"Breathing" on the ball with foot on the rubber

my concern is not only with the ball handling issue from the pitcher. but with crowd control. when the parent in the stands made that comment, blue looked at me like he was about to eject me if i didnt get her under control. Am I to be held responsible for the actions of the people in my side of the stands? 

Not an umpire but here are my thoughts

1.  Breathing on the ball while engaged with the rubber is illegal IMO.  Needs to be called or at least tell the coach between innings or have the catcher go out and tell him to stop while he cleans the plate.

2.  The kid staring over at you and smirking should have been shut down by his coach.  Respect the game and the other team.  The umpire probably needs to step in here and tell the coach between innings for his guy to shut it down.  Simple preventative umpiring before the other team takes exception and hits him while he's batting.

3.  The person in the stands is not your job to control - that's event admin which would be the AD.  I'm assuming the parent who said "that's ignorant" was referring to what the pitcher said - overall the parent needs to keep their mouth shut but this is rabbit ears.  Let it go unless it gets worse / more personal.  Then if it does contact the AD at the field to address it with the fan.  Not your job.

4.  Umpire's explanation was not good.  You cannot do what the pitcher did nor should the umpire try to justify letting it go using backyard physics.

Yes, the umpire was wrong about the "yawning."  I don't know where you are from, but if it's cold the pitcher can blow on his hand.

In some areas, the coach is responsible for crowd control.  If you have "game management" present, they can / should do it -- but again the umpire might work through you to get to them

from Maine, but it was sunny and 75. and we keep a rosin bag available. our school AD has been here forever and umps softball, everybody knows him. our BB and SB fields are across the road from each other. at this particular time, he was across the road at the girls game, but he bops back and forth and is always sure to be present at the beginning and end of the game. he came over a couple innings later and i expressed my concerns and he was right there with me in the frustration. 

Absolutely! thanks Coach. I was really hoping i wouldn't be alone on this one. it got as far as the other infielders even making cracks to the kid as he was doing it:

"(sarcastically) you better wipe it off, hah!." ...absolutely uncalled for. and the field ump, who i have had nothing but good experiences with until now, ignored it. and what a double standard from blue to jump on me about a parent in the stands, and then let the kids on the field get away with that. to top it off, it was the second game of a DH, they were the home team for this one, at our field, and they forgot to bring game balls! each team is supposed to supply game balls for their home game. our AD was very clear with their AD about this in advance. As far as i can see, a team, and a coach that are not showing respect for the game. and it shows in their record!  

it was just strange. The plate ump, who gave me the backyard physics (love that term, I'm gonna start using it haha!) explanation i have had a hard time with all year. The first home game when i was explaining the ground rules he gave me some flack about the out of play lines and how hard it would be for him to judge them. the next home game with him, i conformed to what he wanted from the previous game, we even extended our chalk lines and such for him to get a better look and he gave me a hard time about it: "well thats not the way you guys usually do it, you seem confused" and stuff like that. keep in mind that this is at the pregame meeting at the plate in front of coaches and both teams captains and he is making condescending remarks to me. Way to start the game blue, how comfortable am i going to feel about asking you questions now? Just a very confrontational guy. Not an example i want my ball players, or any other umps to follow. He is the only ump i have had trouble with. most umps i can joke around with and small talk between innings. our gym teacher is an ump and him and i talk all the time. in my young career as a coach, i feel like i am pretty well in tune with umps and their role in the game and how to communicate with them. 

Also, i didnt want to mention this originally, but, once this all happened, the strike zone got microscopic for my pitchers. I dont now, and dont think i ever will argue balls and strikes. I hate watching coaches argue petty stuff like that with blue and cant imagine it ever being overturned anyways. I am not a hot headed guy (although our schools previous coach had quite a reputation for it) and i keep my cool well. I usually dont even ask about a questionable call until a couple innings later when things have moved on.

my AD has been aware of issues with this ump, and i guess im not the first coach to voice concern about him. I will be meeting more with my AD about how to handle these situations and the possibility of avoiding hiring this ump in the future. another tough thing about living in a rural area, Class D teams get Class D umps. we are lucky enough to have any at all.

But, I don't want this thread to turn into ump bashing though! Umps are very important! it is a tough gig, and i have huge respect for them as a whole. They have to make a lot of tough decisions and there is always someone who is not going to be happy with it. lots of weight on them. I would like umps to feel comfortable posting in this thread and share their thoughts weather or not they are aligned with mine. I just want to make sure im doing my best to get it right.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the blowing on the hand in cold temperatures has to be while not engaged with the rubber and has to wipe his hand.

Yeah that makes it tough on the coach if he has to be responsible for game management.  It should always go through event admin so the game can continue.  If coach has to handle it then the game stops until it's over.  If the fan decides to make a scene then now it will take as long as it takes for police to show up to escort them off premises.  Let someone outside handle this so the game can continue.

CoachZ - little advice on using blue to talk to umps.  Make sure they are cool with it.  In my experience some guys are ok with being called blue and some aren't.  They want to be referred to as Mr. Umpire or their first name.  While you mean no ill will towards them by using the term you never know if they are going to take exception to it.  Hopefully, they are smart enough to say "hey coach I would rather you call me _____ instead of blue".

In Maine do you guys have to get your own umpires or is there some sort of regional booking agent who takes your schedule and assigns umps?  If there is a booking agent (or something similar) either have your AD or you talk to this person and ask if there are scratches.  A scratch is where you can have a certain umpire not do your games at all.

I'm AD at my school and I used a scratch on a softball umpire this year.  It was after the first or second game at our place.  Our catcher came up to me and asked if there was anything we could do about the plate umpire.  He basically creeped her out - he told her (during the game) his life story about why things were going wrong and his divorce, he kept asking her what the count / outs were, he really liked doing our games because everyone was so nice and other stuff.  I called the booking agent next day and told him these things and we never saw him again rest of the season.

If pitcher was doing this repeatedly, a better tact might have been to wait until between innings before they head back out on defense.  Casually mention to plate ump what you're seeing, ask him to watch for it and tell him you think it's illegal.  Might not have gotten the call you wanted, but maybe a better chance at it.  Plus, now the ump is directing it instead of you.  You don't want to be having back and forth with opposing player no matter what.  Also, by calling attention in real time... You're backing the ump into a corner to decide something that he might not have even noticed yet.  As for crowd control, I do think it's on the HC to have already let his parents know that they'd better not be ratcheting up situations with umps at the wrong moments.  Parents can ride umps to a certain degree, but when the line gets crossed and the ump pushes back... One look from the HC should quiet his crowd immediately. 

wow, yeah. i never even thought about the blue thing. Ive just observed other coaches doing it and assumed its commonplace. But, as you mentioned, clear lines of communications keep healthy relationships. if he corrected me, you bet i would call him Mr. Smith, or whatever from then on out. to my understanding, around here we have a "lead" ump who does the assigning. I believe their pay comes from the home school. they get a flat rate pay per game+mileage from their home. The reason we use this guy so much may very well be simply because he lives close by.  

Thanks Green, looking back, I definitely think that would have been a better approach than putting the ump on the spot the way i did. In this situation, i just thought it was so painfully blatant and clearly illegal that it should be something addressed right away and an easy call. but, you know what they say about assuming haha! i saw it right in the first inning so i wasnt sure if he would do it repeatedly or not, so i jumped right on it. however, the way things went, he went on to do it regularly throughout the rest of the game, could have waited and addressed it differently. 

just out of curiosity, what should be the call for something like this? a balk? or a warning and then an ejection if it happens again? or what?

When i gestured to the mother, her chatter stopped immediately and she later apologized to me. Also, i did not get into back and forth with the kid, he made the comment to me, and with a pretty "wise" tone of voice at that. i directed all of my talk to the umps. im not interested in getting in a shouting match with a HS player on another team who is obviously doing something wrong. the whole situation was really bizarre. 

Its good to know that i was in the right in terms of the rules, and its even better to see how i could have handled the situation in a better way. I'm Still learning, thats for sure. 

really appreciate all the discussion folks. In my first season, this forum has been an invaluable resource for me. I cant thank you all enough!

The way I see it there are 2 scenarios, both would be a balk.   First - If the pitcher had the ball in throwing hand and after taking signs brought it up to breathe on it before coming set, that would be a balk.  Unless I am mistaken, the move to a set position must be one continuous movement.  Stopping at the mouth then to the set would cause the balk.   Second, ball in glove taking signs, then removed from glove to breathe on it then to set position.   The removing the ball from the glove would simulate the start of the pitching motion and would be a balk.   Now if the player breathed on the ball before the signs, then we have somethin different.  A recent rule change allows a player to be on the mound (but not on the rubber) and go to his mouth - provided he wipes after.  Technically, being near the mouth is not going to the mouth, so breathing on the ball is not illegal.  Look at Andy Pettite... he used to take signs with ball in glove and glove over face.   He was (could have been) doing the same thing - breathing on the ball before coming set.  IMO - It is not the act of breathing on the ball that causes the balk, it is the motion made to breathe on the ball.  

Keep in mind that the pitcher is allowed to make "preliminary movements" before his natural pitching motion commits him to the pitch.  For example; adjusting his cap, scratching his nose, even wiping his brow (should be followed by a wipe.)  None of these movement would be considered a balk.  Once he starts up with his natural motion he has committed and must continue in one motion to the set position.  Once in the set position he can no longer remove the ball from his glove without disengaging from the rubber or stepping directly to a base to pick off a runner, or pitching to the batter.

When I see a pitcher go to his mouth while on the rubber (especially when it is a yawn or something like that) I always tell the catcher to go tell the pitcher I will call a ball or balk with runners on the next time I see it. It usually stops right then.

I understand where your coming from Newumpire, however, if a wipe off is required when dampening the fingers, why would it not be required when dampening the ball? and doing any of this when attached to the rubber?

IMO any preparatory action (licking fingers, wiping, palming the ball, stuff like that) should be taken while not attached to the rubber. once attached to the rubber, take your signs, and play ball. this is probably not a specific rule, but, i think its good baseball and its how i will teach my kids. 

so, i think it seems like we can all agree that at the very least, after breathing on the ball, there should have been a wipe. 

While on the rubber, the pitcher should not go to his month period.  Action should be taken by the umpire in some manner.  A warning directly, or via the catcher per the umpires request (as in my previous post), or a "Ball" call with no runner on base, or a "Balk" call with a runner on base.  As I said before, a warning usually takes care of this problem for the rest of the game if done properly. 

A wipe is required when the pitcher is off of the rubber and goes to his mouth.

Good deal, Thanks again. 

Just for my own reference. how many of us posters here are umps? 2709, your a coach/AD right? Newumpire i have to assume is an ump? JWC? Soylentgreen?

13 year umpire,  High School on down.

More or less correct.  I'm AD now but don't coach.  I was a baseball coach for 20 years with 9 as head coach.

I don't have my HS books handy, but from NCAA 9-2D, AR2 "In cold weather, the umpire may announce to both teams that it is permissible for the pitcher to blow on his hand, on or off the rubber."

And, wiping in this instance, is not needed.

One of the things you need to understand about HS umpiring, is that often you don't get the "best umpire".... you get "the most available umpire"...the act you described is illegal and the explanation you got was bogus.....

Umpire interaction is a skill you will need to develop. Its simple and a lot of it comes with experience....I am pretty well known by the coach fraternity in my area. many times they will address me by my first name and I theirs......if I don't know them, then its Coach only and my responses to them are yes sir, or no sir.... I want to come off as cordial, not overly friendly....

I do not mind being called blue, but tread lightly here as some consider it a slur.....Mr Umpire is acceptable, but seems overly formal to me personally.......YO UMP, or REF, is a major mistake....  

Recently we have a number of posters answering questions on this forum as well as our usual staff of umpires. All in all that is well and good, but it does lend some confusion to some posters. 

Noumpere, thanks for the tip. In this case, it was sunny and 75 so no need for the cold weather call. We have established here that it was definitely the wrong call that was made. 

PIAA, i have learned a great deal in a short time about the umpiring in the area here. we are few and far between with a lot of miles for them to travel. unless its a playoff game, you pretty much get who you get and thats it. 

up until this point, i have used blue almost exclusively. Its usually something like "excuse me blue" with these particular 2 in the future i will be using their last names. and ever since i have been sure to ask before the game if they mind me calling them blue.  

as i mentioned before, our previous coach was notorious for being a hot head and had some really ugly interactions throughout his time here, so there might be a bit of a stigma attached to our team with the umps. I am also a younger coach (25) and ive got a bit of a baby face and a tall average build so i tend blend in well with the kids. I feel like at times, they treat me like one too. Its not my fault that im not middle aged and overweight...yet! haha!