What is considered fair, good and great pop up times for high school catchers?
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
2.0 is generally the threshold for a high school catcher to try to break. Sub-2.0, consistently and accurately, will get you looks and consideration from most D-1 programs.
The elite ground among high school catchers is the 1.8x range.
The elite ground among high school catchers is the 1.8x range.
IndependantsMom,
Good question. It is actually called “poptime” ---- Pop UP makes sense since the catcher does pop-up but the actual phrase is “poptime” or “pop to pop time” meaning the elapsed time from the “pop” or the sound of the catcher’s mitt when he receives the pitch until the “pop” of the infielder’s mitt when he receives the throw down. I apologize for being over critical but explaining the name might help give you a better understanding about how it works.
On the actual time I will be a little more liberal that FloridaHokie. It’s my feeling that a high school catcher can be an effective catcher with a 2.15 to a 2.2 poptime in a game situation. Many college catchers can be effective at the 2.0 or slightly higher but I think most college catchers can throw down in the 1.9 to 2.0 with some getting as low as the 1.7s. I agree with FloridaHokie in that I think most D-1 college coaches look for the sub 2.0 catchers.
Fungo
Good question. It is actually called “poptime” ---- Pop UP makes sense since the catcher does pop-up but the actual phrase is “poptime” or “pop to pop time” meaning the elapsed time from the “pop” or the sound of the catcher’s mitt when he receives the pitch until the “pop” of the infielder’s mitt when he receives the throw down. I apologize for being over critical but explaining the name might help give you a better understanding about how it works.
On the actual time I will be a little more liberal that FloridaHokie. It’s my feeling that a high school catcher can be an effective catcher with a 2.15 to a 2.2 poptime in a game situation. Many college catchers can be effective at the 2.0 or slightly higher but I think most college catchers can throw down in the 1.9 to 2.0 with some getting as low as the 1.7s. I agree with FloridaHokie in that I think most D-1 college coaches look for the sub 2.0 catchers.
Fungo
I've timed a lot of MLB catchers in game situations, and they are almost always right at about 2.0, give or take 5 hundredths of a second.
I've seen lots of simulated pop times recorded in the sub 2.0 range, which I am sure are accurate times as far as the simulation goes, but doesn't directly translate into game pop times.
In games, not only is there a batter up there, possibly swinging, but a good catcher will also stay down until the ball is caught so as not to obscure the umpire and possibly take away a strike.
In simulated situations, I've seen a good bit of "cheating" by positioning feet before the pitch is caught.
So I take simulated pop times with a grain of salt, because the catcher, knowing he's going to throw down, often changes mechanics in a way that are improper, in order to record a lower time.
So, the best way to really get a good pop time measure is to videotape a game, wait for a steal, and then time it using the frame-by-frame playback. 60 frames = 2.0 seconds. It is the most accurate method I know of.
If you have Tivo you can do the same thing for MLB catchers. Just rewind and play it back in frame by frame.
I've done it more times than I can remember, and it is my experience that 2.0 is pretty much a MLB standard in game situations.
My view: take simulated pop time measures with a grain of salt. Look at ball speed out of the crouch, pay attention to footwork and transition efficiency, and if you can, get a game pop time recording.
I've seen lots of simulated pop times recorded in the sub 2.0 range, which I am sure are accurate times as far as the simulation goes, but doesn't directly translate into game pop times.
In games, not only is there a batter up there, possibly swinging, but a good catcher will also stay down until the ball is caught so as not to obscure the umpire and possibly take away a strike.
In simulated situations, I've seen a good bit of "cheating" by positioning feet before the pitch is caught.
So I take simulated pop times with a grain of salt, because the catcher, knowing he's going to throw down, often changes mechanics in a way that are improper, in order to record a lower time.
So, the best way to really get a good pop time measure is to videotape a game, wait for a steal, and then time it using the frame-by-frame playback. 60 frames = 2.0 seconds. It is the most accurate method I know of.
If you have Tivo you can do the same thing for MLB catchers. Just rewind and play it back in frame by frame.
I've done it more times than I can remember, and it is my experience that 2.0 is pretty much a MLB standard in game situations.
My view: take simulated pop time measures with a grain of salt. Look at ball speed out of the crouch, pay attention to footwork and transition efficiency, and if you can, get a game pop time recording.
quote:So, the best way to really get a good pop time measure is to videotape a game, wait for a steal, and then time it using the frame-by-frame playback. 60 frames = 2.0 seconds. It is the most accurate method I know of.
Rob your methods sounds good to me. I used to use a little different method (in high school). I used to video the game and play back the game with the audio at max. Using my stop watch I could measure the poptime using the "pop" of the catcher's mitt and the pop of the infielder's glove. You can do it visually from the same tape if you want but I always preferred the audio. Once he got to college nobody ever asked me what his "poptime" was on his throw downs or his "hang time" on his football punts. --- By the way, does anybody wanna buy a good digital stop-watch and a TV with blown speakers??
Fungo
quote:By the way, does anybody wanna buy a good digital stop-watch and a TV with blown speakers??
Now that's funny
I have an exceptional catcher with a hose! SIBullets timed him when we went down South for a game. His pop times were with speedsters running and sub 2. I'll let SIBullets post his pop times if he wishes. Several professional teams have been following him since they've seen him throw. Video would be nice but at our facilities, I don't know how you can accurately video the runner, throw, and catcher at the same time. Of course, some schools are set up to do so.
Rob, I urge you not to discount "game simulated" pop times ... they can still be valuable
and, guy's I'm with you on the tivo ...
tv quality satellite signals travel the speed of light & tivo records @ 30 frames per second
I would just not rely on personal vcr to be reliable ...
although during a 2 second period it ought to be within reason (maybe?).
we noticed this recording basketball with the clock in the field of view. a 10% error was not uncommon recording plugged in to 110V.
recording on battery & playing back on vcr, it was usual for the tape to run faster than the clock. (tape time was faster than real time)
we tried figuring it out but failed as it even varied between like models ...
but after all this time, today I think I'm on to something
I believe the accuracy is directly related to the friction reducing quality of the ball bearings used in the internal components, & the care with which they were assembled ...
I'd welcome oppinions on my theory
and, guy's I'm with you on the tivo ...
tv quality satellite signals travel the speed of light & tivo records @ 30 frames per second
I would just not rely on personal vcr to be reliable ...
although during a 2 second period it ought to be within reason (maybe?).
we noticed this recording basketball with the clock in the field of view. a 10% error was not uncommon recording plugged in to 110V.
recording on battery & playing back on vcr, it was usual for the tape to run faster than the clock. (tape time was faster than real time)
we tried figuring it out but failed as it even varied between like models ...
but after all this time, today I think I'm on to something
I believe the accuracy is directly related to the friction reducing quality of the ball bearings used in the internal components, & the care with which they were assembled ...
I'd welcome oppinions on my theory
BOTTOM LINE FOR POP TIMES
You still have to throw out runners in the game regardless of what the stopwatch says
Folks, baseball is not that difficult--too many are trying to make it what it is not
You still have to throw out runners in the game regardless of what the stopwatch says
Folks, baseball is not that difficult--too many are trying to make it what it is not
True TR, but you have to remember throwing out runners isn't something that only involves the catcher. As a catcher, I could have 15% of runners being out with every one of my throws being online and early. Or late, but online with a time of 1.9/ 2.0. There are a lot of factors that go into throwing out a runner.
The pitcher and infielder has to keep the runner close. The catcher has to catch it cleanly and make a good throw. And the infielder has to field the ball and make the tag quickly.
The pitcher and infielder has to keep the runner close. The catcher has to catch it cleanly and make a good throw. And the infielder has to field the ball and make the tag quickly.
Personally I am sick of hearing about pop time.It is almost as abused as "he throws 90".If you really want to know how good a catcher is, time 20 game situation throws, pop to tag placement(glove at the bag),if you drop a ball it is a 2.5,if it goes into the outfield it is a 2.5, average them and then you will know if he can effectively throw out runners.
Coachb25:
Actually it is pretty simple to videotape a pop time - no need to worry about the runner. A camera position behind home plate (or just off to the side) is fine. When you play it back, you can easily see the frame the ball enters the catcher's glove, and then frame forward until it hits the fielder's glove.
It can easily be done with a handheld consumer video camera.
The best part is you can also get an accurate read on release time. From TIVO, the MLB catchers I have timed were all right around 20 frames, which is .66 seconds. From what I have seen, it is easier to shave time off the release than it is to reduce time by increasing arm strength, so it is good to know if the release time is higher than it should be.
It even enables you (if you care to do so) to back into a pretty darned accurate estimate of average velocity, from which you can further calculate initial velocity.
I know, I know, TRHit, you think this makes it all too complicated. But I disagree.
Sure, it is an important test whether you are throwing guys out.... but there are so many variables that the catcher does not control in whether or not a runner is thrown out.
If a catcher wants to get better, he can use video to accurately identify where he can shave time off the pop time. It is very useful.
That is why golfers use video and computer swing analyis. It has improved the understanding of the golf swing (and the quality of instruction) immeasurably.
I wouldn't tell a sprinter that all he has to worry about is whether he is winning races. I'm still going to time him, videotape his technique and work to make it better, see where we could shave hundredths off his starting time, etc. Or at least I would if I knew the first thing about sprinting
Actually it is pretty simple to videotape a pop time - no need to worry about the runner. A camera position behind home plate (or just off to the side) is fine. When you play it back, you can easily see the frame the ball enters the catcher's glove, and then frame forward until it hits the fielder's glove.
It can easily be done with a handheld consumer video camera.
The best part is you can also get an accurate read on release time. From TIVO, the MLB catchers I have timed were all right around 20 frames, which is .66 seconds. From what I have seen, it is easier to shave time off the release than it is to reduce time by increasing arm strength, so it is good to know if the release time is higher than it should be.
It even enables you (if you care to do so) to back into a pretty darned accurate estimate of average velocity, from which you can further calculate initial velocity.
I know, I know, TRHit, you think this makes it all too complicated. But I disagree.
Sure, it is an important test whether you are throwing guys out.... but there are so many variables that the catcher does not control in whether or not a runner is thrown out.
If a catcher wants to get better, he can use video to accurately identify where he can shave time off the pop time. It is very useful.
That is why golfers use video and computer swing analyis. It has improved the understanding of the golf swing (and the quality of instruction) immeasurably.
I wouldn't tell a sprinter that all he has to worry about is whether he is winning races. I'm still going to time him, videotape his technique and work to make it better, see where we could shave hundredths off his starting time, etc. Or at least I would if I knew the first thing about sprinting
CoachB. Your right about your kid having a hose. He has the best arm I have seen this year. I had him at no more than 1.95 and as low as 1.83 throughout the game and warmups and I am generally conservative with my times. Not only does he have a great arm but he has good feet and no wasted motion.
quote:Personally I am sick of hearing about pop time.It is almost as abused as "he throws 90".
Ragarm,
Baseball is a very simple and basic sport that is played using just a four physical actions ---- running, throwing, hitting, and catching ---- but somehow this simple and basic game becomes complicated by the thousands of variations of those four actions and the hundreds of different ways people accomplish, view, describe, analyze, and teach those actions. Add in the different ages of the players from pre high school to professional baseball and the different levels of competition and suddenly you start to see that catching a pitched baseball and then throwing that baseball down to second base before the runner arrives requires a lot of discussion. My son has been doing these basic things for close to twenty years now and he is still consumed by this simple game. At this very moment he’s adjusting his catching equipment and practicing his throw downs to second base hundreds of miles away from where I sit at this computer. I’ll listen to his game on the internet and provide what little support I can from afar. You may be sick of hearing about “poptime” but as the parent of a catcher I owe to my son and every other catcher and their parents to continue the interest in what you say makes you sick. I’m sorry but this goes deeper than “just catching and throwing a baseball” to me. Now, what were you saying about pitching velocity?
Fungo
As a parent of a catcher I understand the interest in pop times. Just like parents of pitchers and pitchers alike are very interested in gun readings for pitchers velocity. The pop time for a catcher is a measureing stick. He knows that an accurate 2.0 is the benchmark as 90 for a pitcher seems to be. It seems everytime we discuss velocity readings for pitchers we hear the following "But if he cant locate and change speeds he will be raked". "If the ball goes into centerfield what difference does it make"? The bottom line is very few HS catchers will ever throw a legit 2.0. In spite of what others tell you it is rare when you factor in the amount of kids that catch at the HS level and the amount of kids that can in fact throw a 2.0. Just as it is for kids to throw 90 from the hill. It is a goal to work towards. Once a kid reaches that goal they can work towards throwing that 1.9 and then that 1.85 etc etc. Without goals and measureing sticks what are you working towards? And whats wrong with having goals to set your sights on? When my son was an 8th grader he was 2.2. His goal was to throw a 2.0. As a freshman he was consistently 2.1. This year as a soph he is consistently a 2.0 and has thrown some 1.9s in practice and between innings and recorded some 2.0's in game action. Now his goal is to throw consistently in the 1.9 1.85 range. I hope he is never satisfied. I hope he always has a goal to get better and better. If you dont know where you are and where you want to go how do you get better?
Coach May,
A very good explanation.
Fungo
A very good explanation.
Fungo
quote:The bottom line is very few HS catchers will ever throw a legit 2.0.
I'd extend/amend this to say: very few HS catchers will ever throw a legit 2.0 in a game. Nor will anybody know if he did.
As I've said: I've measured a bunch (I'd estimate it to be about 25) MLB throwdowns in game situations. I don't recall ever seeing one below 1.9, which would be 56 frames on the old TIVO.
So to think there are a bunch of high schoolers out there tossing 2.0's I simply don't buy. Not in games where it counts. Simulations, yes.
Can he hit? That's number 1. Defense is secondary. Work on being the best hitter he can be and worry about defense second.
wvmtner, is that how Mike Matheny and Yadier Molina are still playing Major League baseball? Last I checked Yadier had a batting average of like .150.
Also, when Matheny was in St Louis, they always commented on how he was such a good defensive catcher that any offense he put up was a bonus. 4 Gold Gloves in a row later he's still playing in the "Big Time" without much of a bat.
Also, when Matheny was in St Louis, they always commented on how he was such a good defensive catcher that any offense he put up was a bonus. 4 Gold Gloves in a row later he's still playing in the "Big Time" without much of a bat.
I always thought Defense got you into a college, and if you could hit that made you bigtime D1. Defense is what catching is all about in my opinion. Too many things run through a catcher to have a catcher as a liability.
The kid that catches but is not very good defensively but can mash ends up as the dh and bull pen catcher. If you want to play behind the plate you had better be very good on the d side. If you can also mash then you are a hot commodity thats for sure.
I can tell you that we will sacrifice offense to have catchers who can "catch and throw" as well as handle the staff
I agree with you all that after you get drafted or get to college then the defensive part takes over.
I can name you several catchers that are top prospects that are hit first, defense second. A lot of them may not be able to remain behind the plate according to scouting reports because of their lack of catching skills. They were drafted as catchers because the could hit and just happend to be catching.
You can't deny it if you look at the stats. Matheney has been a great catcher for a long time. I don't know but I bet he was hitting when he was drafted.
If you would like to pm, I could tell you about a few catchers I know that were great defensively but there were questions about their bats so they either didn't make it to the big leagues or were not drafted.
I can name you several catchers that are top prospects that are hit first, defense second. A lot of them may not be able to remain behind the plate according to scouting reports because of their lack of catching skills. They were drafted as catchers because the could hit and just happend to be catching.
You can't deny it if you look at the stats. Matheney has been a great catcher for a long time. I don't know but I bet he was hitting when he was drafted.
If you would like to pm, I could tell you about a few catchers I know that were great defensively but there were questions about their bats so they either didn't make it to the big leagues or were not drafted.
wvmtner
This is not true at the high school and college levels-- a solid defensive catcher makes the pitchers better--if he hits it is a bonus
This is not true at the high school and college levels-- a solid defensive catcher makes the pitchers better--if he hits it is a bonus
quote:Originally posted by Coach May:
The kid that catches but is not very good defensively but can mash ends up as the dh and bull pen catcher. If you want to play behind the plate you had better be very good on the d side. If you can also mash then you are a hot commodity thats for sure.
Or the catcher ends up at first base third base or left field if he can run at all. Ben Davis was taken in the first round because of his bat from both sides and even though he's been in the big leagues forever, he's called a draft disappointment!
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
wvmtner
This is not true at the high school and college levels-- a solid defensive catcher makes the pitchers better--if he hits it is a bonus
High School maybe. That's only if the team does not have another catcher that can hit.
WV
You can believe what you want--I simpole know what I know-- we build our team up the middle-- solid defense at C/SS/2b/CF--
Perhaps you do it differently in southern cal
DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DiFFeRent FOLKS!!!
You can believe what you want--I simpole know what I know-- we build our team up the middle-- solid defense at C/SS/2b/CF--
Perhaps you do it differently in southern cal
DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DiFFeRent FOLKS!!!
Both of you are right here. Every good team will make sure they are strong up the middle first. If they can mash thats a bonus. The bottom line is the catcher sets the tone defensively and makes pitchers better if he is very good at what he does. He must be very good on the d side and if he can hit thats a bonus. Now if he is not very good on the d side but he can mash you find a place for him. First base third base left field DH. It is true that alot of kids are drafted as catchers because they are great hitters not because they are outstanding behind the plate. They end up at other posistions at the next level because defense is the priority behind the plate. I have had catchers that could not hit their weight in HS but they were in the line up because of their defense. If they were a catcher but not very good defensively but they could hit I found a place in the line up for them. The bottom line is if you can hit you will be in the line up. And if your a catcher that is outstanding behind the plate you dont have to be a masher to play. But if you are both you are very valuable that is for sure.
Fungo I think maybe you misunderstood where I was coming from.I am also the parent of a catcher.I watched close to 30 Juco games this past fall and spring.I saw way too many past balls and poorly thrown balls not just from our team but most of their opponents also.My point was that there is so importance put on pop time, which is only a small part of what makes a catcher.
ragarm
Would you agree that all too many HS and collegiate catchers are not good defensive players and hurt their pitchers and team because of it?
Too many coaches want big bats in the catcher but in the long run the lack of defense and ability to handle a pitcher hurts the team
Would you agree that all too many HS and collegiate catchers are not good defensive players and hurt their pitchers and team because of it?
Too many coaches want big bats in the catcher but in the long run the lack of defense and ability to handle a pitcher hurts the team
My son is a JUCO catcher. Recently told by DI coach that was interested in him that he was willing to sacrifice defense for offense. My son is a very solid defensive catcher (1st Team All Region, .989, blah , blah), but only batted .342 out of the 8 hole (plus 24 walks). Not good enough for this coach. My feeling is that the coach does his entire pitching staff a disservice, but what he looks for in a catcher is HITTING. After a couple of years of looking at things, I believe his attitude is the norm.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
WV
You can believe what you want--I simpole know what I know-- we build our team up the middle-- solid defense at C/SS/2b/CF--
Perhaps you do it differently in southern cal
DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DiFFeRent FOLKS!!!
TR
You know that you build your team the way you build your team. I'm not talking about your team. I'm talking about the majority of baseball not just in So Cal
There are a few exceptions but the game has changed over the last 10 years much to my distain also. I have always said that poor defense costs a team more runs that a hitter makes up.
That does not change the fact (And I don't like it either) that in TODAYS world you will be selected as a hitting catcher with poor defense faster than you will a defensive catcher with poor hitting.
I know what I know too and not from just the way I think or coach. I don't like it but it's reality and not just for catchers.
You said it yourself that too many coaches like the big bats. That's my point. It's not what we were taught and what's smart. Coaches think they can teach you to catch but it's harder to teach you to hit.
Maybe a bit better than average DI catcher at Southern Cal last year was the third overall pick of the draft. Signed for 3.4 million. He can MASH!
TR-yes sir I do.Very few that I have seen hit well enough to make up for the extra bases(which turn into runs)caused by past balls,dropped balls,and balls poorly throw on steal attempts.