catcher swaying

Don't sway and catch the pitch with arm extended from the body. Be back enough from the plate to give the umpire a good view. Try to stay as low as possible.

There is nothing worse than a catcher that moves after an umpire becomes set unless he has to.

Believe it when we say we want to call strikes.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimi Hendrix:
Don't sway and catch the pitch with arm extended from the body...

The whole purpose of swaying is to NOT catch the ball with arm extended.

If a kid sways AND catches with his arm extended, it is most definitely a ball.

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:

quote:

Originally posted by Jimi Hendrix:
Don't sway and catch the pitch with arm extended from the body...

The whole purpose of swaying is to NOT catch the ball with arm extended.

If a kid sways AND catches with his arm extended, it is most definitely a ball.

They have two feet. They can move.

I'm not talking about catching the ball out to the side. I'm talking about catching the pitch out in front of the body. Catchers that set up too far inside on hitters really can take that inside slot away at times. A umpire likes to set up in the the same spot everytime, with his head the same height. It really helps keep the strike zone consistant.

Give me two good catchers back there and my day is much easier. We try to call the strike zone by the rule book, not by the tiny thing used in MLB.

BTW-You would be suprised the number of times a catcher can take a borderline strike away from a pitcher because he lacks the basic fundamentals.

The coaches that are teaching to sway are trying to give the catcher an advantage of having his body to help block the ball. The ones that want the catcher to reach out and catch it with his arm extended want the catcher to get as many stikes for his pitcher as possible.
As an umpire, I prefer teh latter so we can see it better, plus we can get more borderline strikes. With the former method the ball gets hidden more and will result in less strikes.
If a catcher needs to move to catch a ball and prevent passed balls then that's what he needs to do. If he has the skill and arm strength to catch out away from his body and not pull it, then he will get more strikes.

Isn't part of the answer based on the situation?

With no runners on base, I give up the "missed" pitch in the dirt in order to extend my arm and get a strike call. With runners on base, can the prudent catcher really afford to give that missed ball [now a passed ball* up? Good question.

TW344

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
The coaches that are teaching to sway are trying to give the catcher an advantage of having his body to help block the ball...

I disagree with this assumption. That is not why I teach our catchers to receive this way.

I would like to say great post guys, we actually teach our catchers to sway with runners on and reach with no one on.

I took most of this answer from a previous post of mine. That being said, I am not a fan of the swaying technique...

Many times young catchers taught to sway will do so before and during the pitch and not just at the end to catch a pitch.......

here is my advice for youth catchers...

Catch the ball....cant stress this enough, my job is to track the ball to your glove, if you are letting me get plunked or letting it get past you it is more difficult for me to do my job.....

Stay down, stay steady....if you are swaying back and forth or raising up, you are cutting down my field of view......cutting down my field of view costs your pitcher strikes.....

just my .02

Interesting thread.

Catchers should be taught to use both methods...swaying and the extended arm, as each has it's place.

The problem I see too often with the swaying technique is the catcher does it wrong or very badly. They sway from the waist up and end up tilting their shoulders, actually more of a lean to the side. They aren't swaying at the hips and keeping the shoulders level so while they may catch the ball in the middle (middle of chest protector is the goal of swaying), they tend to obstruct the umpire's view at times.

I tend to think of swaying as trying to frame with the body versus the glove. It starts with the stance; too narrow is very bad and too wide hurts how effective it is. Heels shoulder width apart and flat on the ground is a good starting point for most catchers. If done smoothly, swaying gives the impression the ball is hitting the the mitt dead center of the chest protector. No jerking, extending the arm excessively ( I do like catching the ball out front and not too close to the body )....smooth, like that is where the pitch is supposed to be. Track the ball with your eyes and not the glove also helps keep the glove action smooth.

Swaying works for pitches at the corners of the plate, not pitches too far off the plate. You might steal a strike a few inches outside, but not much further than that. Keep a strike a strike is what you're trying to do.

Smooth is the goal. As the game gets faster (85mph+), it becomes harder to do. If the pitcher is having troubles hitting the target that day, swaying becomes much less effective as the catcher is having to move too much and often where he doesn't expect it. Glove action and hands have to take over. On the days the pitcher is on his game and can hit anything, swaying done correctly is a thing of beauty and works wonders.

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
The coaches that are teaching to sway are trying to give the catcher an advantage of having his body to help block the ball...

I disagree with this assumption. That is not why I teach our catchers to receive this way.

OK, I'm willing to learn. If I am making a bad asumption then explain why you are teaching the sway method.
My point, and several others, is by moving to catch the ball center mass, you make it hard to see. If he has to do it to catch it then I prefer to lose a pitch or two and not get killed. In high varsity, college and adult baseball, I work behind some very good catchers that very rarely move to the pitch but catch it and stick it so we can see it. Most good catchers will say they are sorry when they know they took a pitch away from their pitcher.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
OK, I'm willing to learn. If I am making a bad asumption then explain why you are teaching the sway method.
My point, and several others, is by moving to catch the ball center mass, you make it hard to see. If he has to do it to catch it then I prefer to lose a pitch or two and not get killed. In high varsity, college and adult baseball, I work behind some very good catchers that very rarely move to the pitch but catch it and stick it so we can see it. Most good catchers will say they are sorry when they know they took a pitch away from their pitcher.

And Jorge Posada sways to every pitch...(just one of many examples)

Michael,
How are things in Salisbury...my Dad used to run the Koppers wood treating plant there years ago (think it may have been shut down by now). Spent many (way too many) nights over in Ocean City during the summer. Only lived there during the summers as I was in college at the time and honestly don't remember that much except getting into a fight at the McDonald's across from the Perdue chicken plant. Didn't the US Tennis Association used to hold the Indoor Championship in Salisbury?

Yes, the Indoors used to be here in the old Civic Center before it burned down. Then we had WTC events for a few years in the new one. Conners, Borg and others were here.
All in all things are good in Salisbury, other than my recent heart attack. Koppers is closed, as is the McDonald's that you mentioned. You should come through at some point, it has tripled in size since you were here.

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
OK, I'm willing to learn. If I am making a bad asumption then explain why you are teaching the sway method.
My point, and several others, is by moving to catch the ball center mass, you make it hard to see. If he has to do it to catch it then I prefer to lose a pitch or two and not get killed. In high varsity, college and adult baseball, I work behind some very good catchers that very rarely move to the pitch but catch it and stick it so we can see it. Most good catchers will say they are sorry when they know they took a pitch away from their pitcher.

And Jorge Posada sways to every pitch...(just one of many examples)

Redbird:
I wasn't looking for examples but reasons for why you teach it. Citing mechanics by major leaguers is like trying to learn mechanics from MLB umps. They do many things at that level that are unorthodixed but effective. The original question was from an umpire's perspective which should be taught or are there advantages to one over the other. You disagree with some of the answers, and that is fine, but you don't explain why you think your way is better. I am by no means an expert in teaching how to play baseball and am interested to learn more. I am an expert in teaching umpires and have stated my opinion on the question form that view.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
I wasn't looking for examples but reasons for why....

"Swaying" is covered in one of the instructional videos I've got. If done as taught it is very subtle, and would never hinder an umpire from calling a pitch. The purpose is to catch the ball such that the arm doesn't extend outside of the body. A catcher is taught to "sway" to get lined up with the pitch before it's half way to the plate so that all movement is finished before the ump's line of vision has shifted down far enough to see motion. It's a movement of only a few inches, if it takes more than that the pitcher has missed his spot and there's no reason to use this as an aide in framing the pitch.

It comes down to a question of whether an ump is more likely to call a pitch on the corner a strike if it's caught inside of the body, or with the arm extended out to the side.

IMO any movement other than glove to the ball on balls within the strike zone gives the umpire a reason to call a strike a ball. Your job as a catcher is to make sure that every strike is called a strike. You win with the "striball"; that pitch that could go either way. For most umpires corner pitches, fastballs just above the waist,breaking balls just below the waist, fastballs just below the hollow of the knees & breaking balls at the knees fall into that category. Most games are decided by 3-5 pitches & the 1-1,2-0,2-1 count that goes to 2-1,3-0 or 3-1 can be that pitch that turns a hitters at bat around & determines a game.It has been my experience that umpires are more likely to call strikes balls than balls strikes. When you sway, which usually occurs on balls away from RHH's, most umpires feel that the ball was out of the zone or moving out of the zone. This is a pitch that is tough for umpires to see because your body is between the umpire & the ball. With a LHH up & a RH pitcher, swaying to an outside pitch is even tougher for the umpire because the flight of the ball is not crossing the umpires line of sight so he has no real reference point. If you sway to catch balls inside you are moving right into the umpires sight line. It can be done if you are extremely low but is generally a bad idea. Bottom line is that most umpires will be better with less movement by catchers on balls in or near the strike zone.

JW

Jerry excellent post. I have always said keep a strike a strike. Balls are balls. Its those in between pitches that happen a few times a game you can get for your pitcher.

Jerry and Coach May bring up the problems with swaying done incorrectly. The less movement an umpire gets out of a catcher usually is better for the catcher.

StyleMismatch's last sentence is exactly the point and why catchers have to know each method.

The problem is rarely if ever will an umpire call a strike if the catcher catches a pitch outside his shin guards. Rarely is probably an exaggeration. Never on a fastball; possibly on a slow sweeping curve. Key is that any catcher movement must be early and smooth while the umpire's focus is on following the pitch to the plate. Too late and the movement is jerky and distacting.

Swaying done with the hips isn't very much (usually 3-4 inches) and catching the ball in front of your knees vs. close to the body maintains the umpires field of view of the strike zone; never does it look like the catcher is trying to hide the ball ( one of the criticisms I've heard about catching the ball close to the body). Smooth with level shoulders is the key; you lean at the waist and it's like raising up and losing the strike call....blue can't call what he can't see. Like I said in an earlier post, swaying is useless when a pitcher is struggling with his control and can't hit the side of the plate a catcher sets up on.

Umpires have really one job behind the plate and that is to call strikes (many don't signal anything but strikes) and to call outs. They really like to do this as the game moves faster. Sway or not, what/where does Blue want the pitch,etc. A smart catcher knows this and is why he has to adapt to the that day's strike zone quickly. Failure to do so makes for a long and frustrating day for everybody. Knowing how to talk to an umpire about a pitch is often as valuable a tool as any framing job the catcher has to do that day. Some umpires don't like that but those are the ones that think the game is about them; they don't really respect the catcher and feel threatened by questions. IMHO.

How to talk to the umpire would probably be an interesting thread for the catchers and umpires out there.....kinda like a Camp David Accord on the internet. Or start WW III.

From an umpires view, I will say I think swaying and or framing no matter how subtle are useless concerning balls and strikes.

From my coaching and playing experiences; many think that a good frame job will buy a strike, and I believe many coaches and fans believe the same.

From an umpire pespective, no it won't..

Yes, I watch the ball to the glove, but that is more a timing and good rule of thumb action in case of DTS, CI, and foul tip's for example.
IMO..

The pitch is called over the plate, prior to reaching the glove.

I've told many a catcher on that strike just inside the black, the one they hold forever. Hey, "don't wait for me, I'm kinda slow"

What will everyone in the stadium see on a frame job? The glove unmoving and right on the corner.
What did the umpire see? The ball clearly off the plate. Who the fans gonna believe? Well, we all no that one..

The perceptions, are and always will be bias.
Coaches and fans will soon believe their pitcher is being squeezed, and after enough moaning and groaning, so will the pitcher and catcher, they area quite influenced by adults reactions. What do fans and coaches see? The ball and then the glove.

Compared to an umpire who's tracking the flight of the ball.

In short, if your teaching framing or swaying, just remember what for. If it's for blocking, and defense good for you. If it's for buying begging,and inciting, tsk, tsk,IMO.

I coached for 17 years and attended many coaching clinics, not once did I ever hear a coach say while demonstrating the frame up or the sway techniques; "this is a great defensive manuever, it'll save you 3 stolen bases and two passed balls a game". But I did hear, "you can buy that border line pitch."

In all due deference and respect to all our esteemed men in blue behind the plate.....this may be heresy but umpires do make mistakes.

When all umpires call the strike zone the same way from inning to inning and game to game, I'm sure catchers will quit thinking about framing and swaying.

But until that glorious day is upon us, the battle for the strike zone will continue.

Until then, catchers will be like Moses...wandering/framing/swaying around for years seeking the Promised Land yet knowing they will never set foot in it.

Ohh, and another thing....don't worry about being "kinda slow"....catchers are used to making allowances.LOL

As a high school coach I teach our catchers to sway for several reasons.
1.By swaying our catchers can catch the ball in the center of their body and are in a stronger position to "stick" the pitch where it was thrown. (if a catcher carries the ball out of the strike zone you are less likely to get a called strike.)
2.By swaying our catchers become more aware of the strike zone. (if they can't sway to the ball, it was not a strike.)
3.By swaying and sticking, we eliminate catchers trying to bring pitches back into the strike zone. (we only sell strikes. anything else goes right back to the pitcher.)


On a side note...
We communicate with our catchers in a way as to not show up the umpires. With pitches on the corners that we feel might have been close, we may ask our catcher if that ball was out/in. He always answers yes, but if he thought it was a strike he will put his hand on his chest. This way our catcher does not show up an umpire and we can get the information we need from him. We had an umpire upset at us for doing this saying, "we know your signs coach and you're not fooling us." I tried to explain to him why we did it but he wanted nothing of it.
What are your thoughts on this?

Responding to each of your points:

1. Yep. You are more likely to get the call if the catcher makes it look like a strike. Set up inside, and lunge for one on the outside corner, you're not getting that one from me.

2. Good point.

3. Pulling a pitch back in (I don't consider that framing) tells the world the catcher thought it was a ball, so why wouldn't you expect the umpire to agree? I have many times seen strikes turned into balls by the catcher doing this. Pitch on the outside black, and catch pulls it in over the plate - ball. Leave it out there and I'm all too happy to ring it up.

Side note: I like this very much. I like to develop a rapport with every catcher, and I have no problem telling him where a pitch missed as long as the conversation remains between us chickens. IMO, the ump who got upset at your signs is a reda$$. Someone disagreed with a call? Big deal. Get over it. The bottom line is, THEY ARE TRYING TO NOT SHOW UP THE UMPIRE!

Keep up the good work crudy. I wish they all were like you.

crudy,
Good comments about why to teach a catcher to sway.

As far as the strike or not communication; we did something similar but had the catcher always say "out". If he actually thought it was a strike he just said "out"... but if he felt it was a ball, he would also motion with the throwing hand "outside". Kept the crowd out of the equation ( to a degree) by always verbally agreeing with the ump was our goal.

If a strikezone disagreement persisted, the catcher would say to the ump (NEVER TURN AROUND) that some of these pitches sure look good to him and what was the catcher doing wrong (NEVER BLAME THE UMP)with his glovework,positioning,etc. Most umps would at least say something in return about what he would like to see...if the ump was any good. If the ump wasn't smart enough to appreciate how the catcher didn't show him up and gave the catcher a hard time for asking the ump anything....the catcher would ask the ump to sweep the plate or sweep it himself and then we knew in the dugout that the ump had an attitude. Yes, we knew when the catcher was talking to the ump about the strikezone through another sign.

At this point, we assistant coaches flipped a coin in the dugout to see who was gonna play "bad cop". If the strikezone situation kept going, Bad cop would call timeout sometime later and go up to the catcher and raise the roof about his catching ability (catcher knew what was going on because we would not use his correct first name)and how he couldn't expect an ump at this level to maintain the strikezone without a catcher's help, and leaving the outcome of a game in an ump's hands was a mistake at any level. So on and so forth. Never would we let an ump interrrupt us during the tirade; never would we stand there afterwards...straight back to the dugout we went. If blue wanted a fight, he had to come to us and start it. ****Takes a catcher that can keep a straight face or the coach and catcher are totally screwed.

Yes, one of the bad guy coaches did get tossed once but he (trial lawyer by profession)gave the ump pure h**l about not being smart enough to know the catcher was trying to work with him and not show him up. Basically told the ump that the game had gotten too fast for him at this level (Travel 14U) and that he should be embarassed to wear the uniform if this was the best he could do. The least he could do would be to apologize to the catcher for not being as good an ump as the catcher was a catcher. Also to flip the plate over and read the directions in Braille and while he was at it, shoot the dog because the dog was blind too.

It was classic ( even the other umps hated working with this home plate ump). Both sides in the crowd stood and applauded the coach; field ump had to turn away ( SS said he was smiling). The Head Coach (never does he play the bad guy) stepped in and ushered Bad Guy away to the parking lot. After another questionable call later in the game, the opposing dugout broke out in the Mickey Mouse Club song...and they did it perfectly ( I swear they had to have practiced). At this point, the game was out of control and we all knew it. Fortunately, both teams knew each other extremely well (all the kids were schoolmates)so there were no problems in the crowd.

Did we do this often? 3 times in 3 season was it; one ejection. Bad example for the kids? Yes, probably was but we never had a player ejected or warned for arguing with an ump which was the important thing to us. The kids knew that it there was ever a problem with an ump, the coaches would handle it (not always well, but we handled it); the players job was to stay in the game at all costs.

Ohh, the ump apologized to the catcher after the game about getting him into trouble with his coach. Our catcher just about wet himself laughing in the dugout.

My Mickey Mouse and Goofy speech I gave to a pitcher one game was a similar situation. I was trying to get tossed and couldn't; instead the opposing coach got tossed for laughing at what I said. After the game the opposing coaches and TEAM apologized for the quality of the umpires at their field. Their catcher had got tossed earlier for "deliberately letting a pitch hit" the HPU. We had heard about problems from other teams, but knew this game was gonna be strange when their catcher got tossed in the 2nd inning.

I'm making this sound like there are alot of bad umps out there and that is far from the truth. The vast majority are good and try hard to do a good job, usually succeeding pretty well. The guys that post in this forum bear that out. The small minority that thinks they are above the game and the game is their stage...well, you probably can guess my opinion.

Now those are some of the experiences that these kids will never forget. That is some funny stuff there coach.


If I get to the point of needing to talk with an umpire, I'll generally ask him in between innings if our catcher is setting up off the plate or any other info that he (the umpire) may see that we can correct. All the while I know my catcher is doing everything I want of him. I will also tell my catcher to let me know if the umpire says anything to him after that and that if the strike zone doesn't improve let me know. Generally the umpires begin taking a look at where my kid is setting up and we start getting the corner. The whole attitude I have when talking with an umpire is NOT challenging him but still getting him to take a closer look at the strike zone.

To S. Abrams:

Disgraceful. I'd pull my kid off your team.

As a coach you would be better served as well as your players by forgetting the "bad cop" bit and teach your catchers and pitchers how to adjust to the strike zone the ump is calling. If you are not getting a call, you think showing your rear will change anything?

quote:

Originally posted by 55Dad:
As a coach you would be better served as well as your players by forgetting the "bad cop" bit and teach your catchers and pitchers how to adjust to the strike zone the ump is calling. If you are not getting a call, you think showing your rear will change anything?

Bingo, 55Dad. The best pitchers I have seen spend the first inning finding where the zone is (wherever that may be), and the rest of the game living on the edges. Location is everything, changing speeds is next, gas is a distant 3rd. More than a few professional umpires have said that the hardest throwers are in AA. They can let it go at 95+, but they have no idea where it's going. Only when they learn to spot the ball do they move up to the big time.

dash/55dad,

I appreciate where you're coming from.

3 ejections in 3 seasons...all from the same guy that also ejected more coaches during that time period than all the other umps in the association. Ages 13-15u.

He was given the boot by the association this year.

Our catcher made every attempt to talk to this "ump" respectfully to no avail after the strikezone changed after we went ahead in these games. The game was about "the ump" is what every coach in the association felt this guy believed and demonstrated on the field consistently.

Did we ever have any issues with other umps? Only about rule interpretations which were usually easy to handle.

Like I said, we handled problems with the umpires..just not always very well.

If you have a real problem with an umpire, you'll never win the debate on the field. Every association I've worked with as well as booking agents ultimately want the best officials on the field. Use the strength of the coaches as a whole to address specific issues you have with an umpire with your athletic association. Often times a quiet visit by an association official during a game to see what's going on is all it takes to get the ball rolling, so to speak, to initiate a change.

55dad,

That is exactly what we did. Started the process about 1 year before he got booted. It was a political battle as this guy had a brother involved within our association's board. At times it became debatable if it was worth the war within the association.

As I said, the vast majority of umpires are good or at least making a honest effort to get things right which is all most coaches ask for. Never in all my years around this game did I run across an umpire that I felt made a travesty of the game until this guy.

We actually got him booted not for the ejections but rather not knowing the rules and the differences between OBR and FED. Took alot of effort and documentation from several coaches but it worked. You're right about the debate on the field...we never knew which set of rules we were playing under. The umpire association required all issues to be rule related...nothing involving a judgment call would be reviewed or considered (made perfect sense to me). Two of our ejections (of the 3)came during rules discussions...one of the coaches pulled a rulebook both times (I'd told him to never pull a rulebook in front of an ump in the middle of a game) so I knew how that discussion was going to end (right or wrong no longer was part of the equation; our coach was showing up the ump on the field). The coach was right but in a very wrong way.

During the ongoing removal process, I personally saw this ump toss a coach before a game. The crime...the coach asked what set of rules were we using today. Yeah, I can see where that is probably pushing the envelope but I admit I had to laugh when the coach told me why he got ejected. He said he didn't mean to say it that way but just blurted it out. Wrong question to ask with even worse timing. Given the overall situation, I may not have tossed him but the coach would have been on a very,very short leash.


The real dilemma...this ump is back on the field with another association's rec department. There is such a shortage of umpires that sometimes associations turn a blind eye instead of limiting teams,etc. Last I heard he was primarily doing 8-10 yr old games.

It's a shame because this ump away from the field is a nice and normal as the next guy. More than one friendship was damaged over this affair; the association recovered fine but is was very touchy for awhile.