Skip to main content

24 replies

bunted ball hits batter

F FanForLife10+ posts
looking for clarification.

Runners on 1st & 2nd. Batter bunts fair then runs into the ball in fair territory -he's out but the home plate umpire was shielded from the batter/runner/ball & the play continues & batter is thrown out at first. The umpires ruled batter was out but let the runners advance to 2nd & 3rd.

Shouldn't the runners have been made to return to their original bases due to dead ball ?
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

S scocar10+ posts
If the umpires conferred and it was decided that the ball did indeed hit the batter then the runners should have returned to their bases. If the umpires were somewhat unsure of whether the batter was actually hit by the ball (and clearly the home plate umpire was unsure since he didn't see it at all), then I could see them letting it stand as a force out at first.
M Matt1310,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by scocar:
quote:
Originally posted by dash_riprock:
It is impossible for a force play to occur at 1st base.


Most people conclude that an out that doesn't require a tag is a force out. If you know what they mean is it really important to point that out?


Yes. Definitions are key to understanding rules.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by scocar:
quote:
Originally posted by dash_riprock:
It is impossible for a force play to occur at 1st base.


Most people conclude that an out that doesn't require a tag is a force out. If you know what they mean is it really important to point that out?


Yes. Many an argument and many ejections could have been avoided if coaches and umpires both fully understood the difference, especially when deciding whether or not a run scores when the third out looked like a force but was in fact an appeal play.

Words have meanings and it is always best to use them properly.
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by scocar:
quote:
Originally posted by dash_riprock:
It is impossible for a force play to occur at 1st base.


Most people conclude that an out that doesn't require a tag is a force out. If you know what they mean is it really important to point that out?


Yes. Many an argument and many ejections could have been avoided if coaches and umpires both fully understood the difference, especially when deciding whether or not a run scores when the third out looked like a force but was in fact an appeal play.

Words have meanings and it is always best to use them properly.


Agree 100%

Here are the two key takeaways....

1. Matt- Yes. Definitions are key to understanding rules.
2. Jimmy- Yes. Many an argument and many ejections could have been avoided if coaches and umpires both fully understood the difference
S scocar10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by scocar:
quote:
Originally posted by dash_riprock:
It is impossible for a force play to occur at 1st base.


Most people conclude that an out that doesn't require a tag is a force out. If you know what they mean is it really important to point that out?


Yes. Many an argument and many ejections could have been avoided if coaches and umpires both fully understood the difference, especially when deciding whether or not a run scores when the third out looked like a force but was in fact an appeal play.

Words have meanings and it is always best to use them properly.


Please take this for what it is, which is a legitimate question. I'm looking for explanation so that I can properly communicate this to others and understand it myself.

So give me an example of when calling the out at first a "force" out could cause a problem that may lead to an ejection?

Also why don't they refer to it as a force out? I don't know what the reason is for referencing it differently. On a "force out" at second the runner is "forced to run, and therefore a tag is not necessary to put him out. On an out at first the batter-runner is forced to run, and therefore the he does not need to be tagged to be put out. The only real difference I see is that getting an out on the runner at first can remove the force at the other bases where nothing can remove the force at first.
S scocar10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by scocar:
quote:
Originally posted by dash_riprock:
It is impossible for a force play to occur at 1st base.


Most people conclude that an out that doesn't require a tag is a force out. If you know what they mean is it really important to point that out?


Yes. Many an argument and many ejections could have been avoided if coaches and umpires both fully understood the difference, especially when deciding whether or not a run scores when the third out looked like a force but was in fact an appeal play.

Words have meanings and it is always best to use them properly.


I would say that an ejection is far more likely when a coach questions the umpire about the "force out" at first and the umpire arrogantly states "it's impossible to have a force out at first" like was done in this thread.
Last edited by scocar
S scocar10+ posts
Am I in the twilight zone here? Why would someone read this thread that asks a question about a rule on a play, and respond with "it's impossible for a force out to occur at first base". This in no way answers the OP's original question. And with no explanation it offers zero benefit to those that don't know that the out at first is not referred to as a force out. So the post by itself offer absolutely no value. If it weren't for others commenting on it, it would be a complete waste of cyberspace.

Why do so many of you choose to respond this way? It really makes you come off as arrogant and mean-spirited. And those that are not mean-spirited don't call you out for it they seem instead to worship you like all knowing baseball Gods.

Trust me as a teacher, that knowledge is much better put to use in a way that makes people want to learn from you. If you come across as arrogant and condescending it does not matter what you know, your audience will be smaller in size than if you made learning a positive rather than a negative experience.
M Matt1310,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by scocar:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by scocar:
quote:
Originally posted by dash_riprock:
It is impossible for a force play to occur at 1st base.


Most people conclude that an out that doesn't require a tag is a force out. If you know what they mean is it really important to point that out?


Yes. Many an argument and many ejections could have been avoided if coaches and umpires both fully understood the difference, especially when deciding whether or not a run scores when the third out looked like a force but was in fact an appeal play.

Words have meanings and it is always best to use them properly.


I would say that an ejection is far more likely when a coach questions the umpire about the "force out" at first and the umpire arrogantly states "it's impossible to have a force out at first" like was done in this thread.


Are you incapable of seeing the difference between an Internet discussion and something that occurs on the field?

You sweat now so you don't bleed later. We nitpick now so there's not a ****house later.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by scocar:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by scocar:
quote:
Originally posted by dash_riprock:
It is impossible for a force play to occur at 1st base.


Most people conclude that an out that doesn't require a tag is a fo
rce out. If you know what they mean is it really important to point that out?

Yes. Many an argument and many ejections could have been avoided if coaches and umpires both fully understood the difference, especially when deciding whether or not a run scores when the third out looked like a force but was in fact an appeal play.

Words have meanings and it is always best to use them properly.


Please take this for what it is, which is a legitimate question. I'm looking for explanation so that I can properly communicate this to others and understand it myself.

So give me an example of when calling the out at first a "force" out could cause a problem that may lead to an ejection?

Also why don't they refer to it as a force out? I don't know what the reason is for referencing it differently. On a "force out" at second the runner is "forced to run, and therefore a tag is not necessary to put him out. On an out at first the batter-runner is forced to run, and therefore the he does not need to be tagged to be put out. The only real difference I see is that getting an out on the runner at first can remove the force at the other bases where nothing can remove the force at first.


1. My post referred to a play that looks like a force as opposed to a force when a run scores prior to a third out.

One example: Two outs, R1, R2. Batter hits fly ball to deep right field. Upon the touch of the ball R3 tags and scores. R1, however took off on the pitch and has to scurry to tag up.

The throw from F9 gets to first prior to R1's touch and he is ruled out.

It looks like a force and the defensive coach comes out to argue the run can't score since the third out was a force. In reality it is an appeal play and as long as R3 scored first, his run counts.

I have seen this play lead to an ejection more than once.

2. As to why they don't refer to the out of the batter runner at first as a force is because it does not fit the definition of a force as found in OBR Rule 2.00

If you are not familiar with Rule 2.00, give it a read.
Last edited by Jimmy03
M Matt1310,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by scocar:
Am I in the twilight zone here? Why would someone read this thread that asks a question about a rule on a play, and respond with "it's impossible for a force out to occur at first base". This in no way answers the OP's original question. And with no explanation it offers zero benefit to those that don't know that the out at first is not referred to as a force out. So the post by itself offer absolutely no value. If it weren't for others commenting on it, it would be a complete waste of cyberspace.


You obviously haven't read the thread. Someone made an incorrect reference to a force out. Hence the need to clarify what is and isn't one.

quote:
Originally posted by scocar:
Why do so many of you choose to respond this way? It really makes you come off as arrogant and mean-spirited. And those that are not mean-spirited don't call you out for it they seem instead to worship you like all knowing baseball Gods.


We take this seriously. Words mean things. There are proper and improper ways to umpire.

The only mean-spirited one here is you. You came looking for salvation on something, didn't like the answer, and now have the audacity to tell us how to act. I suggest that you take a hard look at yourself and realize that you do not get to pick and choose what you want. You do not get to go into someone's house and make your rules theirs.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by scocar:
Am I in the twilight zone here? Why would someone read this thread that asks a question about a rule on a play, and respond with "it's impossible for a force out to occur at first base". This in no way answers the OP's original question. And with no explanation it offers zero benefit to those that don't know that the out at first is not referred to as a force out. So the post by itself offer absolutely no value. If it weren't for others commenting on it, it would be a complete waste of cyberspace.

Why do so many of you choose to respond this way? It really makes you come off as arrogant and mean-spirited. And those that are not mean-spirited don't call you out for it they seem instead to worship you like all knowing baseball Gods.

Trust me as a teacher, that knowledge is much better put to use in a way that makes people want to learn from you. If you come across as arrogant and condescending it does not matter what you know, your audience will be smaller in size than if you made learning a positive rather than a negative experience.


You are not the only teacher here. I am not working with 16 and 17b year olds here, I am working with umpires. If your skin is so thin that anything posted here offends you, how do you survive on the field?
Last edited by Jimmy03
JMoffJMoff1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by scocar:
Am I in the twilight zone here? Why would someone read this thread that asks a question about a rule on a play, and respond with "it's impossible for a force out to occur at first base". This in no way answers the OP's original question. And with no explanation it offers zero benefit to those that don't know that the out at first is not referred to as a force out. So the post by itself offer absolutely no value. If it weren't for others commenting on it, it would be a complete waste of cyberspace.

Why do so many of you choose to respond this way? It really makes you come off as arrogant and mean-spirited. And those that are not mean-spirited don't call you out for it they seem instead to worship you like all knowing baseball Gods.

Trust me as a teacher, that knowledge is much better put to use in a way that makes people want to learn from you. If you come across as arrogant and condescending it does not matter what you know, your audience will be smaller in size than if you made learning a positive rather than a negative experience.


At the risk of raising everyone's ire (again) I have to side with scocar.

This was a relatively simple OP and the key components haven't been answered yet (was the batter called out because he was hit with the ball or because he was thrown out at first).

Until we answer that question, we have valuable dialog on other possible outcomes which may not matter. Somehow we got to discussing ejections before the results of the OP were understood.
M Matt1310,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by JMoff:
At the risk of raising everyone's ire (again) I have to side with scocar.

This was a relatively simple OP and the key components haven't been answered yet (was the batter called out because he was hit with the ball or because he was thrown out at first).


No ire to be raised; we are all waiting on that answer.

We are simply having discussions to further clarify the elements of the rules that are applicable.
Last edited by Matt13
S scocar10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Matt13:
quote:
Originally posted by scocar:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by scocar:
quote:
Originally posted by dash_riprock:
It is impossible for a force play to occur at 1st base.


Most people conclude that an out that doesn't require a tag is a force out. If you know what they mean is it really important to point that out?


Yes. Many an argument and many ejections could have been avoided if coaches and umpires both fully understood the difference, especially when deciding whether or not a run scores when the third out looked like a force but was in fact an appeal play.

Words have meanings and it is always best to use them properly.


I would say that an ejection is far more likely when a coach questions the umpire about the "force out" at first and the umpire arrogantly states "it's impossible to have a force out at first" like was done in this thread.


Are you incapable of seeing the difference between an Internet discussion and something that occurs on the field?

You sweat now so you don't bleed later. We nitpick now so there's not a ****house later.


No I'm not. But I've worked with many umpires that respond to coaches just like they do on these boards. Unbridled arrogance is not generally something you can turn on and off like a light switch.
S scocar10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Matt13:
quote:
Originally posted by scocar:
Am I in the twilight zone here? Why would someone read this thread that asks a question about a rule on a play, and respond with "it's impossible for a force out to occur at first base". This in no way answers the OP's original question. And with no explanation it offers zero benefit to those that don't know that the out at first is not referred to as a force out. So the post by itself offer absolutely no value. If it weren't for others commenting on it, it would be a complete waste of cyberspace.


You obviously haven't read the thread. Someone made an incorrect reference to a force out. Hence the need to clarify what is and isn't one.

quote:
Originally posted by scocar:
Why do so many of you choose to respond this way? It really makes you come off as arrogant and mean-spirited. And those that are not mean-spirited don't call you out for it they seem instead to worship you like all knowing baseball Gods.


We take this seriously. Words mean things. There are proper and improper ways to umpire.

The only mean-spirited one here is you. You came looking for salvation on something, didn't like the answer, and now have the audacity to tell us how to act. I suggest that you take a hard look at yourself and realize that you do not get to pick and choose what you want. You do not get to go into someone's house and make your rules theirs.


This is your house? Is that was is meant by your response?
S scocar10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by scocar:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt13:
quote:
Originally posted by scocar:
Am I in the twilight zone here? Why would someone read this thread that asks a question about a rule on a play, and respond with "it's impossible for a force out to occur at first base". This in no way answers the OP's original question. And with no explanation it offers zero benefit to those that don't know that the out at first is not referred to as a force out. So the post by itself offer absolutely no value. If it weren't for others commenting on it, it would be a complete waste of cyberspace.


You obviously haven't read the thread. Someone made an incorrect reference to a force out. Hence the need to clarify what is and isn't one.

quote:
Originally posted by scocar:
Why do so many of you choose to respond this way? It really makes you come off as arrogant and mean-spirited. And those that are not mean-spirited don't call you out for it they seem instead to worship you like all knowing baseball Gods.


We take this seriously. Words mean things. There are proper and improper ways to umpire.

The only mean-spirited one here is you. You came looking for salvation on something, didn't like the answer, and now have the audacity to tell us how to act. I suggest that you take a hard look at yourself and realize that you do not get to pick and choose what you want. You do not get to go into someone's house and make your rules theirs.


This is your house? Is that was is meant by your response?


I did read the thread. "It's impossible to have a force out at first" by itself does not "clarify". That response followed by an explanation would "clarify" the confusion. Most people (not umpires although some of them as well) refer to the putout of the batter-runner at first as a "force out". While that is incorrect it is an extremely common misconception. So it clearly begs for an explanation, not a one sentence refutation. The sentence with no explanation comes across as someone looking to arrogantly tout their baseball knowledge.
jjkjjk500+ posts
OBR 2.00

Definitions:
"A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner."

A BR isn't quite yet a runner, had nothing to occupy except a batters box, hence he isn't forced anywhere.

Real life, you tell this to a player, coach, fan, they'll stare right into your third eye...

True, well read/trained umpires will use this verbatim in the class room, at the bar as a trivia question, to stress the need to get your nose in the rule book, some as fodder to fill training time or pages in a book, or lines on a thread.

I've never been willing to jump in the argument and maintain my position on that fence.

As far as the rest of your posts, gloves and tape,
if it's not in the book, use you best game management judgement, through in some spirit of the game and fair play, take a safety/distraction perspective only and let em play.
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
OK, again I will play referee. We are waiting for clarification on what happened in the OP. We aren't sure if the BU killed the ball and they decide to call the BR out for interference, or on the throw to first. In the former the runners return, in the latter they stay where they are.
I always stress to new umpires and coaches both to sit and read rule 2.00. It is the basis of all of the rules and rulings. Without having this knowledge it causes all kinds of arguments and ejections.

Add Reply

Post
.

Membership Required

We're sorry. You must be signed in to continue. Sign In or Register
×
Are you sure you want to remove from your Block List?
×
Loading...
×
When you block a person, they can no longer invite you to a private message or post to your profile wall. Replies and comments they make will be collapsed/hidden by default. Finally, you'll never receive email notifications about content they create or likes they designate for your content.
Note: if you proceed, you will no longer be following .
×
Advanced Search
Advanced Search
Link copied to your clipboard.
×