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55 replies

Can of worms

DB Danny Boydston1,000+ posts
From some of the coaches, parents, and anyone else who wanted to throw their two cents worth in.
I was curious to know how most felt about a one game series as opposed to a best of three.
I know without knowing much about one or both teams it's kind of hard to decide what is best in this situation. Who does a one game series favor, the favorite or underdog and why? Most teams who have made it to the second round of the playoffs probably have a strong ace and a pretty decent #2. Probably a bullpen with another guy or two who can pitch. I do realize that you have to compare your staff to the one you are going up against to see if you stand a chance in a best of three. My guess is you would go a one game series if your coach felt you could not match up in three. In this situation the Lake Dallas coach went with a one game series vs Mequite Poteet at Lake Dallas. Poteet I believe wanted a best of three. With most people knowing how deep Poteet is and not knowing much about Lake Dallas, was this the best thing to do? Does Lake Dallas have a better chance with one than they would with three.
I would like to hear the pros and cons of both.
Keep in mind that Lake Dallas (heavy underdog) swept Highland Park last year. All or nothing is not always best!!
One other question. Should it be left up to the kids. Is it not their game. Is it not their memories and experiences that they have in Texas High school baseball that will last them a lifetime. Or is it a coaches job to make the decision that he feels is best for the team and maybe his job. Just some things to ponder.
Thanks in advance for the feedback!
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Panther DadPanther Dad5,000+ posts
In my opinion, all rounds of the playoffs should be best 2-of-3. That is the most legitimate way to determine the state's best team in each classificiation. Generally speaking, a coach chooses a single-game because he believes that the opponent is stronger over multiple games --- despite the arguments made by the Coppell dads this week. Before we travel that path again, I understand that it does NOT necessarily mean that he lacks confidence in his kids.

Also, this "stuff" about a coach winning to protect his job ---- ummmm, wake up people. Smile This isn't Texas HS football!!! When was the last time a HS baseball coach in Texas was fired because he lost early in the playoffs? And don't even think about last year and the Poteet coach....let's not go there. In my experience, if a coach makes the playoffs, he can lose in 5 innings in the first one-game series and expect to retain his job.

I have never heard of a coach that lets his kids decide --- but that's a pretty decent idea! Smile
K KellerDad1,000+ posts
PD, you don't know Lake Dallas. The AD is the former BASEBALL coach. It is truly a baseball town.

This coach probably saved his job by getting into the playoffs.

And with Lewisville getting into the playoffs for the first time in many years, some north of the lake are looking south at a certain assistant in Lewisville who used to lead the Falcons.
Last edited by KellerDad
AR ASU RAM FAN100+ posts
PD I agree with you that a 3 game series will give you the best teams. What concerns me is the teams that have one horse and a few ponies. I have seen in the last few years some of those teams using that horse in all 3 games of the series, possibly 2 or 3 weekends in a row.

This happens more at the smaller school level, but I doubt the UIL will have different rules for different levels. OH wait, they are already doing that next year by having 4 teams from 5A qualify and only 3 for the other levels.
C crawdad100+ posts
First off I agree a 3 game series generally gives the advantage to the "better" team or at least the one with the most pitchers. However, I completely agree with a coaches decision to wanting a one game playoff if he has a dominate pitcher but lacks a solid #2 or #3 compared to the team he is matched up against. The coach has to do what is best for HIS team - he should not be concerned about whether the "best" team wins only that HIS team wins.

Texas UIL basketball playoffs are set up for only one game series so I guess we all should be thankful that at least in baseball we have the opportunity to play 3 game series when appropriate.

One more thing - when a coach gets put into a three game series should there be UIL mandated pitch limit imposed on the pitchers? I would have said definitely NOT until this past weekend. Here in East Texas a pitcher for a small school (3A I think) pitched two 7 inning games back to back (14 innings in 24 hours). He lost the second game (no surprise). I would have said until I saw this in the paper that it should be up to the parents to safe-guard their kids against something like this happening. But it is obvious that some parents are idiots and maybe the UIL should protect the kids from their parents (and coaches).

Anyway, I see nothing wrong with a coach flipping for a one game series. He has to do what is best for his team. Remember, playoffs are not about having the "best" team win - they are about having YOUR team win.
Last edited by crawdad
oldbat-neveroldbat-never1,000+ posts
I like the series concept and it should be universal, all levels. By playing 2-3 games in the series you see the depth of a team, teams need to develop more pitching throughout the regular season so they are ready if/when they are in the playoffs, everyone is on the same schedule (time between games except if you sweep 2-0 you get an extra day or two off), teams get in more games in post season which makes everyone happy esp. the senior players/parents and you eliminate the "what were you thinking" if your coach chooses a 1 game situation and you are 1 and out.

As I mentioned last week in another thread I think the UIL should just get rid of the option.... and make it best 2 out of 3 for everyone.
Last edited by oldbat-never
swingdoctor14swingdoctor14500+ posts
F.O.
You are exactly right on pitch count being something U.I.L. needs to look into. Not only during the playoffs but in the regular season as well. Go to the state tournament and watch the abuse take place. "Well, he told me he felt great," is usually thrown out as an excuse when asked "why would you do that to a kid"?
Or "There was no way he would give up that ball." Lame ~ Lame ~ Lame angry
C ctiger100+ posts
well these are aome great thoughts,

But as one of you said the object is to move to the next round.........

One year our team met up with one of our district opponents in the regional quarter finals and they had beaten us 3 times already that year. They were also ranked in the top 10.

We had a pitcher that had not thrown against them yet that year. He was a hot pitcher so we decided for a one game play-off and we won the flip.


The A.D. was pissed - he lost money.(the game had 5500 attendance for just the one game instead of 2 or possible 3 games)

The other coach was pissed

The community was pissed

our parents were pissed

and anyone else you want to throw in there was pissed..

We 10 run ruled them in 5 innings and moved to the regional semi- finals.

My point is, the coach knows his team better than anyone and he gets paid albeit a very small amount, to make these decisions.
The bottem line is you have to do whats best for your team..

By the way we went 2out of 3 every other series except this one.

Just an old mans opinion...
C crawdad100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by screwball:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by crawdad:
Here in East Texas a pitcher for a small school (3A I think) pitched two 7 inning games back to back (14 innings in 24 hours). QUOTE]

crawdad, if you don't mind, what school was that?


Quite honestly I read the article in passing. I think I remember who but I want to see if I can find the article again before I say a school on here.
Panther DadPanther Dad5,000+ posts
crawdad --- thanks for the information regarding the East Texas kid --- that's unreal!

Aren't you a guy that thinks the kid should "protect" himself? Smile

Who would enforce pitch counts? The umps? Opposing coaches? More governmental control? hehe.

I'd rather see inning limits for playoff series -- like summer tournaments, although that occurs primarily at the younger ages.
C crawdad100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Panther Dad:
crawdad --- thanks for the information regarding the East Texas kid --- that's unreal!

Aren't you a guy that thinks the kid should "protect" himself? Smile

Who would enforce pitch counts? The umps? Opposing coaches? More governmental control? hehe.

I'd rather see inning limits for playoff series -- like summer tournaments, although that occurs primarily at the younger ages.


You are correct - an inning limit would be much more practical than an actual pitch count.

I don't know if I am the guy that thinks kids should "protect" themselves but I do think they SHOULD. But it is awfully hard to ask a high school kid stand up to his coach's order to take the mound and pitch when the kid knows he really should not. That is an awfully tough situation to put a kid in.
Last edited by crawdad
D Dtiger1,000+ posts
I see a reason for an inning limit, but I also see a need for a pitch count limit. We were playing our last district game this year and weren't going to make playoffs, and our senior pitcher was pitching. Whether or not he plays in college is not known, but he ended up throwing 134 pitches. I think this is a rediculous amount. On two occasions I threw over 100 pitches, and then went to play short later that day. That's not too nice on the arm. I'm not trying to bash my coach, but there need to be protective measures for this. He doesn't intend to be bad, but the options of having certain players doing certain things outweigh the health sometimes.
tychcotychco1,000+ posts
I am glad to see Dtiger and other players post on this topic. They realize more than anyone the wear and tear over-pitching does to their arms.

I believe if a player approaches his coach the way Dtiger describes, most coaches would listen to what the player is describing and be willing to limit pitch counts...expecially in a situation where the team is not going to the post-season.
Panther DadPanther Dad5,000+ posts
My problem with a hard pitch count is this --- the kid that throws 40% changeups should not have to retire when he throws his 90th pitch. Who determines when enough is enough? Inning restrictions would solve part of the problem.

Do you count warm up pitches? If so, what happens when the kid decides he needs 4 warm ups instead of 8? You see the logistical problems.
B baseballmom
quote:
...and he gets paid albeit a very small amount...


I learned a saying many years ago..."You pay peanuts...you'll get monkeys!!"
Seems to fit in this case, too!

RE: East Texas School that pitched a kid back to back? Hope it wasn't Lindale, again!

PD, if a coach warms up a kid 4 times, see saying above!! The kid will have dead-arm!
Players need to learn how to say "NO!". They shouldn't allow abuse. They can control how they "feel", and how to communicate it respectfully. Hopefully by this age, a kid knows his body well enough to pace himself, check on his count every inning, & avoid overuse. If not, then it would be a good thing to learn.
Last edited by baseballmom
tychcotychco1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Panther Dad:
My problem with a hard pitch count is this --- the kid that throws 40% changeups should not have to retire when he throws his 90th pitch. Who determines when enough is enough? Inning restrictions would solve part of the problem.

Do you count warm up pitches? If so, what happens when the kid decides he needs 4 warm ups instead of 8? You see the logistical problems.


Agreed, PD, that is why communication between player and coach is the ideal. If there is agreement there, then hopefully game day would yield no surprises.

I am not poly anna enough to think all coaches would let a player drive the pitch count entirely, but the communication between the two is a good start.
Panther DadPanther Dad5,000+ posts
But you seem to be referring to bullpen warm ups (pre-appearance) --- they could not possibly regulate how many pitches are thrown on the side. I am referring to pitches thrown in between innings from the hill. If there was a finite pitch-count, coaches might suggest skipping warm up pitches, which may be another bad idea. Follow me here ---- a kid sits in the dugout between innings with 12 pitches left in his game (posted pitch count is 90)....coach tells him to skip his 8 warmups to last another inning. Good idea? -- probably not.

Another example ----> pitch count is growing for unhittable pitcher that is a little wild.....opposing order takes pitches in the 6th to chase him -- he is forced to leave when he hits 95? Come on peeps -- these scenarios aren't going to happen. Smile
B baseballmom
Someone is misunderstanding...I do not see how a mandatory pitch count could be imposed.

I do think a player needs to know his count after each inning, know how effective he is, & be able to know his body well enough to pace himself. If he's getting high in an inning (18-20+), then make the mental adjustments or "listen to his arm", as the case may be. If he needs to speak up, then he needs to speak up.
I recall Benoit from a few years ago...That taught my son a lesson...
TS Tiger Sideline10+ posts
I totally agree with PD, you’re grasping at something that is not a realistic scenario. I do however agree that the communication process from the coach and the player needs to be something they are both aware of. The player knows when it's time and should communicate that with the coach. Sometimes in the late innings or where a high pitch count is involved it should be communicated every inning.

JMO
D Dtiger1,000+ posts
Overall, kids need to be able to tell their coaches. Only one small problem, I don't know a single kid that would take himself because of a pitch count. I know I wouldn't. I think it is almost impossible, coaches need to have an idea of what a kid has thrown and how many times he's thrown it. As to how this relates to a series being 1 or 3 game... It is not uncommon to have a kid pitch the first game of a series-win- then pitch the third if needed. Atleast, I know of players willing to do it. It all comes back to that competitive drive. I can personally attest to needing a limit, considering I had arm trouble last fall due to overuse. It's high school baseball, have fun, don't ruin your future.
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