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I have heard many different things about what a coach can and can't do as far as coaching out of season, holding practices, scrimmages and the whole nine yards. I heard it depends on your region/district and some rules are state wide.

Can someone elaborate what they know.
"Baseball is like breathing, you need it to live" Go WAHOOS!!!!!
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quote:
Practical measure?
New VHSL rule allows nearly year-round practice
By Jeremy Stafford - jstafford@nvdaily.com
Posted July 13, 2011


In late February the Virginia High School League approved a measure that may jump-start the evolution of local athletics even as it begins the slow, inevitable decimation of the versatile three-sport athlete.

The measure will take effect Aug. 1, and will enable high school coaches to work with their athletes nearly year-round -- with the exception of four dead periods and every Sunday.

At the start of each athletics season -- that is, from the first practice of an in-season sport -- out-of-season practices will observe a 10-day dead period, contrived to allow athletes time to try out for, and practice with, an in-season team without having to be concerned with an out-of-season sport. There are three such dead periods.

A fourth dead period will occur during the first week of the National Federation of State High School Association's standardized calendar year, which typically starts in early July.

During a dead period, a coach is allowed no contact with his athletes within the context of that coach's respective sport.

For the remaining 270-plus days of the year, a coach can hold practices with a team or teaching clinics with an individual.

Under the original statute, which allowed for no out-of-season practices, but did allow for conditioning sessions and open gyms, it became too difficult for the VHSL to monitor coaches' involvement with teams in the offseason. Furthermore, it was difficult to distinguish a team practice from a conditioning session.

The benefits of this new measure are obvious: "It gives kids the opportunity to grow and develop," Sherando girls basketball coach Kevin Reed said. "It's no different from when a kid is allowed to be tutored in the summer, or to get extra help.

"I don't know why it's taken so long to be applied to sports."

The rule change allows Reed, about to begin his second season at Sherando, the luxury of building off the success the Warriors saw when they set a school record for wins in a season last year. It also allows athletes like Sherando rising senior Morgan Sirbaugh, who is looking to play basketball in college, the convenience of being able to work with Reed whenever she'd like.

But here's the problem: While the VHSL's rule requires out-of-season teams to remain idle only during the four dead periods, it also allows for regions and districts to establish further sanctions on their own schools. In all of Group AA, only Region II has done so.

Under the Region II sanction, teams in the Northwestern, Dulles, Evergreen and Jefferson districts are allowed only 15 days of out-of-season practice prior to a season, 15 days of practice following a season, and 10 days of practice during the summer.

To recap: Region I, III and IV teams must remain idle for a minimum of about 40 days; Region II teams are given a maximum of only 40 days of extra practice.

This puts local teams at a severe disadvantage should they make the Group AA state tournament.

"It could be tough to handle once you get out of our region," Millbrook s****r coach Keith Kilmer said. "It could be an unfair advantage."

Kilmer further explained that there are wrinkles in the measure that the VHSL, and the various regions, are still ironing out. Because the rule change is so radical, and because it affects athletics programs so substantially, nothing, as of yet, is impervious to modification.

"I'll be honest, at this point I don't think anything has been, 'OK, here we go, this is how it's going to be,'" Kilmer said. "I think they're still adjusting it and massaging it and manipulating it to what is best for the students.

"I really think they're trying to make this as good as they can, and as fair as they can."

In any case, having an extra month of practice, even if it is demonstrably minute compared with the allowance given every other school in Group AA, is still enthralling for coaches, and it still provides teams and players the opportunity to improve tremendously in the offseason.

"Until this point we've only been allowed to do conditioning and open gyms," Handley boys s****r coach Cosmo Balio said. "Now you're telling me I get a month's worth of practice through the offseason?

"I'm excited to do that."

What might not be so exciting is the effect this practice mandate may have on the three-sport athletes, which make up so many of this area's teams. Because such athletes might lack the time and flexibility to participate in out-of-season practices, they could be more inclined to specialize in only one or two sports.

Calls made to Region B athletic directors, whose schools are far more dependent on multiple-sport athletes than are Group AA schools, were not returned.

But perhaps this single-sport specialization has been a developing trend that's only now beginning to gain momentum -- or at least notice.

"Personally, I think that's where kids have been headed before this rule was put in place," Reed said. "Coming from Loudoun County, it's natural for a kid to be sport specific. Anytime a kid has a goal to play in college, they should be sport specific.

"But I take pride in, after nine years of coaching high school, I've never told a kid that they shouldn't play a sport."

Not every coach has such a fair-minded demeanor. Indeed, while many area coaches are thrilled about the opportunity to spend an extra month with their teams, there's a growing concern that they'll lose many of their multiple-sport athletes -- sometimes at the behest of another coach.

The concern works like this: While out-of-season practices aren't mandatory, an athlete's failure to attend a certain number of practices -- even if the athlete is committed to an in-season sport -- could presumably affect playing time or even starting positions in athletic seasons yet-to-come.

"I think there's a possibility, unfortunately, that there could be some coaches that might want to persuade players to come to one sport," Kilmer said. "I personally have found that players play better for me when they go off and play other things, and then come back to me.

"There's a risk that I could lose some players -- that's always a possibility."

Perhaps just as worrying is the concern that those athletes who decide to become sport specific might quickly lose their enthusiasm for a sport they at one time played only a handful of months out of the year. This is particularly troubling for volleyball, s****r and basketball players, who often play on club and Amateur Athletic Union teams in addition to their high school teams.

This kind of focus can lead to overexposure -- the athlete gets burned out, as they say -- and can hinder the performance of an entire team.

"Are we going to over train them?" Balio said. "There may not be a difference between a kid coming in Sept. 3 to gear up for a season versus the day we have real tryouts -- I don't think that excitement is there.

"Would the football team throw pads on in February? There's lots of question marks that need answered."

At least one concern has been dealt with recently.

Under the initial measure, if a high school coach coached even one of his high school athletes on a club or AAU team, the practices for that club team would count toward the 40 days of out-of-season practices allotted to that coach under the Region II statute.

Kilmer was most affected by this: He said about a third of his Winchester United s****r team comprises Millbrook s****r players. His club s****r practices this coming fall, under the February rule, would have consumed the entirety of Millbrook's allotted out-of-season practices.

Last week, the rule was changed to allow coaches like Kilmer the chance to remain with their club teams without penalty, as long as the club team is not made entirely of that coach's high school team.

"I think there was a strong outcry from Loudoun County people more than anybody," Kilmer said. "Nothing's written in stone yet -- [the VHSL] is still waiting to get people's thoughts, and I'll applaud them for that.

"They didn't jump and say, 'This is the bible, this is what it is.'"

But there's little the VHSL can do to deter athletes from becoming sport specific. With so many athletes hoping to garner athletic scholarships in college, it only makes sense, now that they have the opportunity, to practice one sport year-round with their coach and team.

Sherando graduate Krista DeCeault, for example, at one time ran cross country in the fall, played basketball in the winter, and played s****r in the spring. By her senior year she had given up basketball and s****r and participated instead with Sherando's indoor and outdoor track teams. By becoming sport specific, she won a Group AA state title in the 3,200 -meter run and earned a Division I scholarship to run at Illinois State University.

This, it seems, will become the norm in the coming years. And the predomination of the three-sport athlete, once a boasting point for local athletics, is quickly fading out of existence, and may soon become an obsolete peculiarity.

"It's really going to go by the wayside in a couple years," Balio said. "I don't know if it's the parents' mindset of, 'We need to focus on one sport if we want to have a college scholarship,' or not. Sure, we want that special kid that has honed his skills, but we'll also take the all-around athlete.

"That's the way our society has gone -- we're so quick to place accolades on kids when they're 10, and we're not giving them a chance to expand. ... It's weird that we're doing that to kids, and this rule enhances it."
Last edited by TCWPreps
I was at a meeting with some baseball coaches last week in NOVA. I believe they are restricted to 12 coaching opportunities with in an out of sport season during the non black out periods. So baseball has 12 sessions in the fall and winter to work with their teams. It was also mentioned that scrimmages and even situations with all nine players on the field is prohibited.
Last edited by bxbomber
The way i believe things are going to be in the central virginia area, is kind of the same as this you put on here bxbomber, they are allowed 12 days to work with players, and unless the players are in a league there are to be no scrimmages or schools will be fined up to $1500. Also unlike NOVA, i found that there is no more teams where a coach can coach and just have a certain number of players from another school, that no longer exist. At least this is what i am hearing.

And from what things sound like, what could have been a great rule, has basically been handed down by VHSL to just say here it is and oh yeah each region and conference go ahead and put your own policies in. I hear in Region 1 AA they get 12 days and Region 2 AA gets 15 days, now where is the advantage going, all AA schools have to play in the state tourney if they qualify from their region, but to me it seems like a unfair advantage where some regions would have more practice dates then others.
Last edited by right arm of zeus
quote:
Can someone explain the coaching rules from vhsl


Not really.

Seriously, though - I have a hard copy of the NR paper on my desk, and I will tell all that it (the "rule") is an excellent example of VHSL & NR bureaucratic nonsense. FWIW, why even have a VHSL ruling if the clinically insane NR continues to pile on it's own bizarre restrictions? /rant off

Anyway, here's the rule in short - starting this school year, there are times in which coaches can have limited contact w/student athletes in a given sport, there are times in which the coaches may supervise a sport related activity, and there are times in which there is NO allowed sport/team/coach activity, and these dates are to be listed on the VHSL website...
Jess,

You may not agree with the rule--frankly, I'm not sure what I think about it myself--but the restrictions are not bizarre.

As far as I'm concerned, competitiveness of NR teams at the state tournament is totally irrelevant. Only two teams will get that far, and by then their coaches will have had three months to mold their teams into their image. My school hasn't sniffed a regional final in probably half a century, so I think the teams that get that far can jolly well look out for themselves.

However, 80% of the other teams go into the season with zero chance of advancing to the state tournament. Many of these schools have coaches who would like to exert more year-round control over their players, and many players have legitimate reasons to play in a different situation outside the high school season--either they aspire to play in college and the high school coach can't or won't help them with development or recruiting, or they're trapped in a supporting role on the high school team and want to find a summer team on which they have a chance to start or to learn a different position.

The rule is designed in part to protect these players from coercion to play on their hs coaches' summer teams. I doubt my son would have had a chance to play in college if his year-round baseball had been managed/controlled by his high school coach and he'd had to play with his high school teammates year round.

It's true that the rule will have other consequences, such as limiting the coaches' opportunity to develop kids who otherwise would not become varsity contributers. But there is a valid purpose to the rule. There's lots of room for spirited debate about whether the rule goes too far or not far enough. Like I said, I haven't made up my mind. But it's not bizarre that they have some rules.

(Realistically, any off-season practices are likely to increase the gap between the haves and the have nots. Coaches who currently use practice time wisely and efficiently will figure out how to use off-season opportunities to best advantage; those who don't won't. Quality of leadership will always be the difference maker.)
Swamp,
FWIW, I don't agree w/the NR rule - and as a matter of point, I have found it, well, silly that the VHSL allows "regions" to rewrite/write their own rules.
You mention first that NR competitiveness is irrelevant, but then apologize for "your" school - the reality is that except for Football (which has it's own very different structure), the NR is noteworthy for it's lack of championships on a % of population basis...

That being said, I doubt that most HS students are in sports for scholarships or championships - regardless of their respective coaches wishes for off season teams or no.

The reality is that the NR's "rule" is crafted (by coaches)to make $ for the coaches - primarily in basketball, softball, and field hockey (the non football sports w/the most competition for scholarships - frankly, Baseball is barely on the radar).

I've worked w/local basketball for 2+ decades, and I can tell you that one can count on one or two fingers the # of HS coaches in the greater DC area who have attempted to "control" their offseason teams (where this is allowed), and with each attempt, the better players have simply moved on to AAU/And1/Nike programs - and become vastly better players. The coaches who try to deny that sort of development aren't coaches for very long...
Jess,

You bring up a lot of things worth thinking about. And I think we might see sort of eye-to-eye on some things.

For example, I agree that the money issue is a mess. I don't approve of the way coaches get around the rules against off-season instruction by becoming instructors at commercial facilities and then encourage their entire team to sign up for the group sessions they teach. If the coaches aren't supposed to be working with their teams, what changes to make it suddenly okay as long as they move off-site and charge the parents a couple hundred dollars? And when the players involved have iffy prospects for making the team in the spring, "encouraging" them to pay for these team sessions is morally squishy at best.

I don't know enough to have an opinion whether this situation was the intended consequence of the rule or if it's just the only authorized workaround the coaches could find. However, I think the financial conflicts would increase if coaches were allowed to run summer teams populated by their high school players.

I also agree with you that the college-aspiring athletes are only a tiny fraction of the population. In fact, that was part of my point. I was trying to say that players all along the skill/talent spectrum have legitimate reasons not to be under their high school coach's control in the off season. For every elite player who wants to go off and play in front of scouts, there are lots of marginal players who want to play "down" to Little League Seniors or Babe Ruth so they can actually get in the game. There are also legitimate varsity players who want to play "up" to legion ball. Still others just want a break from baseball so they can go to scout/music/computer camp. And there are probably others who want to play for a different NVTBL program just because it's fun to play in a fresh environment with different coaches.

At many schools, players in all these categories already face pressure to play in the "franchise" NVTBL program approved by their high school coach. I don't want to give coaches a freer hand to upgrade the pressure to actual coercion.

That's why I brought up the example of my kids' school. We probably have one or more player in every one of these categories. Lots of different kids with different goals. But one thing they have in common is they know they're not going to play in the state tournament next year. They all know it's okay for the family to go to the beach for Memorial Day. A rule change that increases the probability that a Northern Region team will win the state title is a bad deal for them if it reduces their freedom to choose their off-season team. That's what I meant when I said state level competitiveness is irrelevant. It's irrelevant to 100% of the kids at the 80% of schools that know up front they're not going to states.
Last edited by Swampboy
The problem isn't with the group of coaches who don't try to control the kids in the off-season. The problem is with the group that DO try it. Like anything its always the ones who abuse the system that mess it up for the rest.

Both my son and I have liked the break that we get from the coach in the off-season. He wasn't really keen on his first varsity coach but the one he has now he really likes but he still likes the break. It allows him to pick his coach and showcase team that best fits HIS style of play and for the last few years that has worked to the point of him now moving on to college ball.

I'm not going to lump all HS coaches into the same mold but I can tell you that our showcase team coaches cannot be matched. Because of the freedom of choice that we had he was able to land with a coach who utilized his talents in a way that neither of his HS coaches has over the last 3 years and because of it he has become a much different player during those summer/fall months. Not meaning that his HS coaches are bad because they aren't but simply because of the talent around him during the summer/fall season he is able to be utilized in a much different manner and even positions.

For me, I am not in favor of rule changes that increase the amount of time that HS coaches can exhibit control over their players, or potential players, during the off-season... Just too much room for abuse of the players who do not have the skill to, in essence, call a coach's bluff and go about their own schedule during the off-season. Because we all know that it is not normally the stud player who ends up getting hurt at the end of the day but rather the borderline player who is trying to climb the ladder...
"For me, I am not in favor of rule changes that increase the amount of time that HS coaches can exhibit control over their players, or potential players, during the off-season"

Not to be too disagreeable, but is this really such an issue? Really? Other parts of the US have lesser to no such restrictions whatsoever, yet I've not seen massive numbers of "School" baseball teams @ East Cobb, nor such basketball squads even back in the early Nike HS days...

It (coach "control" in offseason) isn't an issue elsewhere. Why would it be so here?
Jess,

Having a different opinion doesn't make you disagreeable, but you would argue more agreeably if you addressed the reasons NOVABBall13 and I have for believing too much off-season control could be contrary to the interests of many players.

Besides, wherever did you get the idea that Virginia or Northern Region are alone in these restrictions?

Look up the rules for other states. We're not alone. Here's a quote from the bylaws for the state hs association in Illinois, which was the first state I picked at random to check:
"No school belonging to this Association shall organize its teams, practice, scrimmage or participate in any interscholastic sport outside of the season limitations as prescribed in Section 5.000 of these By-Laws; nor shall any person who coaches any sport at a member school, coach or supervise a non-school team in any interscholastic sport composed of students from that school, except within the guidelines promulgated by the IHSA Board of Directors."
Swamp,
Perhaps it's me, then. I'm questioning the NR's additional rules beyond VHSL, and I quite frankly disagree w/the notion that the NR should have more restrictions than the balance of the Commonwealth.
As to Illinois - a number of northern states do allow (and offer) organized HS Summer baseball (along w/other outdoor sports).
Jess,

Like you, I would prefer uniform rules across the state, but I'm okay with the region taking the lead if they don't think the state rules serve student interests well.

Our differences of opinion seem to be over whether there's a need to insulate coaches from their players in the off-season and whether the benefits, if any, of doing so are more important than the effect on the region's success in state championship play. There is reasonable ground on both sides of both questions. I can live with that.

Best wishes.
Last edited by Swampboy
What about charging $160 for 15 hours of a lacrosse clinic run by the assistant hs lacrosse coach. The email I recieved stated


Who should participate in the clinic?
- Returning Varsity players who want to excel in the upcoming season
- Players entering high school and want to compete for a roster spot

Am I off base thinking this sounds like a hostage situation? Is this legal according to VHSL?
I am thinking that it's open to everyone and attendance is not mandatory. At least that's the answer that will be given if anyone asks.

The baseball team has had 5:30 AM workouts in the school gym starting January 1. It's open to everyone but curiously only baseball players show up. Of course it's optional but so far I don't think anyone has tested to see what happens if they sleep in. Pair that up with the sessions at one of the local hitting cages. The tuba player could show up and they might take his $5 and let him hold a bat and pick up balls.

I am sure these stories are out there for everything.

It's all legit if you want to question legalities. Is it ethical? Well I'll suggest lot's of folks believe if you ain't cheatin you ain't tryin.

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