rear end. Interesting.

Finally, B-12 is commonly used to mask the effects of someone taking anabolic steroids. Wasn't Palmeiro aguing that he got a "bad test" becuase of tainted B-12 he got from Tejada???

The whole thing stinks and hopefully the real truth eventually comes out. I have to say, I am not impressed with how Clemens has handled this. If someone had taped me without telling me about it and then go play it at a news conference. Nice guy! Sounds desperate. He should have kept his mouth shut cause the more he opens it the bigger hole he digs. My kid had to pee in a cup three times last summer - at least I know HE is clean. (Doesn't take B-12 either!)

Any journalist knows they need to consider the source


McNamee is an emotionally unstable and mentally deranged individual. He is the desperate one. He will undoubtedly ink a large book deal in due time--funny how those things work out.

Bottom line--it is word against word and I shutter to think that this country has truly come to the point of condemning an individual based solely on an ACCUSATION with no real proof (especially from a source like McNamee)

By the way, I also shutter at the fact that Hillary may still run our country.

ballyall,

for the record I did qualify my remarks with an "if."

Of course if this were just an isolated accusation it would be much easier to believe Clemens, but we have heard so many of these guys deny, deny and deny more until the guilt was so obvious they could no longer.

It never looks good when one guy is forced to give up the goods on another to save his own skin and I have no sympathy for a guy like McNamee either. In his case though he can only get into serious trouble by lying and it would have been the easier course to deny it just like the players have.

As far as Hillary goes, I can't believe she is the one questioning others' experience. I also shudder to think about that possibility as well.

I Have to ask, where does this put Pete Rose? He did play the game the way it is supposed to be played.

I'm shuttering,wondering why you guys haven't been shuttering already after the last seven years.

the radar went up the year brady anderson hit some goofy number of homeruns. it will all playout and the important thing for those of us with HS kids to re-enforce the notion that in the long run it is the hard work and effort that will payoff for them-whatever direction life takes them.

Now, along with bosox, i was discussing the topic in the gym the other morning on who or what hurts baseball more- pete rose or the current freak fest. i say the freak fest.

I thought you might find this interesting. I was talking to a doctor friend of mine who said this.

Clemens claims he was injected with B12 and Lidocaine in the butt. There is no medical reason to put lidocaine in the butt making his story completely phony. I am not a doctor, but it sounded reasonable to me.

The comment/theory about Brady Anderson's inflated numbers can be compared to Clemens as well. In his four seasons prior to heading to Toronto between 1993-1996 he had an overall pitching record of
40-39. He goes on to win 41 games in two years with the Blue Jays. If you look at a timeline that's about the time he met and started working with McNamee.

I'm imagining we'll never know the truth. That's probably the biggest dissapointment of this steroid era, all the denying that takes place when obvious guilt is present. What a horrible example has been set for our young ballplayers across the country.

It was also mentioned that McNamee is an unreliable source, which may prove to be true with Clemens. I've listened to McNamee's conversation with Clemens and it was bizarre. However McNamee named two players (Pettite and Clemens) he injected with steroids and one turned out to be true. Why tell the truth about one and not the other? That one still has me baffled.

By the way did anybody think Clemens' taping of the phone conversation was laughable? Being a Seinfeld fan I had to remember when George Costanza left a tape recorder in his briefcase and then heard a loud noise when listening to it. He plays detective the rest of the episode to figure it out. Classic episode.

Isn't it ironic too, that Conseco was in Toronto w/ Clemens.

Anybody read his book? Any mention of Roger?

I'm only a kid, but is it a possibility that pitchers were the 1st ones to experiment with the drugs? and when they figured they were working for the pitchers, position players started to take them to keep up. Look at guys like Brian Roberts. Hes a small man, if there's pitchers on the stuff, the players have to keep up. If he wouldn't have done steriods or HGH or whatever is there the possibility that he is not putting food on the table this long? I'm not defending the players at all because it is a complete embarrassment to the sport (why dont they check out football? Speed? HGH? Steroids?), but what I'm saying is that this is a job to these guys a lot of them have been pro since they were 17 18 and the possibility of nothing much to fall back on. Tell me if I'm wrong, what would you do if you were behind on your job, playing the game you love, if you were constantly under the spotlight, and being paid to perform with someone behind you just as good?

Charlie Hustle is no worse than these guys to be sure.

Rose was and is a liar. He bet on baseball, a big taboo since the Black Sox. It destroys the credibility of the game.

The steroids guys also destroy the credibility of the game. They broke laws of the land, though not laws of baseball.

So Rose isn't worse then them. Is Gacy worse than Dahmer because he killed more people? Or is Dahmer worse because he ate his victims.

I use an extreme to make this point. What is your point? Rose is a creep and so are the steroids guys and they both damaged the sport. Should there be a punishment for doing the things they did. I think so. Not getting in the HOF is just fine with me.

Justifying cheating to make a living doesn't work for me either, BoSox24. That is like saying it is OK that you robbed a bank because you wanted your family to have a good life and you aren't capable of getting a good enough job on your own.

Ends should not justify the means. People need to live inside the law and the rules of society. If you don't, there should be consequences.

I Follow what you say bballdad, not to be a smart alack but they didnt kill anyone or hurt anyone but themselves. Yes I agree that they hurt the game, but just not making the HOF is not acceptable it's rather laughable, it's like a slap on the hand to these guys. They don't care, they have their money maid now their only plan is not to end up in jail(they have the money and lawyers for that). On my standards I think they all should be banned from baseball (just like Rose), but the thing about that is that theyr'e most likely more guys doing the stuff than the ones named. It probably starts in the minor league level (could that be where it all started? to make it to the next level). "People need to live inside the law and the rules of society. If you don't, there should be consequences." I agree that is the rule for the average person, for people with money, the law has its holes. a checkbook perhaps. Nothing is going to happen to Bonds or Clemens. I believe Clemens is digging himself a hole in his own lie. I am not surprised that he is defending himself in such a rash way. He's the same guy I watched at the Cell All-Star weekend walk around the field like he owned the joint, while all the guys are signing balls for kids down the sidelines. He's also the same guy I watched warm up in the bullpen during the game while dozens of children were over the wall begging him for his autograph and he said no. But in the meanwhile I was getting autographs from Barry Zito Mike Macdougal Roy Halladay CC Sabathia and Keith Foulke. Were any of those guys on the list? Nah their standup people. Clemens is a piece of work. Along with the rest of them. While I sat up against the bullpen and talked to Mike Macdougal for 3 innings talking about getting to the next level, hard work and training. A guy who a year earlier was getting his arm gutted for surgury, but hard work put him in the allstar game the next year. There's a story for you. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree

You are a bright young man. I don't know what penalties more than banning form the HOF could or should be. I doubt the ballplayers will ever be criminally held responsible. They'll get the trainers and other guys. You are correct that money can buy justice in this Country, just ask OJ.

If it started in the minor leagues, I don't think the Dad's on the board would be as upset. I know it goes to the high school. My son has been offered steroids by other baseall players (although not on his high school team). It is influencing young people to do wrong and affect their health that has Congress getting involved IMO.

Thank you I appreciate it, How old is your son? I'm 18 and I play for Billy Copp and I couldn't help but notice that your from the suburbs. I live on the southside and I have never been offered or even questioned about steroids, hence half of us don't have that kind of money to throw around for a Roger Clemen's "quick fix" even though I have heard of kids from the south suburbs that are suspected of use. To me seeing all this happen in baseball really angers me, what do guys like Derek Jeter A-Rod Konerko have to say,(lets not ask Schilling he might actually speak his mind) these guys have the world by the pills living in la la land playing a kids game and they turn into pukes? Cudos or however you say it to little turds like Dustin Pedroia, Eckstein, Vizquel etc to not listening to all the b.s. about people saying their too small not good enough I'm going through the same thing, I have all my college signings done, but yet I hear it from people who I'd like to call acquaintances. John Cangelosi knows what I'm talking about. "in one ear and out the other"

BoSox24-

Keep your head on the way it is now! Sometimes when you feel like you have to prove something to the Doubting Thomas of the world, you are going to get further in than than when something is handed to someone.

Coach Copp is a great coach who respects the game so you are in good company.

As for Clemens, let him did his hole. He obviously didn't take any PR or acting classes at Texas, did he?

I looked at innings pitched, games started and wins across three era's of Clemen's career:

1. 86-97 (Pre McNamee, didn't include his first two seasons 84 and 85 because they were anomolies, IPs and GSs not even close to 86-97).
2. 98-01 (Years McNamee claimed he injected Clemens with 'roids and HGH).
3. 02-05 (Post McNamee, didn't include 06 and 07 for the same reason as 84 and 85. Significantly less IPs and GSs because he came back during the middle of the season.

I ran a statistical analyis (ANOVA) on these three metrics IPs, GSs and Ws across these three Clemens eras.

The results of the three models determined that neither IPs, GSs or Ws were statistically different during this three eras of Clemens career. None of the three. It is amazing how similar these metrics are during these three eras.

Since these performance metrics didn't change during these three eras, I guess one would ask why these performance metrics didn't get worse as he got older. One could conclude that the greats have been able to sustain a similar level of performance throughout their careers. Certainly one could claim that the greatest could. And Clemens may simply be the greatest ever, or in that group of a few.

If anyone knows Rog, have him get in touch with me via a PM and I will send him the models; and he can provide them to Congress.

I'm a geek.

Peace,

ZZ.

Tuzi,

A very interesting statistical analysis on Clemen's career. Just for compairson, how do those same statistics compare, over the course of his career, to another fairly decent pitcher of our era who is most likely "clean", Nolan Ryan? That would be interesting to know how he faded toward the end of his pitching career. However, I realize that it probably took you quite a bit of work to enter all of the data into your computer for this analysis and may not be worth the time or effort to see the compairson. Just thought it might be interesting since he also had a killer workout schedule like Roger suppossedly had to keep in shape. Thanks for sharing your info Tuzi.

Before we annoint the ornery one to "the greatest" of all-time...please compare:

Walter Johnson
Ed Walsh
Christy Mathewson
Waite Hoyt
Bob Gibson
Steve Carlson
Nolan Ryan

With or without roids, he is NOT "the greatest"!

Pitcher, Years, Era Played, Wins (W), Games Started (GS), %W/GS

Mathewson, 17, 1900-1916, 373, 551, 67.7%
Walsh, 14, 1904-1917, 195, 315, 61.9%
Johnson, 21, 1907-1927, 417, 666, 62.6%
Hoyt, 21, 1918-1937, 237, 423, 56%
Gibson, 17, 1959-1975, 251, 482, 52.1%
Carlton, 24, 1965-1988, 329, 709, 46.4%
Ryan, 27, 1966-1993, 324, 773, 41.9%
Clemens, 23, 1984-2007, 354, 707, 50.1%

Pre-1920, Dead Ball Era
Pre-1956, Batters weren't mandated to wear helmets
Pre-1969, 15" Mound

OK Soxnole, based upon these stats, why wouldn't Clemens be considered the GREATEST of this group?

I would toss in Greg Maddux and compare him and Clemens to Gibson, Carlton & Ryan.

The stats for Maddux and Clemens are so comparable it is eerie.

Using Tuzi's measures (IP,GS,W) and adding ERA:
Maddux - 4814, 707, 347, 3.11
Clemens - 4916, 707, 354, 3.12

Here are the same for the most current of soxnole's "greatest":
Gibson - 3884, 528, 251, 2.91
Carlton - 5217, 709, 329, 3.22
Ryan - 5386, 773, 324, 3.19

While Maddog & Rocket don't have the innings of Lefty & Ryan, they have more wins and better ERA's. And Gibson trails in all but ERA.

Not a vote fer or agin Clemens, just how he stacks comparatively.

A Tuzi analysis on Maddux would be intriguing.

Maddux vs Clemens; didn't realize how close they are. Maddux......class act and another favorable arguement for control and movement versus speed.

Gentlemen, Outstanding thread. One thing and work with me here, I do believe that the owners,management and players acted alike in their belief that the use of performance enhancing substances was in the "best interest of baseball". For what other reason would they choose to look the other way. As a disclaimer please understand that I am not an advocate of any supplemental forms of substances, proper diet and appropriate periods of rest prove to be the best remedies. However, we (the public forum) have asked our athletes to perform at a level which pushes the realm of physical impossiblilities and they responded. Again, I am not an advocate of the use of any supplements. Much of the responses on the thread is our perspective, these athletes were revered and adorned with adulation and response until they were not the people we thought they were. We criticized Charles Barkley for stating "I am not a role model,I am paid to reek havoc on the basketball ourt", in reality these athletes have no obligation to the public but provide entertainment and that they did, at the highest levels I might add. To me if Clemens and Bonds are guilty of the use of steriods it states one blaring reality, when the best pitchers in the games and the best hitters in the games are using the performance enhancing drugs, the playing field was level.

I hear what you are saying playball2, but the concern that I have along with many of the people on this forum is I don't want my kid to think he needs to partake in this activity to compete. If this is deemed acceptable, it will continue to filter down to the high school level.

Ok tug, rocket is/was the greatest********

I agree, RRF8. But, it has been filtering down to the HS for a long, long time.

It's been 27 years since I walked out the door of my HS. There were a handful of guys using juice way back then, primarily football players (LB, OL, DL) getting bigger and looking for a ride to college. I cite Tony Mandarich & Brian Bosworth as examples of why Pete Rozelle and the NFL went to their test in the late 80's. This is nothing new.

My HS sophomore was crushed when the Mitchell report came out. He is a Yankee fan and has admired Clemens since those WS wins and for his longevity. We have talked about it. He sees the scorn those accused are facing. Maybe the shame and embarrassment of those accused, whether deemed guilty by the court of public opinion or the justice system, is a good thing in the long run.

All the kids have some level of talent/potential as people, in the class room, on the field. It is the education of the kids, parental vigilance and taking advantage of opportunities that will help them survive.

Do I want my son to become a multi-million dollar athlete at any and all costs? Not a chance. Do I want him to become a productive member of society, be able to provide for himself and his family (if he so decides)? Heck, yes. Will my wife and I do everything within the realm of all that is positive to ensure the latter? You bet.

Tuzi.....Great work,thanks for the comparison.

My primary reason for saying he is not the greatest is that NONE of the men used in these comparisons had the advantage of performance enhancing steroids and hgh.

The older guys with all the innings did not have the advantage of sitting down late in the game and having relief pitchers finish for them. IMO thats why they didn't hang around as long but logged more innings.

Actually my guy would be 1)Walter Johnson who had 417 wins in 666 chances (WOW) by a nice margin over 2) Steve Carlton because Lefty was in the modern era and finished games.

IMO, just like Bonds, Clemons is one of the greatest but considering the drugs and the pampered way pitchers are now handled, I'll go with the others, including Maddox.

Playball-

I do not understand how you say the "playing field was level" because of Bonds/Clemens. It may have been level between those two but we cannot assume that everyone was taking PED's either. I think there were more players NOT using than players who WERE using.

We are never going to know how many players were using them. How many of them are going to be labeled & wrongly accused? Never gonna really know that either. My youngest gained over 20 pounds this winter so there are going to be people who say he was on something. 12 hours a week in the weight room is going to change your body. Back in the early 70's when I played, no one was in the weight room. Watch those old guys on ESPN 2 and they all look the same cause they were all doing the same thing. Today they train much, much more than we ever did. I wish I could have trained like my two are now.. maybe I would have throw 92 versus 88.

Today the dedicated ones are working out and they are all bigger. It isn't all from PED's. We live in a different era.

Fact #1. We will never really know how many were on them.

Fact #2. There were probably more on PED's than came out in the Mitchell Report.

Fact #3. The playing field is never equal because certain people/groups have an advantage over others. The way of the world.

As a side note there probably were more people over the years who bet on baseball, other than Pete Rose but no one is going to care about the little guy... they are always looking to catch the big fish. Some big fish got caught...maybe.

quote:

I do not understand how you say the "playing field was level" because of Bonds/Clemens. It may have been level between those two but we cannot assume that everyone was taking PED's either. I think there were more players NOT using than players who WERE using.

N4C, as always I respect your insight, I have been fortunate to know a fair number of MLB'ers (7) to be exact all of which have had more than 8 years and began their respective career in the early to mid 90's, according to them in their estimate no less than 65% of the players and one statement that was profound and repeated by many of them, was it was the players you would suspect the least and because their skills are already among the games elite.

Playball-

Interesting. Call me a "Doubting Thomas" but I just don't believe that that many players were doing it. I have nothing to substantiate that though.

However, logic tells me that there would have been a lot more Conseco books out there if it was going on to that degree. Your a teacher, how many people run behind closed doors and rat on others at school? I just can't see that many people agreeing to keep rampant drug use hush-hush without certain people sqawking about it. MLB players aren't any different than the rest of us -they still put their pants on one leg at a time. Someone would have been P'ed off that someone above them "had their spot" because of PED's and would have ratted to the press about it. See where I am going with this?

Like I say. I have nothing to back it up other than my experiences in human nature.

Like you say though, I do wonder where all the owners/coaches/managers were when this was going on.

Go Marlins! Butch will be off soon too.

I hate to say it but I think, more likely, it's that more players than you suspect were probably doing it.

The Clemens thing completely bums me out. I love the guy's intensity and work ethic. I'd hate see his legacy tainted by something like this.

Maybe they should start a second league where steroids are mandatory..that'd be fun. Bunch of mammoth, hulking guys with tumours and zits, no necks and temper problems, knocking the living cr*p out of everything and beating up the umps.

Did you know that 44.5% of all statistics are made up?

Does that mean when I tell my wife that I am right 99% of the time, that I really made that up 44% of the time?

quote:

Originally posted by bballdad1954:
Did you know that 44.5% of all statistics are made up?

Stop watching so much Oprah. It'll dumb ya down.

I don't get the Oprah reference

quote:

Originally posted by bballdad1954:
Did you know that 44.5% of all statistics are made up?

Did you know that S e x Panther cologne is 100% effective, 60% of the time?