catcher's throw sails

Chairman,

We have seen many catchers who don’t get a good 4-seam throw and the ball will run on them or even sink.

You mention the ball sailing high which IMO is not really possible. Rather the catcher is throwing high which could be a release problem among other things.

When a pitcher is wild high you can’t always correct the problem by talking mechanics on the spot. My theory has always been to tell the pitcher who has thrown 6 straight pitches head high or higher to throw the next pitch in the dirt. This usually will straighten out the mechanical issue if it’s in fact a temporary problem.

My suggestion is to tell your catcher to throw one hoppers to 2B and if his problem is something simple, this approach might straighten him out. If not, there are other problems.

I know this sounds too simple but I’ve seen it work many times. When throws are consistently high tell the player to exaggerate the low throw.

I used to call that ball rising 'over-throw'.

I would be throwing a lil harder and what would happen was that I would add back spin to the ball in the throw causing the rise. The back spin was inadvertant but it was there.

I took a lil off the throw and found that I could get the ball there at about the same time and on target.

For the science minded amongst us, think Bernouli's Principle.

quote:

For the science minded amongst us, think Bernouli's Principle.

Uhh, well, actually...

Bernoulli did research concerning the flow of fluids through pipes. The Bernoulli Principle deals with how the localized pressure inside a pipe varies with the diameter of the pipe. This phenomenom is commonly used to measure the flow of fluids.

Bernoulli is often mis-applied for everything from how airplane wings create lift (in reality it's a combination of the Coanda Effect and Newton's laws of motion) to how a baseball's spin affects it's path (Magnus Effect).

Sorry, couldn't help myself. As a chemical engineering student I had to study Bernoulli many years ago. As a part time flight instructor I get to talk to some exceedingly knowledgable aerodymacists from time to time, and last year I just had to get them to explain the baseball thing to me.

StylesMismatch,

In your scientific opinion do you believe the catcher in question is throwing high because the ball started straight to the target and then started to rise high? Or do you think the ball was just thrown high to begin with because of improper mechanics or release, resulting in the wrong trajectory? Furthermore, isn’t backspin (12-6) exactly the perfect rotation for a catchers throw?

I know we’ve had discussions about whether or not a fastball can rise being released at approximately 55 feet. The catchers throw to 2B of over 120 feet would have to carry too far to rise (IMO) unless you’re throwing a whiffle ball.

The key words are carry and distance… The 12-6 rotation provides maximum carry for all throwers from every position. The farther the ball travels the more it loses velocity and spin. Visually this can originally appear like the ball rises. However, if setting at a height directly across the line of a throw you can see the ball does not rise. You can also see that some throws have much more carry and velocity as it reaches the target!

Has it been absolutely proven that a baseball thrown overhand can not rise? And if it is possible what combination of velocity and spin would it take for a baseball thrown overhand to rise? Thanks!

When my son's throws to second are too high, the cause is usually that he has let his throwing elbow drop too low and is "pushing" the ball, instead of getting "on top" of it -- which, I assume would fall in the category of what PGStaff refers to as a "release problem." If this is what's going on with the catcher in question, PGStaff's suggestion would seem like a potentially good fix. Pretty hard to "push" one-hoppers to second.

just tell him to "spit in the wind"
it usually helps with the "mindthing" and who knows maybe it will change his luck.

The ball might be sailing high because he is standing up too quickly in the effort to throw. My son is taught to stay low, use footwork and legs to drive momentum directly toward second.

I've seen many catchers stand straight up and throw, which not only devours more time and removes momentum, but can cause a high throw.

Dropping the elbow or not getting the elbow up high enough will cause the throws to be high. Sometimes in the effort to get rid of the ball too quickly the catcher will not get the elbow up before he makes the throw. Have him just stand at the dish and make throws to second base. Tell him to take his time and not rush his throws. See where his elbow is and then see where it is when you tell him to make a pop throw under time. My bet is you will see the elbow lower on the timed throws and this will cause the ball to be high and sail usually to the right. PG makes a good point too , tell him to throw down hill the ball should be at its highest point on release and never get any higher during the travel to second base. Good Luck

thanks for the feedback & suggestions,
a low elbow was high on the checklist as that can also cause r-cuff problems .. I'll try to get some video to affirm any difference in elbow position on hurried throws too

short hops makes sense so he'll try it & I'll let you know how it works ..
I told him to alert his pitchers

also learned he's been doing a labrum physical therapy rehab program since last fall ..
he had no injury, but hoped to avoid injury thru the extra conditioning, so maybe the brain now needs adjustment & re-sighted

Chairman,

Please don't tell him to stay with those short hops.

Especially if being timed. Balls on one hop take more time than throws above the head when doing pop times.

I think it will help him fix what's wrong maybe! As we all know, the perfect throw is on the 1B side of the bag!

According to Bernoulli's Principle, the pressure is lower on the side where the velocity is greater, and consequently there is an unbalanced force at right angles to the wind. This is the magnus force.

Plainly speaking, the ball will move in the direction of the laces moving to the rear.

Laces moving forward will cause the turbulence or high pressure.

BOBO

Do we all have to go back to school now!!!!

Turbulence ?????--Is the game getting this scientific?

I like the PG approach-- simple and easy and in words a kid can understand

In this case the young man may simply be releasing the ball before he has fully come out of the crouch which will tend to make the ball "sail"

Ha, looks like we got an argument on our hands. I'll be attending a forum put on by a couple of the worlds top aerodymacists in a couple of months, I'll see if I can drag one of them into this. In the meantime, here is an excerpt I found from a NASA educational website. Basically the spinning ball has more DRAG on one side than on the other (lift has nothing to do with it). As far as a baseball actually rising, I don't think it's possible (it just falls more slowly). I've seen well hit golf balls rise (not mine though, mine just hook or slice - key phrase is well hit), but a golf ball weighs a lot less than a baseball. It's an interesting question (which of course has little bearing on the original post in this thread).

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Specifically, the Magnus force pushes the ball at right angles to the direction of flight and to the axis of spin. The Magnus force is responsible for the curve of the curve ball and the "hop" of the fast ball. This force is a result of an in-flight drag reduction on one side of the ball. When a pitcher throws the ball with spin (on the order of 1600 revolutions per minute), the wake of the ball on the side that spins with the flow is largely eliminated. The lower effective flow velocity on that side mimics low-speed, attached flow and results in a large drop in the "form drag" on one side of the ball (See the October '98 quiz question on the aerodynamics of golf balls for an explanation of drag on bluff bodies.). For you non-believers (and there were many back in the 1800s who claimed baseballs could not curve), breaking ball hurler Freddy Goldsmith threw a ball between three aligned vertical poles in New Haven in 1870. Also, it is actually Lord Rayleigh who is credited with the first description of the effect. Henrick Magnus reported it in his 1852 paper "On the Derivation of Projectiles; and on a Remarkable Phenomenon of Rotating Bodies." (G. Magnus, Memoirs of the Royal Academy, Berlin.)

Nope, just agreeing with Style.

I took it out of the high pressure, low pressure and simplified it.

Sailing is a bit different as you stated.

Works similarly on throws from the outfield.

I just had a Joe Bachagaloop moment.

"You throw like this, it goes like that. You throw like that, it goes like this."

I have been having trouble with throwdowns, not getting enough power, but I know I have it, I can throw from Left Center to the foul line, quite easily with a small crow hop, definitley farther than home to 2, but not by a ton. The weird thing is, my ball breaks to the right quite hard, so when I throw good and hard and level on long toss, I have to aim to the left, so it will end up at the person. I will usually move about 3 feet from where I aim it. I throw with a 4 seam grip, and get straight over the top, but it still happens. I also happens on my throwdowns. How can this be corrected?

just for clarification, I am a righty, and it breaks from left to right. Also, what pitch has that kind of movement, a horizontal left to right break?

Adam, for a ball to tail off like that it's gotta have some side-spin. There are several things you could be doing to create that side-spin - it could be in your grip, wrist action, arm action, arm slot, and probably other things someone else will mention. If possible I'd suggest making a slow motion video of your throw from the front and side, might see something with that.

I throw about 3/4, so that could be it. Could someone tell me what a running throw is?

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Carlton:
I will usually move about 3 feet from where I aim it. I throw with a 4 seam grip, and get straight over the top, but it still happens. I also happens on my throwdowns. How can this be corrected?

just for clarification, I am a righty, and it breaks from left to right. Also, what pitch has that kind of movement, a horizontal left to right break?

This sounds like a cut fastball.

You are probably gripping the ball slightly off-center. Try making sure that your middle finger is center on the ball since it is the longest finger and the last one to contact the ball.