Bonds Vs McGwire

Vote for what??
Team Caption?
Vote that there 2 of the best power hitter's of all time??
OK I agree.

Oh you mean the HOF??
Why Not?
We will all no the History.
We will not need an Astrique to remind us.

Let's move forward??
EH

Two of the top sluggers of their era--absolutely. So what if it was/is "the steroid era?"

Bonds, yes.

McGwire, no.

Why one and not the other?

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Why one and not the other?

I'm with gjbk1 on this one.

I think you have to ask yourself this question in two steps.

1. Eliminate the steroid aquisations and determine if the raw numbers qualifies them.

2. Determine the proven guilt of each player for the use of banned drugs at the time in question.

If you answer YES to #1 and NO to #2 then they should go in under the HOF rules. One month ago I was NO to both players. After listening to both sides my gut feeling is they're both guilty as helll, but until they are convicted of a crime they should be judged innocent. If you put the shoes on your feet in a situation with like results what would your take be then? They could always be removed from the Hall if the evidence comes forth.

I agree with the questions rz - I just don't think McGwire makes it on the basis of his on the field performance...

I am one of those who think too many people make it... and put a very high bar on admission. McGwire just misses - along with Dale Murphy, Jim Rice, etc.

Bonds yes, McGwire no. They both cheated, but without steroids I feel as if Bonds would still have been a HOF player.

I don't think that McGwire excelled statistically for a long enough stretch of time, BUT, hoe much credence should be paid to how Sosa and McGwire almost single handedly brought baseball back to the forefront. Their home run race may have been one of the most important things to the game of baseball in the last 20 or 30 years. I am not sure that it changes my mind, but it definitely makes it a more difficult decision.

quote:

I agree with the questions rz - I just don't think McGwire makes it on the basis of his on the field performance...

Actually, if you compare the numbers of McGwire to players already in the HOF..McCovey, Schmidt, Matthews, Killebrew, Perez, and others...his numbers are very similar, or better.

If you keep McGwire out solely because he didn't testify to Congress, that's wrong.

If you vote Barroid in, disregarding his feeble Grand Jury testimony and his mysteriously growing head, that's wrong, too.

You can make the argument that no players from the last 15 years onward should be voted to the Hall, because there's no way to determine who's using Human Growth Hormone or undetectable steroids.

I will start with the assumption that neither did anything that can and will be proven.

Bonds yes

McGwire no

Bonds for the majority of his career was a 5 tool player that put up tremendous numbers.

McGwire was a one tool player that put up one number. For a career he had only 1600 hits. Yes his numbers closely match Killibrew and McCovey but not on the same plane with Schmidt and Matthews. Other than the Homerun what did this guy bring to the game. Further, the other members on the 500 list did not play in the band boxes McGwire played in. I say homeruns are not enough. That should help with the Sosa, Palmero, Thome, and Thomas arguements down the road also.

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Yes his numbers closely match Killibrew and McCovey but not on the same plane with Schmidt and Matthews.

Not on the same plane with Schmidt and Matthews?

Schmidt..548 HR, 1507 RBI, .267 BA, 1507 RBI, in 8,352 AB

Matthews..512 HR, 1453 RBI, .271 BA, 1453 RBI, in 8,537 AB.

McGwire..583 HR, 1414 RBI, .263 BA, 1414 RBI, in 6,187 AB.

Pretty comparable numbers, and Schmidt and Matthews had an additional 2,000+ AB's.

I agree with "Yes" Bonds and "No" to McGwire, though I wouldn't be upset if Mac got in and Bonds didn't, just because McGwire doesn't SEEM to be quite as big a jerk as Bonds (thought that's just a personal preference thing, not a numbers thing).....

As for comparing McGwire to some of the others, please note that McGwire was an average First Baseman at best...and first isn't the toughest position. Schmidt was one of the better fielding 3rd basemen. McCovey was also a very good fielder. Not sure about Matthews.

I always thought these numbers were interesting:

PLAYER 1
AVG. 266 HR 462 RBI 1407 SB 200 17 years
7 time all star
rookie of the year and MVP

PLAYER 2
AVG. 263 HR 583 RBI 1414 SB 12 in 16 yrs.
12 time all star
rookie of the year


Thats Canseco vs. McGwire. Anyone think Jose should go in?

Mathews and Schmidt played 3rd base. I think that clearly seperates them from McGwire.

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Mathews and Schmidt played 3rd base. I think that clearly seperates them from McGwire

I was going just on general stats, but lets examine it closer. Compare McGwire just to the 1B that are in Cooperstown.

Tony Perez...Eddie Murray...Willie McCovey...Harmon Killebrew...George Kelly..Frank Chance...Orlando Cepeda..these are some of the 1b in Cooperstown.

McGwire's #'s are similar or better than those guys. Orlando Cepeda made the Hall, and he was caught and convicted for possessing 160 lbs of marijuana. That's not 160 ounces...160 lbs.

McGwire hasn't been convicted of anything. He admitted using an over the counter supplement that was legal in MLB.

Bonds has admitted using steroids, HGH, and testosterone. He's still under investigation by a Grand Jury for lying under oath.

I really don't see how you admit Bonds and leave McGwire out, based on all of this.

I Voted For McGwire

2seamer I

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McGwire's #'s are similar or better than those guys. Orlando Cepeda made the Hall, and he was caught and convicted for possessing 160 lbs of marijuana. That's not 160 ounces...160 lbs.

Excellent research!

The thing about Cepedas bust is it happened when pot was "in" thing and was back burnered by the HOF. In the Mac controversy steroids were the "in" thing and he's strung up for it.

Some are going to say that pot is not a performance enhancing substance. Maybe not for you, but maybe it was for Orlando . but I guess we'll never know because he was never tested or proven to be on it.

I've done an about-face on the whole HOF issue. Testomony has proven that many players were "speedin" years ago but that has been brushed aside because it was not a banned substance at the time. Now McGuire's confession confirms that that he took Andro before it was banned and he is now a sacrificial lamb. There seems to be a double standard here. If his numbers hold water with other 1b in the Hall, let him in.