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Cham -

Disclaimer -- if you'd rather answer this in a PM or email let me know and I'll resend it there. --

I'm fortunate that all three of my sons hit the ball really well at this point (ages 13, 11, 9) but I'd like to experiment with something the group here has been discussing, and that is bat tipping. I'd like to know how you would suggest that I try to work this into their swings.

It seems to me it's primarily a timing issue, but I would like to know how to teach it. For example, in what direction (for a RH batter) should the bat be pointed (i.e. toward the pitcher, toward the shortstop, toward the second baseman, etc.)?

Since I perceive this to be a timing issue (correct me if I'm wrong), is it something that can be started with some tee work? Or do you have to start with some soft toss and work up to full speed pitching?

How does the timing work...i.e. I need a cue to tell them where in the sequence to tip the bat, e.g. does it move in conjunction with other body movements like a knee movement for example (which it appears to in one of the Chipper Jones clips)?

Thanks for whatever suggestions you can provide.

Jon
------------------------------------------ I'm a schizophrenic...and so am I.
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Let's start with a better definition.

My hitting theory is that the hands and hips drive the swing.

I've developed what I call the "Second Engine"...or...the proper usage of the hands.

The Second Engine implies there is a first engine...the hips.

Using the hands and hips properly to create separation leads to "stretch and fire" mechanics...which is what I call "instantaneous launch".

When the time from the "go" decison to contact is intantaneous....you're on your way.

Timing becomes significantly easier the shorter your swing is. The more instantaneous your swing is, the easier it is to time pitches. You have to do less between deciding to swing and contact.

Any attempt to "swing from your center"....or "turn like heck" does just that. It turns your center.....or it turns the hips like heck.

What doesn't happen from that hitting theory is the barrel doesn't get the benefit at "go". It is delayed. We typically call this bat drag.

Any hitting theory that isn't centered on the hands torquing the barrel at "go" will suffer from bat drag.

Imagine the "pulling on the knob" type hitting instruction. Whether done with arm pull or with shoulder rotation. That is what "flying off the merry go round does". It pulls on the barrel until it arcs to contact. It is simply impossible for that technique to get the barrel to contact as quickly as a handle torque technique.

And it is absurd and intellectually dishonest to suggest it does.

It is absolutely absurd to believe that "just holding on to the **** bat" and "turning like heck" to get the barrel to "fly off the merry go round" is a workable hitting theory.

The time constraints are too small. There is little margin for error.

The barrel must receive energy, rotating it, from the hands torquing it immediately at "go".

No delay can be present. No arm pull first, then the barrels arcs as the hands change direction. No lead shoulder pull on the lead arm which pulls on the knob until it changes direction. These are slack filled and slop filled systems. They are too slow devleoping.

To suggest that "changing the direction of the knob" by the above technique to angularly displace the barrel is laughable. How long do you have? You simply can't wait to change the direction of the knob until the hands are "out front" and away from the armpit area. Simply not possible to have success with this technqiue.

So...IF you have handle torque turning the barrel rearward at "go"....the barrel receives the energy as quickly as possible. The very thing that delivers the energy to the barrel is holding the barrel....the hands. There can be no quicker delivery system. The hands are actually in contact with the handle which turns the barrel. They are as close to the object you need moved as any body part can be. They will automatically move the barrel sooner than any other part can. They win by default. Nothing else is capable of delivering as fast as the hands can deliver.

So....since the very thing that delivers the energy is holding onto the bat....you should be able to launch instantaneously.

An instantaneous launch permits a longer "read" time. A longer "read" time permits better decisions. Better decisions means better hitting.

BUT.....those pitchers are pretty **** good. They get real good the higher up the ladder you go. They are experts at upsetting timing.

So.....the delivery system being close to the barrel isn't enough. You also must use those hands properly....by turning the barrel rearward.

This creates a much larger "window" for decision making. Because, you can actually start the barrel without commiting to the pitch. This start creates early batspeed that is still adjustable and can be redirected without degradation of the swing.

I'm getting windy.

I haven't even gotten to the "tip n rip".

Because I believe there is an underlying foundation that must be understood.

The forearms, through supination and pronation, are what power the hands to turn the barrel rearward. They are assisted by the lateral tilt of the shoulders at "go"....a much more aggressive and powerful move and a much more "sudden" move than shoulder rotation. Shoulder rotation is very weak by comparison. Shoulder rotation is 'slop' filled.

So....if you understand how the forearms, hands and shoulders work to unload the barrel....now we can work on loading it

The tip n rip is one way to do that. I wouldn't say the tip is only for timing reasons. Although it can be a huge help for timing.

IMO, the tip loads the system by creating resistance from which the lower body opens against....creating separtion....that leads to the "stretch and fire" launch.....which obviously has timing advantages as well as power and speed and quickness advantages.

Today's Greats Demonstrating The Above
Last edited by Chameleon
Chameleon,

I've got to tell ya, that is the best description/definition of your 2nd engine hitting philosophy that I've see from you. I like this reasoned, intelligent approach much better from you. I actually took the time to read and think about what you were saying. Much better than the other approach I've seen that causes me to not take the time.

Good job! I see what you're saying...now let me think some more about this.
You've obviously given this a lot of thought. I'm mostly following your descriptions I think. I'm trying to figure out a starting point for trying some thing with my sons.

I was intending to work on the stretch/tipping with them since that seemed to me to be an obvious way for possible improvement. But now, I'm thinking I should really study my sons' swings in more detail first. Perhaps they're already using some of the things you're talking about. It's very hard for me to see some of that stuff at full speed. I'm thinking I should video them and study it at slow speed to see where their starting points are.

We obviously can't take hitting lessons over the internet. That was why I'm asking for a couple cues or drills to use to start moving in that direction. But with the video I'll at least have a way to assess what they're doing.

Thoughts?

Jon
Much of what I discussed above could be said in four words...

"Snap off the pole"



While these hitters have the barrel pointed toward the pitcher....somewhat tipped.....they are both swinging from a pretty much stationery hand/barrel set.

In other words....significantly less prelaunch barrel movement than these guys.



I would start with Ortiz's style to learn how the forearms unload the barrel.

Then, I'd experiment with the tip n rip.

More To Study
Last edited by Chameleon
Chamelon/Joe Bad/Teacherman/Info Pimp
Said:

No delay can be present. No arm pull first, then the barrels arcs as the hands change direction. No lead shoulder pull on the lead arm which pulls on the knob until it changes direction. These are slack filled and slop filled systems. They are too slow devleoping.

To suggest that "changing the direction of the knob" by the above technique to angularly displace the barrel is laughable. How long do you have? You simply can't wait to change the direction of the knob until the hands are "out front" and away from the armpit area. Simply not possible to have success with this technqiue.

___________________________________________________

If this is your understanding of what is being taught by Englishbey and/or *****, it is not a wonder that you and your kid could not get it done.
quote:
Originally posted by Incog Nito:


If this is your understanding of what is being taught by Englishbey and/or *****, it is not a wonder that you and your kid could not get it done.


Uh huh....

Hands along for the ride...
Just hand on to the d a m n bat...
Swing in the shoulder plane...
Lead elbow up in that plane...
Form the box
Maintain the box...
Tilt and turn...


All that equals s e t p r o and the other guy that I can't mention his name or be banned. Big Grin
Last edited by FlippJ

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