Virginia Preps' coaches' poll stacks up only a tad differently:
1. James River (11-9)
2. Cosby (20-7)
3. Hanover (17-5)
4. Mills Godwin (19-4)
5. Deep Run (13-9)
6. Dinwiddie (16-5)
7. Atlee (11-9)
8. Matoaca (16-6)
9. Lee-Davis (16-5)
10. Manchester (19-3)
VP's Tom Garrett's personal opinion tweaks things yet again:
1. James River
2. Cosby
3. Mills Godwin
4. Deep Run
5. Atlee
6. Hanover
7. Dinwiddie
8. Manchester
9. Matoaca
10. Lee-Davis
Saw the Cosby-Midlo game last night, almost a huge upset..just couldn't hang on. The only sad commentary on the game was the home scorekeeper in the last inning. Luke Lowrey hit a slow roller to 2nd, the throw was in the dirt to 1b and wasn't snagged and it rolled to the fence. Lowrey got credit for a single with 2 rbis. At best looked like it would be a FC with 1 rbi, but it was definitely an error, and no way the runner from 2nd should have scored. Anyone ever see someone get 2 RBIs on a grounder to 2nd base ? I guess that was home field advantage. Makes me question stats I see now. A player with the ability and stature of Lowry does not need help from the scorekeeper, he's good enough to do it on his own...even stars have days they don't get hits. JMO
jvhsdad - I could not agree more. Not on this specific situation as I was not at the game - but in the scorekeeping and stat production in general. I wish there was an offical scorekeeper that was NOT associated with either team. The players are not being "helped" by inflating stats. It sets unrealistic excpectations on many fronts. It's easy to be a super star when Mom or Dad is keeping the book. I am not implying this is the case for the COSBY kid - JMO
quote:Originally posted by 4pApA:
jvhsdad - I could not agree more. Not on this specific situation as I was not at the game - but in the scorekeeping and stat production in general. I wish there was an offical scorekeeper that was NOT associated with either team. The players are not being "helped" by inflating stats. It sets unrealistic excpectations on many fronts. It's easy to be a super star when Mom or Dad is keeping the book. I am not implying this is the case for the COSBY kid - JMO
I was at the game also and it was definitely an error in my opinion, not even close. Lowry is a star in his own right with obviously great prospects for the future. My thought is that this type of bookkeeping hurts him as it may make people question his stats, when 99.9% of the stuff he does is legit and he deserves all the honors he gets. And one scoring blunder doesn't sound like a lot, but in MLB what's the pay scale difference for someone who averages 1 for 3 vs 1 for 4 ?
I wasnt at the game and didnt see this particular play but here are som comments...
major league pay scale for players?
I dont know what that is but I know what it is for major league scorekeepers vs. volunteer scoekeepers sitting in the cold on a tuesday afternoon keeping score!!
I do think when you score a high scool game vs. a major league or college game the standard is different- the basis for the decision is what is a routine play for a HS plyer vs. a MLB player?
On the play you described maybe Pedroia makes it look easy on TV?
The other side of the coin is maybe care should be taken before charging a high school kid with an error that cost his team a ball game?
Alot more goes ino this discusion other than whether someone is "padding stats" - I personally doubt they are.
major league pay scale for players?
I dont know what that is but I know what it is for major league scorekeepers vs. volunteer scoekeepers sitting in the cold on a tuesday afternoon keeping score!!
I do think when you score a high scool game vs. a major league or college game the standard is different- the basis for the decision is what is a routine play for a HS plyer vs. a MLB player?
On the play you described maybe Pedroia makes it look easy on TV?
The other side of the coin is maybe care should be taken before charging a high school kid with an error that cost his team a ball game?
Alot more goes ino this discusion other than whether someone is "padding stats" - I personally doubt they are.
quote:Originally posted by hsbasballfan:
I wasnt at the game and didnt see this particular play but here are som comments...
major league pay scale for players?
I dont know what that is but I know what it is for major league scorekeepers vs. volunteer scoekeepers sitting in the cold on a tuesday afternoon keeping score!!
I do think when you score a high scool game vs. a major league or college game the standard is different- the basis for the decision is what is a routine play for a HS plyer vs. a MLB player?
On the play you described maybe Pedroia makes it look easy on TV?
The other side of the coin is maybe care should be taken before charging a high school kid with an error that cost his team a ball game?
Alot more goes ino this discusion other than whether someone is "padding stats" - I personally doubt they are.
Good point about what is a reasonable play for a HS kid vs. a "pro" but scorekeepers are scorekeepers anywhere-- and fair and impartial is their responsibility. If they can't do that (even if it's 40 degrees and raining) then let someone do it that is fair and impartial. Finally, your arguement of not charging an error to a HS kid if that error costs the team the game doesn't hold for me either. If a HS kid misses a free throw in a basketball game that would have won the game , are your proposing that we don't show it in the stats?
I was not at the game, but from what I've heard here-- maybe (MAYBE!) there was some room for decisioning by the scorekeeper as the "slow roller"-- hit or error. But if a player gets a second RBI on the play described, that is padding the stats and the coach has the resposibility to step in and amke the corrections.
I wouldn't spend a whole lot of time debating any high school stats or scorekeepers decisions. I can promise you that no scouts or college coaches care about the stats, so it's really only an issue for parents and fans.
Bottom line- whether that play is ruled a 2-run single or error, Lowery is still a stud.
Bottom line- whether that play is ruled a 2-run single or error, Lowery is still a stud.
quote:Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:
I wouldn't spend a whole lot of time debating any high school stats or scorekeepers decisions. I can promise you that no scouts or college coaches care about the stats, so it's really only an issue for parents and fans.
Bottom line- whether that play is ruled a 2-run single or error, Lowery is still a stud.
Agreed.
baseball errors and basketball free throws are apples and oranges... one involves a judgement call the other one doesnt.
I really think we have lost perspective.
These stats are not even that important to scouts and so on...nor is who won various honors. Scouts show up and evalute players based on many things.
Kids and Dads like to boast about them but bottom line is what difference does it really make?
Why assume somone is "padding stats" and has an agenda instead of trying to give highschool kids the benefit of the doubt? Why is the assumption someone is being "unfair"?
In this case the second RBI could also be a case were someone just did not know a procedure? Why is the assumption someone padded a stat?
Only reason I can think of tha would cause someone to post about a scoreing decision and accuse someone of bing unfair is they have an agenda or an axe to grind
The only stat in that game that realy matters is who had more runs when the game ended
I really think we have lost perspective.
These stats are not even that important to scouts and so on...nor is who won various honors. Scouts show up and evalute players based on many things.
Kids and Dads like to boast about them but bottom line is what difference does it really make?
Why assume somone is "padding stats" and has an agenda instead of trying to give highschool kids the benefit of the doubt? Why is the assumption someone is being "unfair"?
In this case the second RBI could also be a case were someone just did not know a procedure? Why is the assumption someone padded a stat?
Only reason I can think of tha would cause someone to post about a scoreing decision and accuse someone of bing unfair is they have an agenda or an axe to grind
The only stat in that game that realy matters is who had more runs when the game ended
Way out on a limb here, but stats matter in LIFE.
The salesman(player) that sells the most cars(highest BA) gets the better salary increase (college scholarship award).
We hope the stats are accurate and honestly generated on both fronts to support the rewards and if not, it will come back to harm the salesman (player).
I think caring about stats is a life lesson our children can learn to appreciate.
The salesman(player) that sells the most cars(highest BA) gets the better salary increase (college scholarship award).
We hope the stats are accurate and honestly generated on both fronts to support the rewards and if not, it will come back to harm the salesman (player).
I think caring about stats is a life lesson our children can learn to appreciate.
If this is your first experience with bad HS stats, be advised, it will not be your last!
First question: Would Lowery have beaten the throw had it been a good one? If yes, score a single with 1 RBI, 2nd run scores on the error (no RBI for that run). If no, score him having reached on the error, 1 RBI (assuming there were less than 2 outs), 2nd run scores due to the error.
Second question: Are you sure you got (a) the FINAL word (b) from the OFFICIAL scorekeeper?
Third question: Do you think Coach Lowery cares about individual stats? I would bet you, he would just as soon have no stats published at all. Many coaches believe it detracts from the emphasis on TEAM and while I don't presume to speak for him, my guess is Coach Lowery would be one who feels that way. I would bet you my mortgage that it never crosses his mind to correct the scorekeeper because he truly couldn't care less about the stats one way or the other.
Personally I like to see accurate stats kept, but if it happens it's just because one team has someone who knows the rules of scorekeeping and who keeps an honest book. To expect it across the board is silly. It's not like VHSL provides trained scorekeepers to the games. And I don't think the teams want to pay for them the way they do umpires.
There is no duty on the coach to correct the scorebook, by the way. Those guys have enough on their plates without having to worry about such things.
First question: Would Lowery have beaten the throw had it been a good one? If yes, score a single with 1 RBI, 2nd run scores on the error (no RBI for that run). If no, score him having reached on the error, 1 RBI (assuming there were less than 2 outs), 2nd run scores due to the error.
Second question: Are you sure you got (a) the FINAL word (b) from the OFFICIAL scorekeeper?
Third question: Do you think Coach Lowery cares about individual stats? I would bet you, he would just as soon have no stats published at all. Many coaches believe it detracts from the emphasis on TEAM and while I don't presume to speak for him, my guess is Coach Lowery would be one who feels that way. I would bet you my mortgage that it never crosses his mind to correct the scorekeeper because he truly couldn't care less about the stats one way or the other.
Personally I like to see accurate stats kept, but if it happens it's just because one team has someone who knows the rules of scorekeeping and who keeps an honest book. To expect it across the board is silly. It's not like VHSL provides trained scorekeepers to the games. And I don't think the teams want to pay for them the way they do umpires.
There is no duty on the coach to correct the scorebook, by the way. Those guys have enough on their plates without having to worry about such things.
Here's a true story about team stat keeping to give you an idea of how bad teams' "official" stats can be.
I used to keep my own book on all my son's team's games, and I used to post them to a team fan site. At one game, my son hit what would have been a routine bouncer, except it hit a rock or something and bounded high, glancing off the 3B's glove, allowing him to reach.
Not wanting the "daddy bias" to come into play, I asked the keeper of the team's book how she scored it. She was a 16-year-old team manager who, it seems, had never bothered to read the rule book at all. I asked, "Did you score that as a hit or an error?" She replied, "Yes." I repeated my question and she looked at me, puzzled. I then asked if I could just see her book. In it, she had marked down both a single and an E-5. I explained to her that, as my son had only reached first, it could be only one or the other but not both. This was news to her. I suggested that if she thought the play should have been made, then E-5 it was.
Bear in mind that there were many games already in the book and the stat sheets before that colloquy occurred. And I have no doubt that the discussion made no dent at all in the quality of future stat keeping, for that matter.
And that, my friends, is why college recruiters put so little faith in stats.
I used to keep my own book on all my son's team's games, and I used to post them to a team fan site. At one game, my son hit what would have been a routine bouncer, except it hit a rock or something and bounded high, glancing off the 3B's glove, allowing him to reach.
Not wanting the "daddy bias" to come into play, I asked the keeper of the team's book how she scored it. She was a 16-year-old team manager who, it seems, had never bothered to read the rule book at all. I asked, "Did you score that as a hit or an error?" She replied, "Yes." I repeated my question and she looked at me, puzzled. I then asked if I could just see her book. In it, she had marked down both a single and an E-5. I explained to her that, as my son had only reached first, it could be only one or the other but not both. This was news to her. I suggested that if she thought the play should have been made, then E-5 it was.
Bear in mind that there were many games already in the book and the stat sheets before that colloquy occurred. And I have no doubt that the discussion made no dent at all in the quality of future stat keeping, for that matter.
And that, my friends, is why college recruiters put so little faith in stats.
quote:Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
If this is your first experience with bad HS stats, be advised, it will not be your last!
First question: Would Lowery have beaten the throw had it been a good one? If yes, score a single with 1 RBI, 2nd run scores on the error (no RBI for that run). If no, score him having reached on the error, 1 RBI (assuming there were less than 2 outs), 2nd run scores due to the error.
Second question: Are you sure you got (a) the FINAL word (b) from the OFFICIAL scorekeeper?
Third question: Do you think Coach Lowery cares about individual stats? I would bet you, he would just as soon have no stats published at all. Many coaches believe it detracts from the emphasis on TEAM and while I don't presume to speak for him, my guess is Coach Lowery would be one who feels that way. I would bet you my mortgage that it never crosses his mind to correct the scorekeeper because he truly couldn't care less about the stats one way or the other.
Personally I like to see accurate stats kept, but if it happens it's just because one team has someone who knows the rules of scorekeeping and who keeps an honest book. To expect it across the board is silly. It's not like VHSL provides trained scorekeepers to the games. And I don't think the teams want to pay for them the way they do umpires.
There is no duty on the coach to correct the scorebook, by the way. Those guys have enough on their plates without having to worry about such things.
Final Word: Lowery credited in RTD this AM as 1-3, 2RBI. I guess that is where this might have started.
I state again, I was not there so will not opine as to whether it was a hit or error. Only joined this discussion from what went before. Agree, scorekeepers are not pros and all may not have full grasp of how to score certain situations, but scorekeepers I've seen sit in the dugout (or next to it) and give the book back to the coach after games (or put it with the team equipment).
I agree with M. Dad that Coach Lowery might be one of those who prefers that stats not be published, but, they are published and someone needs to make sure they are right (good points, 4pApA!)We know college coaches and pro scouts do not read press clippings, but at the end of the year when someone is chosen POY or makes All-League or All-Anything, the facts should be right (and Lowery will be POY this year or next with or without these RBI's).
Midlo,
Could be a combination of the saddest and funniest post I have read in a while. Thanks for sharing.
Could be a combination of the saddest and funniest post I have read in a while. Thanks for sharing.
quote:Originally posted by 4pApA:
The salesman(player) that sells the most cars(highest BA) gets the better salary increase (college scholarship award).
Wrong. High School statistics play no role whatsoever in a college or pro scouts opinion on a player. None. Colleges and pro scouts evaluate tools at the high school level and assume stats have zero credibility.
The list of reasons that stats in high school are worthless is endless. The abilities of the score keepers is just one reason. Also consider the fact that there are varied levels of competition between public and private and even further levels within those two classifications.
It's been said already but it's worth repeating: The only people who care a whit are parents and there's really nothing more pathetic than a dad who knows his kids batting average to the thousandth.
Real baseball people know real baseball players.
Wow, if we're not talking about the official scorekeeper, but rather the newspaper line score, that's even worse.
As an example, the Richmond Times-Dispatch had a reporter on site for Monday's James River-Godwin game. While the story was nice and the gist was correct, the story attributed a HR to the wrong player. And it reported a pitcher having 7 K's when I'm pretty sure he actually had 8.
When you get to line scores, all that happens is that someone phones in a report. Often the person doing the phoning is working from memory (not exactly error free) and may also be someone who doesn't understand the difference in how RBI are or are not credited. Add to that, the person receiving the call on the sports night desk is the low man on the news staff totem pole, possibly with no baseball knowledge whatsoever. In those linescores, you're lucky if the score is right. Most times, at least one name is misspelled.
That's the process. It is nothing to invest great hopes in.
As an example, the Richmond Times-Dispatch had a reporter on site for Monday's James River-Godwin game. While the story was nice and the gist was correct, the story attributed a HR to the wrong player. And it reported a pitcher having 7 K's when I'm pretty sure he actually had 8.
When you get to line scores, all that happens is that someone phones in a report. Often the person doing the phoning is working from memory (not exactly error free) and may also be someone who doesn't understand the difference in how RBI are or are not credited. Add to that, the person receiving the call on the sports night desk is the low man on the news staff totem pole, possibly with no baseball knowledge whatsoever. In those linescores, you're lucky if the score is right. Most times, at least one name is misspelled.
That's the process. It is nothing to invest great hopes in.
JMO - I am simply pointing out a LIFE lesson and not trying to convince anyone that HS stats should or should not matter to anyone for any reason.
The reality is as a EMPLOYEE we are evaluted by others based on our performance and measurements are a part of performance.
My experience shows that some kids today dont understand that and perhaps a baseball analogy might serve as a learning opporunity.
The reality is as a EMPLOYEE we are evaluted by others based on our performance and measurements are a part of performance.
My experience shows that some kids today dont understand that and perhaps a baseball analogy might serve as a learning opporunity.
That's more true for things like All District etc. honors than for recruiting.
Most recruiting is based on subjective evaluations of capabilities and potential. Coaches realize that a 20-game season is actually very short. A short slump can ruin your overall average, yet you may still be a hitter. One bad outing can blow up your ERA, but you may still be a decent pitcher, or perhaps a coach sees potential but you have lacked adequate instruction up to this point. Maybe you're struggling with a nagging injury that won't be a hindrance later.
When it comes time to hand out awards, things like that are not viewed as excuses, and those who put up the numbers do indeed take home the geld. And when they become employees in pro ball (and really in college as well), productivity will matter as well.
But don't confuse that with what goes on in recruiting, because it just ain't the same.
Most recruiting is based on subjective evaluations of capabilities and potential. Coaches realize that a 20-game season is actually very short. A short slump can ruin your overall average, yet you may still be a hitter. One bad outing can blow up your ERA, but you may still be a decent pitcher, or perhaps a coach sees potential but you have lacked adequate instruction up to this point. Maybe you're struggling with a nagging injury that won't be a hindrance later.
When it comes time to hand out awards, things like that are not viewed as excuses, and those who put up the numbers do indeed take home the geld. And when they become employees in pro ball (and really in college as well), productivity will matter as well.
But don't confuse that with what goes on in recruiting, because it just ain't the same.
quote:Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
Here's a true story about team stat keeping to give you an idea of how bad teams' "official" stats can be. . . .
And it is not just the 16-year old manager who might get the scoring wrong, particularly the non-subjective scoring. Was watching a game of two teams, neither of to which I had an affliation. Runner was at first. Batter hits a low pop-up / fly ball behind first base, about half way to right field. First base runner freezes at the bag. Ball drops in. First base runner is thrown out at second and batter reaches first safely. Scorekeeper asks the first base coach, a seasoned assistant high school coach, how to score the batter's at-bat. Response - a hit because the first base runner should not have frozen on the bag. I also have seen a coach credit a batter with a sac when the third-base runner should have tagged up but instead went down the line and then had to retreat to third without scoring. His theory was that it was not the batter's fault that the third-base runner had a mental lapse.
My 2 cents - 1) I think this portion of the post started with mis-directed anger or anxiety over Midlo losing. The play in question scored runs that neither tied, or won the game.
2) I don't think player names should be brought up in a public forum unless there is some kind of accolade or honor being duscussed. Otherwise you do that player harm and he had nothing to do with the scoring. Why not call out the other players with errors - because it has no bearing on your point.
3) I am the scorekeeper for Cosby. I am an adult and know the rules of baseball. I have been keeping a varsity book for 10 years. There is no question in my mind that the batter beat the throw by a step or step and a half. It was a slow roller to the second baseman and in high school baseball, if a runner beats the throw, I give them a hit. My vantage point is 20 feet from first base, so I had a good look.
As for should it be 1 or 2 RBI's in my opinion it was 2, runners no second and third, both running on contact with two outs - after the play at third, my head turned toward the plate and the runner on second had already past third by 30 feet or so, in my opinion they would have scored had a catch been made at first and relayed to the plate.
You don't have to agree, but now you know why it was scored that way.
Inning recap (BB, F8, BB HBP, BB (scores 1), FC runner out going to second (scores #2). Runners at the corners, an attempted pick off at third goes wide, (scores #3 - runner on 1st goes to 3rd on error), BB & SB, so runners are on 2nd and 3rd. Then the play in question.
2) I don't think player names should be brought up in a public forum unless there is some kind of accolade or honor being duscussed. Otherwise you do that player harm and he had nothing to do with the scoring. Why not call out the other players with errors - because it has no bearing on your point.
3) I am the scorekeeper for Cosby. I am an adult and know the rules of baseball. I have been keeping a varsity book for 10 years. There is no question in my mind that the batter beat the throw by a step or step and a half. It was a slow roller to the second baseman and in high school baseball, if a runner beats the throw, I give them a hit. My vantage point is 20 feet from first base, so I had a good look.
As for should it be 1 or 2 RBI's in my opinion it was 2, runners no second and third, both running on contact with two outs - after the play at third, my head turned toward the plate and the runner on second had already past third by 30 feet or so, in my opinion they would have scored had a catch been made at first and relayed to the plate.
You don't have to agree, but now you know why it was scored that way.
Inning recap (BB, F8, BB HBP, BB (scores 1), FC runner out going to second (scores #2). Runners at the corners, an attempted pick off at third goes wide, (scores #3 - runner on 1st goes to 3rd on error), BB & SB, so runners are on 2nd and 3rd. Then the play in question.
quote:Originally posted by TonyConig:
As for should it be 1 or 2 RBI's in my opinion it was 2, runners no second and third, both running on contact with two outs - after the play at third, my head turned toward the plate and the runner on second had already past third by 30 feet or so, in my opinion they would have scored had a catch been made at first and relayed to the plate.
You don't have to agree, but now you know why it was scored that way.
Wasn't at the game. Just have been reading the posts. What was the mentioned play at third? One poster said the ball got past the FIRST baseman and rolled to the fence. While I can accept a judgment call that the runner reached first for a hit on a slow roller to the second baseman, I just don't see a typical high school runner, even one on the move, making it from second to home if the ball had not gotten past the first baseman. You are saying that the first baseman, cleanly fielding the ball, can't throw the ball 90 feet quicker than the runner can run 60 feet? Presents an interesting mathematical problem. Let's assume that the first baseman can throw 80 mph which is 117 feet per second. To travel 90 feet (from first to home) would take .76923 seconds. So the runner has to cover 60 feet in .76923 seconds or less. Convert that to a 60 yard dash. (Yes, I do know that a runner running the 60-yard dash does not run the same speed uniformly and may run the first 60 feet faster but humor me.) The runner would have to have a 60-yard speed of 3 x .76923 seconds or 2.307 seconds. Pretty fast. (I thought that Mitchell Shifflett graduated from Cosby.) Or a 40-yard speed of 1.538. Assuming that the first baseman could only throw at 70 mph, that is 103 feet per second and the ball would reach home in .873786 seconds. The runner would only have to be running a 2.62 60-yard speed or a 1.74 40-yard speed. I realize that some instant of time has to be allotted to the catcher to catch the ball and make the tag but I still am not buying the second RBI under the facts described.
so....we hav on guy who said he was "2 feet from the play" and anothr guy who starts his mathmatical argument with "I wasnt at the game" but I am going to tell you what I think?
The argument presented makes no consiration for the weather conditions (wind/temp./humidity) or the weigh of the ball which is changed by the weather.
was the first baseman right handed or left handed?
I think WB has been watching too many "Myth Busters" episodes.
I also think this discussion is why most adults who volunteer to keep score turn the book over to teenage team managers after a few games.
The argument presented makes no consiration for the weather conditions (wind/temp./humidity) or the weigh of the ball which is changed by the weather.
was the first baseman right handed or left handed?
I think WB has been watching too many "Myth Busters" episodes.
I also think this discussion is why most adults who volunteer to keep score turn the book over to teenage team managers after a few games.
The only score that counts is what is recorded for the conference won or conference lost column, eveything else just doesn't matter.
I've seen way too many baseball games in my life to really care one way or another how something is scored by an experienced of inexperienced scorekeeper. These are volunteers, who are doing the best they can do given the circumstances. Please cut them some slack, and get some perspective with this....it was the first conference game of many to come.
I've seen way too many baseball games in my life to really care one way or another how something is scored by an experienced of inexperienced scorekeeper. These are volunteers, who are doing the best they can do given the circumstances. Please cut them some slack, and get some perspective with this....it was the first conference game of many to come.
Midlo Dad, loved your yarn, especially your concluding remark that your discussion with the scorekeeper made no impact on the quality of future scorekeeping. Sounds like your sixteen year old is still keeping score at many baseball games.
WB, you should never inject facts into a baseball discussion. Baseball discussions are opinion driven, not fact driven. For example, I do not want hear that Ted Williams was the greatest hitter. We all know that (fill in your favorite player) was the greaster hitter, not Ted Williams.
Tong Conig, the trail runner needs to think about another sport, track. Am sure your track team could use another speedy runner for their 100 meter, 200 meter or 4x100 meter team.
WB, you should never inject facts into a baseball discussion. Baseball discussions are opinion driven, not fact driven. For example, I do not want hear that Ted Williams was the greatest hitter. We all know that (fill in your favorite player) was the greaster hitter, not Ted Williams.
Tong Conig, the trail runner needs to think about another sport, track. Am sure your track team could use another speedy runner for their 100 meter, 200 meter or 4x100 meter team.
quote:Originally posted by hsbasballfan:
so....we hav on guy who said he was "2 feet from the play" and anothr guy who starts his mathmatical argument with "I wasnt at the game" but I am going to tell you what I think?
I see how good your mathematics are. The posting said he was 20 feet from the play, not 2. Had checked the Richmond Times Dispatch to see if it was raining, as I knew that would impact. According to that newspaper, it was in the low 50's, upper 40's, not raining but overcast. Don't know what Myth Busters is. Just have watched thousands of baseball games. Just saying it is hard to believe the runner is that good.
It could happen. I just thought Mitchell Shifflett had moved on to UVA, but apparently they have another guy who's every bit as fast.
Joking aside, the scoring rationale given is correct assuming the play developed as related.
If the runner rounded third and never once broke stride, then he may well have been taking a silly risk. But the scoring rules do not permit you to presume that he would've been out on a relay throw, so if he was already in motion independent of the error, the scoring of the second RBI would be correct.
If the runner did actually break stride and only resumed heading home when he saw that the throw was off, then you would have to say he scored due to the error, no RBI.
It's an unusual play but it does happen on occasion. It's usually a case of an aggressive runner catching someone napping, or trying to. There's really no other way to attribute the run if he just keeps going and beats the throw, which is what you would use as your reconstruction without the error in trying to determine, e.g., earned vs. unearned run.
If the runner rounded third and never once broke stride, then he may well have been taking a silly risk. But the scoring rules do not permit you to presume that he would've been out on a relay throw, so if he was already in motion independent of the error, the scoring of the second RBI would be correct.
If the runner did actually break stride and only resumed heading home when he saw that the throw was off, then you would have to say he scored due to the error, no RBI.
It's an unusual play but it does happen on occasion. It's usually a case of an aggressive runner catching someone napping, or trying to. There's really no other way to attribute the run if he just keeps going and beats the throw, which is what you would use as your reconstruction without the error in trying to determine, e.g., earned vs. unearned run.
quote:As for should it be 1 or 2 RBI's in my opinion it was 2, runners no second and third, both running on contact with two outs - after the play at third, my head turned toward the plate and the runner on second had already past third by 30 feet or so, in my opinion they would have scored had a catch been made at first and relayed to the plate.
As was my original post... I apologgize for relying on spell check too much.
....after the play at FIRST, my head turned toward the plate......
And as mentioned, it was my opinion that the runner at second would have scored ... so I marked it as such.
Fast vs REALLY fast.... if the runner is properly coached, takes a good secondary lead and breaks on the crack of the bat, I can see them easily passing 3rd by the time a slow roller reaches 2nd.
The bottom line for this post - we can argue over levels of play, players abilities, the rules and so forth... nothing will change the way that play was scored. The most unfortunate part of this thread was the posting or calling out the batters name. He doesn't deserve being singled out on something he had nothing to do with - the scoring of the play.
quote:Originally posted by TonyConig:quote:As for should it be 1 or 2 RBI's in my opinion it was 2, runners no second and third, both running on contact with two outs - after the play at third, my head turned toward the plate and the runner on second had already past third by 30 feet or so, in my opinion they would have scored had a catch been made at first and relayed to the plate.
As was my original post... I apologgize for relying on spell check too much.
....after the play at FIRST, my head turned toward the plate......
And as mentioned, it was my opinion that the runner at second would have scored ... so I marked it as such.
Fast vs REALLY fast.... if the runner is properly coached, takes a good secondary lead and breaks on the crack of the bat, I can see them easily passing 3rd by the time a slow roller reaches 2nd.
The bottom line for this post - we can argue over levels of play, players abilities, the rules and so forth... nothing will change the way that play was scored. The most unfortunate part of this thread was the posting or calling out the batters name. He doesn't deserve being singled out on something he had nothing to do with - the scoring of the play.
I don't know what was so bad about calling out the name. I went back and looked at my post and I had nothing but positive things to say about the player 'Lowry is a star in his own right with obviously great prospects for the future. My thought is that this type of bookkeeping hurts him as it may make people question his stats, when 99.9% of the stuff he does is legit and he deserves all the honors he gets'. I see nothing that is negative about the comments on him personally, he just happened to be the player on the play in question. That being said, we'll have to just disagree on your assessment of the play, if the throw is caught at first, the runner is out, and the runner on third had no designs on home until the ball bounded past the 1st baseman and went to the wall, in my opinion...and everyone who said this shouldn't matter is correct, it's a small nothing in the long run. just something that kind of jumped out at some of us i guess.
Worst part of this discussion was how people made accusations that someone inmtenmtionally padded stats.
That is disrespectful to assume someone has a hidden agenda
I think it has been very gracious of the scorekeeper to share his thinking in such an open way.
Sounds like the scoring of the play was a judgement call to me and the scorer took great care to get it right.
Most high school dug outs include a student manager with a scorebook..usually a female who several times a game surveys they players on the bench.."Was that a hit" - a quick vote is taken among the players nearby and it gets recorded.
I have met this particilar scprekeeper before and can tell you he is all about the kids...not just on the team he scores for but all of them. Cosby is very fortunate to have him...I wish there were more around the area.
I had a guy one time whose son played at cosby say he recorded his son's stats over two seasons..probably 200 ABs and his numbers were within .001 of the official book kept by the same guy.
Go read his summary of the game and you will find him taking great care to imclude/credit kids on the other team for their roles in the game...the man is an asset to and advocate for any kid that plays ball in our area
That is disrespectful to assume someone has a hidden agenda
I think it has been very gracious of the scorekeeper to share his thinking in such an open way.
Sounds like the scoring of the play was a judgement call to me and the scorer took great care to get it right.
Most high school dug outs include a student manager with a scorebook..usually a female who several times a game surveys they players on the bench.."Was that a hit" - a quick vote is taken among the players nearby and it gets recorded.
I have met this particilar scprekeeper before and can tell you he is all about the kids...not just on the team he scores for but all of them. Cosby is very fortunate to have him...I wish there were more around the area.
I had a guy one time whose son played at cosby say he recorded his son's stats over two seasons..probably 200 ABs and his numbers were within .001 of the official book kept by the same guy.
Go read his summary of the game and you will find him taking great care to imclude/credit kids on the other team for their roles in the game...the man is an asset to and advocate for any kid that plays ball in our area
quote:Originally posted by hsbasballfan:
I had a guy one time whose son played at cosby say he recorded his son's stats over two seasons..probably 200 ABs and his numbers were within .001 of the official book kept by the same guy.
Love the math. How can there be a difference of only .001 with 200 ABs? Each AB would be worth .005. I think to have a difference of only .001, there would have to have been 1000 ABs.
Wow, this is out of this world to hear what I have to say. Been away from this forum stuff for awhile and have seen this Spring, the most talent we will ever imagine. Some of our guys back here in Richmond are good and I will ever support them, but the reality is, they should totally focus on their academics. Playing college ball is a great goal, don't get me wrong, and a few will be able to make it, sure, but playing pro ball in the next 5 years or so, for a living, well, we need to re-establish goals guys. Never say never, but,
Gents,
I was at the game and the correct scoring on the play was: E4 0 H 2 Unearned runs
The 2nd Baseman sat back on the slow grounder which was hit almost directly at him. He did not cleanly scoop the ball, but did recover and fired the ball from his heels and into the dirt in front of 1st Base. The ball skided past 1st Base. There were two outs at the time and because the force was not made at 1st Base, two runs were allowed to score.
From a Midlo perspective, I don't know which is worse to see in the paper: an incorrect hit scored or a 5 run Cosby scoring drive that was accomplished on no hits.
I have had issue with Cosby scoring in the past with Errors being assigned our players while Cosby stars were not charged with theirs. The 10 year scorekeeper may just be too close for objectivity.
Best line in this string was how Coach Lowery doesn't have time to worry about stats. I agree. After Tuesday's game with Midlo, he was probably trying to figure out how the No. 2 team in the region (by one poll) was unable to score any runs until the sixth inning and was almost beat by a Midlo team that is coming off a winless season and is dominated by Sophomores and Freshmen.
Of course, as we all know, Cosby will be there in the end.
I was at the game and the correct scoring on the play was: E4 0 H 2 Unearned runs
The 2nd Baseman sat back on the slow grounder which was hit almost directly at him. He did not cleanly scoop the ball, but did recover and fired the ball from his heels and into the dirt in front of 1st Base. The ball skided past 1st Base. There were two outs at the time and because the force was not made at 1st Base, two runs were allowed to score.
From a Midlo perspective, I don't know which is worse to see in the paper: an incorrect hit scored or a 5 run Cosby scoring drive that was accomplished on no hits.
I have had issue with Cosby scoring in the past with Errors being assigned our players while Cosby stars were not charged with theirs. The 10 year scorekeeper may just be too close for objectivity.
Best line in this string was how Coach Lowery doesn't have time to worry about stats. I agree. After Tuesday's game with Midlo, he was probably trying to figure out how the No. 2 team in the region (by one poll) was unable to score any runs until the sixth inning and was almost beat by a Midlo team that is coming off a winless season and is dominated by Sophomores and Freshmen.
Of course, as we all know, Cosby will be there in the end.
I was also at the game on Tuesday.When I envision a slow roller I picture a ball slowly rolling on the ground. The ball was not hard hit, but hardly a slow roller. I agree with the runner being a step to step and half from the 1st base bag when the ball got there, but on the other side of the base with the runner being out if the ball had been caught. After the game I spoke to 3 of the Midlo infielders and they all felt if the ball had been caught the batter would have been out.
As for the runner that was on second I also quickly looked to 3rd when the ball got by the 1st baseman. What I saw was the 3rd base coach holding the runner and then sending him when the ball got by the 1st baseman. If the runner on second was 30 ft past 3rd base when the ball got past the first baseman he would have had to been running at full speed without hesitation rounding third and the fastest human being on the face of the earth.
As far as any mis-directed anger or anxiety over Midlo losing, I have none. I left the game feeling good that the team picked by almost everyone to finish last in the district outplayed a team ranked anywhere from 2nd to 6th in the Richmond area for 5 innings with one senior starter. It was a step in the right direction.
On a lighter note, the day after a tough loss, I got to share a chuckle with my teenage son when we looked at the box score in the paper.
As for the runner that was on second I also quickly looked to 3rd when the ball got by the 1st baseman. What I saw was the 3rd base coach holding the runner and then sending him when the ball got by the 1st baseman. If the runner on second was 30 ft past 3rd base when the ball got past the first baseman he would have had to been running at full speed without hesitation rounding third and the fastest human being on the face of the earth.
As far as any mis-directed anger or anxiety over Midlo losing, I have none. I left the game feeling good that the team picked by almost everyone to finish last in the district outplayed a team ranked anywhere from 2nd to 6th in the Richmond area for 5 innings with one senior starter. It was a step in the right direction.
On a lighter note, the day after a tough loss, I got to share a chuckle with my teenage son when we looked at the box score in the paper.
On a lighter note, I couldn't have been the only one to get a chuckle out of TCWPreps "top ten State Stats leaders" post could I?
Not that it was funny, just the timing of it...
BTW TCWpreps, I hope the site takes off. Looks like you put a lot of work into it.
Not that it was funny, just the timing of it...
BTW TCWpreps, I hope the site takes off. Looks like you put a lot of work into it.
You guys are a trip. Most sucessful HS Baseball programs do not focus on individual stats...baseball is a team sport and the teams that win pay attention to W and L's - they also take every team seriously ad pay little attention to what their opponets did the year before.
Whether it was a 0-20 team or a 20-0 team. If you dont believe an 0-20 team CAN beat you will never believe you CAN beat a 20-0 team.
Whether it was a 0-20 team or a 20-0 team. If you dont believe an 0-20 team CAN beat you will never believe you CAN beat a 20-0 team.
quote:Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
Joking aside, the scoring rationale given is correct assuming the play developed as related.
If the runner rounded third and never once broke stride, then he may well have been taking a silly risk. But the scoring rules do not permit you to presume that he would've been out on a relay throw, so if he was already in motion independent of the error, the scoring of the second RBI would be correct.
If the runner did actually break stride and only resumed heading home when he saw that the throw was off, then you would have to say he scored due to the error, no RBI.
It's an unusual play but it does happen on occasion. It's usually a case of an aggressive runner catching someone napping, or trying to. There's really no other way to attribute the run if he just keeps going and beats the throw, which is what you would use as your reconstruction without the error in trying to determine, e.g., earned vs. unearned run.
Midlo, Sounds like you are charging the pitcher with an earned run for the trail runner. How do you reconcile that with the instruction that "whenever a fielding error occurs, the pitcher should be given the benefit of the doubt in determining to which bases any runners would have advanced had the fielding of the defensive team been errorless"?
That provision is intended for use when reconstructing an inning to determine earned vs. unearned runs over a sequence of plays. It is not intended for the situation of one, continuous play.
For the continuous play, you have to apply the rule that the out on a relay throw cannot be presumed. So again, the test is whether or not the runner broke stride when rounding third.
Look at it this way. I've seen the rare instance where a runner legitimately scores from 2nd on a ground out even when the ball never got loose. Maybe someone took a second to recognize that he was heading home, but the rule book explicitly states you cannot charge an error for simply reacting slowly. The question you have to ask yourself, as a scorekeeper, is would this have happened had the throw been fine, or would the runner have stopped at third if the ball had been thrown well and caught on the fly?
Incidentally, if the play did happen as AU Marine recalls it, you could actually score 2 errors. One for the bobble if that let the batter reach, a second one for the throw if that created an additional base advance for the runner who scored the second run. So, there's a wide spectrum of how you can score this, and without being there to see it, you can't begin to weigh in. Plus, as you can see, just as "beauty is in the eye of the beholder," the ultimate ruling is in the eye of the guy entrusted to keep the official book.
For the continuous play, you have to apply the rule that the out on a relay throw cannot be presumed. So again, the test is whether or not the runner broke stride when rounding third.
Look at it this way. I've seen the rare instance where a runner legitimately scores from 2nd on a ground out even when the ball never got loose. Maybe someone took a second to recognize that he was heading home, but the rule book explicitly states you cannot charge an error for simply reacting slowly. The question you have to ask yourself, as a scorekeeper, is would this have happened had the throw been fine, or would the runner have stopped at third if the ball had been thrown well and caught on the fly?
Incidentally, if the play did happen as AU Marine recalls it, you could actually score 2 errors. One for the bobble if that let the batter reach, a second one for the throw if that created an additional base advance for the runner who scored the second run. So, there's a wide spectrum of how you can score this, and without being there to see it, you can't begin to weigh in. Plus, as you can see, just as "beauty is in the eye of the beholder," the ultimate ruling is in the eye of the guy entrusted to keep the official book.
Hindsight is always 20/20.....Looking back at my Dominion District 2011 preseason prediction, I'm giving myself a C....i grade on a curve. Not nearly as good as my 2010 prediction where I got them all right. More research is needed next year, so I don't embarass myself. I knew it was a two horse race, but clearly had my money on the wrong horse (JR) for the regular season. Maybe JR got their experience in the reg season, and they are going to make a run in the playoffs....? Also, I totally missed the rise of Midlothian from winless last year to middle of the pack this year. I knew LC Bird and Manchester would be a **** shoot, and it was. Manchester lost to Midlothian (7-6) last week, while Bird beat Midlo twice....that was the difference. Bird had some ugly loses out of conference, but they are just that....out of confernce.
This years lesson is: Cosby's experience counts for more than James River's youthful exuberance. As I stated on page 1, it is an opportunity for a team's pitching staff to step up as last years' crop of aces are playing in college right now. Cosby's pitching staff did it, and James River's pitching staff did as well but I think Cosby had the defensive edge. I knew Cosby was going to be good, but I did not see them running the table. Good luck to everyone in the District tournament starting Monday.
Preseason:
1) James River
2) Cosby
3) Manchester
4) LC Bird
5) Clover Hill
6) Monacan
7) Midlothian
Reality
1) Cosby 12-0
2) James River 10-2
3) LC Bird 7-5
4) Manchester 6-6
5) Midlothian 5-7
6) Monacan 2-10
7) Clover Hill 0-12
Not nearly as good as my 2010 prediction where I got them all right. More research is needed next year, so I don't embarass myself. I knew it was a two horse race, but clearly had my money on the wrong horse (JR) for the regular season. Maybe JR got their experience in the reg season, and they are going to make a run in the playoffs....? Also, I totally missed the rise of Midlothian from winless last year to middle of the pack this year. I knew LC Bird and Manchester would be a **** shoot, and it was. Manchester lost to Midlothian (7-6) last week, while Bird beat Midlo twice....that was the difference. Bird had some ugly loses out of conference, but they are just that....out of confernce.This years lesson is: Cosby's experience counts for more than James River's youthful exuberance. As I stated on page 1, it is an opportunity for a team's pitching staff to step up as last years' crop of aces are playing in college right now. Cosby's pitching staff did it, and James River's pitching staff did as well but I think Cosby had the defensive edge. I knew Cosby was going to be good, but I did not see them running the table. Good luck to everyone in the District tournament starting Monday.
Preseason:
1) James River
2) Cosby
3) Manchester
4) LC Bird
5) Clover Hill
6) Monacan
7) Midlothian
Reality
1) Cosby 12-0
2) James River 10-2
3) LC Bird 7-5
4) Manchester 6-6
5) Midlothian 5-7
6) Monacan 2-10
7) Clover Hill 0-12
So that means the Dominion District playoffs would be:
Clover Hill not invited to the dance.
Midlothian at Manchester, winner gets Cosby; and
Monacan at L.C. Bird, winner gets James River; and
those winners for title.
Do I have that right?
Clover Hill not invited to the dance.
Midlothian at Manchester, winner gets Cosby; and
Monacan at L.C. Bird, winner gets James River; and
those winners for title.
Do I have that right?