Here's a question for you guys (or gals)?
Do you have a rule of thumb for how much a changeup should vary from the fastball. ie if your FB is 80 and your change is 72 that's a 10% decrease. Any thoughts on this one?
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Don't worry about the rules...
It is more important that you try to throw just as hard as your fastball so it doesn't look like you are slowing down your arm..... thats when pitchers get crushed....!!! let the grip of the change up do its job and if that slows you down 10 mph ,thats perfect!!!
I have a pitching book from a college pitching coach at fresno who says your change up should be 12 mph slower than your fastball. But the actual speed difference is not as important as the surprise of a ball flying slower out of a quick moving arm/hand than expected.
It is more important that you try to throw just as hard as your fastball so it doesn't look like you are slowing down your arm..... thats when pitchers get crushed....!!! let the grip of the change up do its job and if that slows you down 10 mph ,thats perfect!!!
I have a pitching book from a college pitching coach at fresno who says your change up should be 12 mph slower than your fastball. But the actual speed difference is not as important as the surprise of a ball flying slower out of a quick moving arm/hand than expected.
Tough question. A circle change with a normal wrist through delivery is often 8 mph slower. A fork grip with a "pull the window shade" delivery is usually slower to 12 mph. It depends upon the grip, finish, and speed of the fastball.
I think that it also depends on the length of the ring and the middle finger. Some of your better changeup guys have smaller fingers. I like when the change is 12 or so off the Fastball, but as we know its all about the arm action. I just feel the hitter is geared for heat and when you disrupt that it has a tendency to bother them.
More important to me is the ability to get the fastball inside on the hitter so you can throw the change away.
More important to me is the ability to get the fastball inside on the hitter so you can throw the change away.
I feel the changeup doesnt have to be THAT much off as long as it is good enough to set up the hitter for the next fastball comin.
Most real good changeups are 12-13 mph slower than their best fastball.
Much harder and you'll need more movement. Otherwise you just throw a BP fastball. Much slower and you're in trouble with hitters who can stay back.
There are 4 ways to make the changeup successful.
1. Speed differencial
2. Movement
3. Location
4. Deception (FB arm speed)
If you get any three to work you will be very successful. All 4 and your CH is unhittable!
Much harder and you'll need more movement. Otherwise you just throw a BP fastball. Much slower and you're in trouble with hitters who can stay back.
There are 4 ways to make the changeup successful.
1. Speed differencial
2. Movement
3. Location
4. Deception (FB arm speed)
If you get any three to work you will be very successful. All 4 and your CH is unhittable!
Don't say unhittable Jerry. No pitch is unhittable. I loved changeups 
3 out 4 things you listed will bring much success though
Hope all is well sir.
Shep
3 out 4 things you listed will bring much success though
Hope all is well sir.
Shep
Shep,
All 4 and even you won't hit it.
All 4 and even you won't hit it.
LOL
Your probably right Jerry. Local is kicking tail down here
Shep
Your probably right Jerry. Local is kicking tail down here
Shep
95-97MPH the two I just did reports on>
That usually happens when high school kids can throw 94 with a good breaking ball and command.
He pretty much has been kicking tail for the past year. And those tails belonged to the best high school players in the country.
Has he been above 94 yet this spring?
He pretty much has been kicking tail for the past year. And those tails belonged to the best high school players in the country.
Has he been above 94 yet this spring?
93 is the highest I've seen but expect higher nos. because starts have been in cool weather.
Shep
Sure would like one of those 4.95 deals...
Shep
Sure would like one of those 4.95 deals...
Would say 97 wouldn't be out-of-line as projection for RHP down here.
Shep
Shep
Would probably still edge toward other two.
One is just so tall and lanky with nice loose body that will fill out and velocity will increase, L that is. W is also dynamic in potential projections even though he may be closer to 100% player at present time.
Shep
One is just so tall and lanky with nice loose body that will fill out and velocity will increase, L that is. W is also dynamic in potential projections even though he may be closer to 100% player at present time.
Shep
Any way you look at it though some MLB team will get quality pitchers this year, for sure.
That can be hugely attributed to your efforts sir.
Cudos Brother,
Shep
That can be hugely attributed to your efforts sir.
Cudos Brother,
Shep
We've seen him touch 96. Also seen the other 2 at 96 and better. The one from Texas 98 last summer. All 3 with tall athletic bodies. Also 6'9" mid 90s prep pitcher in New York City, might throw 100 before long! Another tall RHP in CA is at mid 90s right now.
Guess this isn't one of those times to talk about short pitchers.
Did see 6-0 Virginia high school pitcher touch 98 last year and many 95-96.
Guess this isn't one of those times to talk about short pitchers.
Did see 6-0 Virginia high school pitcher touch 98 last year and many 95-96.
Still here, didn't forget about you Jerry.
'Bout ready to turn ringer off on all phones. One of those nights. Must be raining everywhere else too, in FL anyway.
Heard about kid in NY and so many in CA till I would say Stoffel is not the one you are refering since he's not quite that tall.
This is the year for the tall guys though with the exception of one shorter pitcher, 5'11" who we may need to reel in a little bit Reliable source said so...
What time zone are you in tonight? PM'd ya.
Shep
'Bout ready to turn ringer off on all phones. One of those nights. Must be raining everywhere else too, in FL anyway.
Heard about kid in NY and so many in CA till I would say Stoffel is not the one you are refering since he's not quite that tall.
This is the year for the tall guys though with the exception of one shorter pitcher, 5'11" who we may need to reel in a little bit
Reliable source said so...What time zone are you in tonight? PM'd ya.
Shep
PG....
What you state about the CH is obvious and true.....two things I can add and I feel are very important.....
A hitter hits what he see's....pardon my misplaced appostrophy.......
The other thing and it is big....I want to create contact w/ the CH.....ESP even or behind in the count......I'm banking on the fact that I have decieved the hitter w/ the armspeed you speak of.......
1-2, 0-2 (later in the game after I have established the inner half) I may look for a swing and a miss......
This is only if by "UNHITTABLE" you meant a swing and a miss........
If not, then I would only emphasise contact, which would hopefully be soft contact....LOL
What you state about the CH is obvious and true.....two things I can add and I feel are very important.....
A hitter hits what he see's....pardon my misplaced appostrophy.......
The other thing and it is big....I want to create contact w/ the CH.....ESP even or behind in the count......I'm banking on the fact that I have decieved the hitter w/ the armspeed you speak of.......
1-2, 0-2 (later in the game after I have established the inner half) I may look for a swing and a miss......
This is only if by "UNHITTABLE" you meant a swing and a miss........
If not, then I would only emphasise contact, which would hopefully be soft contact....LOL
Speed of a change up?
I have always said, how hard a pitcher's throws a change up will be dictated by
..................
.................
.................the hitter.
The double-stop change is the mother of all off speeds!
What family of pitches is in your arsenal?
cheers
Bear
I have always said, how hard a pitcher's throws a change up will be dictated by
..................
.................
.................the hitter.
The double-stop change is the mother of all off speeds!
What family of pitches is in your arsenal?
cheers
Bear
quote:PG....
What you state about the CH is obvious and true.....two things I can add and I feel are very important.....
Here is another thing>Throw CU for strikes on consistent basis because "MANY" hitters will simply freeze in batter's box and take CU if arm speed is same as FB and not tipped off by slowing down of arm. Shep
The single most critical thing about a c/u is that nothing - absolutely NOTHING - changes but the grip. The mechanics are identical to the fastball, just the grip changes. The c/u is about deception. And the maximum deception occurs when nothing changes but the grip.
The circle chagne and the three finger change will typically take about 12 mph (plus or minus a couple) off the fastball.
Again, no slowing the arm down, dragging the toe, throwing across the body, stiffening the wrist, etc. Use the exact same mechanics, just change the grip.
The circle chagne and the three finger change will typically take about 12 mph (plus or minus a couple) off the fastball.
Again, no slowing the arm down, dragging the toe, throwing across the body, stiffening the wrist, etc. Use the exact same mechanics, just change the grip.
Texan,
I respect your knowledge and enjoy reading your opinions. This is not meant to argue, but would like to see more people give their thoughts. Especially anyone who has thrown the change with success at higher levels. Always willing to change my mind, but IMHO…
Slightly disagree regarding the “circle” change… Knowing that most claim the change is thrown with grip only and release is exactly the same, is what I somewhat disagree with.
We have found the exact same release and wrist action of the fastball will cause the circle change to go straight into the ground. The only way to compensate for this is to release a bit earlier (not good) or keep the wrist action at a minimum at release.
Will not even get into door knob turning, because in my opinion it’s a bit dangerous for young pitchers.
Our emphasis has always been on the ring finger being the last thing touching the baseball. While this may not exactly happen, it seems to make things work correctly.
The circle is definitely a “feel” pitch, much more so than the fastball. You want it to look like a fastball in everyway. That doesn’t necessarily mean you want to throw it exactly the same way as the fastball.
While stiff or locked wrist is not the exact right term, I think straight wrist is closer. This does not affect deception.
If anyone has a video clip of Martinez, Santana or Maddux that can be shown frame by frame, please show.
I think CoachB25 used a good explanation (IMO) when he said “Throw the wrist to the ground” or something like that. Would add... Fastball would be more "Throw fingers to the ground".
What do you think?
I respect your knowledge and enjoy reading your opinions. This is not meant to argue, but would like to see more people give their thoughts. Especially anyone who has thrown the change with success at higher levels. Always willing to change my mind, but IMHO…
Slightly disagree regarding the “circle” change… Knowing that most claim the change is thrown with grip only and release is exactly the same, is what I somewhat disagree with.
We have found the exact same release and wrist action of the fastball will cause the circle change to go straight into the ground. The only way to compensate for this is to release a bit earlier (not good) or keep the wrist action at a minimum at release.
Will not even get into door knob turning, because in my opinion it’s a bit dangerous for young pitchers.
Our emphasis has always been on the ring finger being the last thing touching the baseball. While this may not exactly happen, it seems to make things work correctly.
The circle is definitely a “feel” pitch, much more so than the fastball. You want it to look like a fastball in everyway. That doesn’t necessarily mean you want to throw it exactly the same way as the fastball.
While stiff or locked wrist is not the exact right term, I think straight wrist is closer. This does not affect deception.
If anyone has a video clip of Martinez, Santana or Maddux that can be shown frame by frame, please show.
I think CoachB25 used a good explanation (IMO) when he said “Throw the wrist to the ground” or something like that. Would add... Fastball would be more "Throw fingers to the ground".
What do you think?
PG, all I can say is that it has worked for every pitcher I have worked with. No pronation, no supination (absolutely agree with you on that). No change but the grip. And no balls going straight into the ground.
Now, does the specific release point change slightly? IMHO, that is the "feel" to which you referred. And at this point, someone (not you, PG) may jump in and say "changing the release point is not keeping everything identical". Well, the release point changes slightly for whether you are throwing up & in, or low & away, etc. And the change is so miniscule that the batter cannot detect it.
But I do not teach changing the wrist, slowing the arm, dragging the toe, shoving the ball back in the palm, throwing across the body, etc.
Ditto for the three finger change.
I won't lay claim to credit for originating this. I learned it (and a great many other things) from the pitching coach who taught my son for years (before the PC passed away). It's also worked well for another of that PC's former pupils, he is one of the top pitching prospects in Texas and has committed to a Big 12 school.
Perhaps this is semantics?
Now, does the specific release point change slightly? IMHO, that is the "feel" to which you referred. And at this point, someone (not you, PG) may jump in and say "changing the release point is not keeping everything identical". Well, the release point changes slightly for whether you are throwing up & in, or low & away, etc. And the change is so miniscule that the batter cannot detect it.
But I do not teach changing the wrist, slowing the arm, dragging the toe, shoving the ball back in the palm, throwing across the body, etc.
Ditto for the three finger change.
I won't lay claim to credit for originating this. I learned it (and a great many other things) from the pitching coach who taught my son for years (before the PC passed away). It's also worked well for another of that PC's former pupils, he is one of the top pitching prospects in Texas and has committed to a Big 12 school.
Perhaps this is semantics?
From my college pitching coach: the circle change is a fastball thrown with the middle and ring fingers. The index moves to the inside of the baseball, with the tip of the finger meeting the thumb (hence circle, or in my day, the OK changeup). It's released with the same arm speed without the severe snapping downward of the fingers at release, instead with more of the hand reaching for the target.
I find this intersting because one of the things son worked on with pitching coach in the fall was slowing delivery down on fastball (too quick) and evening it up with delivery of change up (that was slower). He has achieved this by keeping arm angle higher for both. Does this make sense?
I am not quite sure what arm angle would have to do with rushing on fastballs or slowing down on c/u's. But not being there, seeing him & hearing his coaches...
TigerPawMom,
Slowing down body mechanics in methodical nature in loading process of delivery is probably what you meant in reference to FB.
Arm action must still be whiplike in order to maintain velocity. Can't really slow arm down with fastball and 3/4 arm slot should not really change without giving away pitch.
Did Clemson get both games in with Mercer today?
Shep Cares
Slowing down body mechanics in methodical nature in loading process of delivery is probably what you meant in reference to FB.
Arm action must still be whiplike in order to maintain velocity. Can't really slow arm down with fastball and 3/4 arm slot should not really change without giving away pitch.
Did Clemson get both games in with Mercer today?
Shep Cares
I wish I could quote an article but I can't.
Basically it says he worked on slowing down his delivery, keeping his arm angle up. His motion was too quick on the FB and he was slowing his arm angle down on his changeups. They wanted to even things up. I took that as changing some mechanics?
Mercer and Clemson split today, giving Clemson the series. But do not underestimated little Mercer, with all of those LH pitchers.
Basically it says he worked on slowing down his delivery, keeping his arm angle up. His motion was too quick on the FB and he was slowing his arm angle down on his changeups. They wanted to even things up. I took that as changing some mechanics?
Mercer and Clemson split today, giving Clemson the series. But do not underestimated little Mercer, with all of those LH pitchers.
Got that right TPM.
Coach G has done a good job there at Mercer.
He was All-American himself one year back in mid 80's-Division I, I might add.
Think he had 21 HRs and 80 something RBIs with BA around .400 if I recall correctly.
Scouted several players there. One is Eric Renfroe who plays OF-LHH
Program has really improved of late largely due to Coach Gibson's recruiting efforts and networking
Shep-BTW, live down here in FL now. Did Burg get any ABs in the series this weekend.
Coach G has done a good job there at Mercer.
He was All-American himself one year back in mid 80's-Division I, I might add.
Think he had 21 HRs and 80 something RBIs with BA around .400 if I recall correctly.
Scouted several players there. One is Eric Renfroe who plays OF-LHH
Program has really improved of late largely due to Coach Gibson's recruiting efforts and networking
Shep-BTW, live down here in FL now. Did Burg get any ABs in the series this weekend.
quote:Also 6'9" mid 90s prep pitcher in New York City, might throw 100 before long! Another tall RHP in CA is at mid 90s right now.
Know who you're referring to now in CA, must be CT. Good friends with a former Atlanta Braves pitcher named Pat Tillman
Could be Related? The one from NY must be DB. Now that is a unique name. 100MPH is achievable though.
Ravin and Stoffel should also be up there pretty good. What do you have those two ranked Jerry? >if you don't mind me asking.
Shep
Shep,
Burg (catcherdads son) had 2 hits (one of them double), 1 run, 2 rbi! A great day!
Burg (catcherdads son) had 2 hits (one of them double), 1 run, 2 rbi! A great day!
Thanks TPM,
Good to hear! He will get his playing time behind the dish as your son will also on the bump. Hard to be patient sometimes and I admire your's...If you were anything different, we all would know by gist of your posts and I for one respect those who are not sour grapes and are willing to wait there turn
Hope you didn't mind me saying that because it's really none of my business.
Shep
Good to hear! He will get his playing time behind the dish as your son will also on the bump. Hard to be patient sometimes and I admire your's...If you were anything different, we all would know by gist of your posts and I for one respect those who are not sour grapes and are willing to wait there turn
Hope you didn't mind me saying that because it's really none of my business.
Shep
quote:Originally posted by Shepster:
Thanks TPM,
Good to hear! He will get his playing time behind the dish as your son will also on the bump. Hard to be patient sometimes and I admire your's...If you were anything different, we all would know by gist of your posts and I for one respect those who are not sour grapes and are willing to wait there turn
Hope you didn't mind me saying that because it's really none of my business.
Shep
I have no clue what you are talking about.
QuestionTPM,
Has your son pitched yet this year?
I stand corrected> Thought your son was Freshman for some reason.
Cked and feel kinda...you know
Brain-cramp!! Getting old....
Shep Cares
Has your son pitched yet this year?
I stand corrected> Thought your son was Freshman for some reason.
Cked and feel kinda...you know
Brain-cramp!! Getting old....
Shep Cares
Shep,
Guess this must be oneof those examples where one needs to get all the information and facts before they post.
Son has not pitched as he is rehabbing a muscle strain.
You seem to be on top of things here, but you must have missed my post regarding his injury.
In defense of refernence to parents who may have sour grapes because their son is not playing enough as they feel they should, most will look back at the situation and realize that as you move up to different levels (HS,college,pro) there is a waiting period that many players have to go through before they become regular players. They may not realize it at the time, but this is the reality of the game.
Back to change ups.
Guess this must be oneof those examples where one needs to get all the information and facts before they post.
Son has not pitched as he is rehabbing a muscle strain.
You seem to be on top of things here, but you must have missed my post regarding his injury.
In defense of refernence to parents who may have sour grapes because their son is not playing enough as they feel they should, most will look back at the situation and realize that as you move up to different levels (HS,college,pro) there is a waiting period that many players have to go through before they become regular players. They may not realize it at the time, but this is the reality of the game.
Back to change ups.
Good insight TPM about patience.
A teammate of my son plays for a D1 NCAA school in NY state. Last year hardly got off the bench and played poorly when he did. I talked to his mother and she was not happy and was concerned he would not be back this year. He is back and has played as a starter and is truely an impact player.
It is hard to watch your son sit but you have to realize that his time will come. While he is working hard he is also gaining confidence that will payoff when he gets his shots to prove himself.
A teammate of my son plays for a D1 NCAA school in NY state. Last year hardly got off the bench and played poorly when he did. I talked to his mother and she was not happy and was concerned he would not be back this year. He is back and has played as a starter and is truely an impact player.
It is hard to watch your son sit but you have to realize that his time will come. While he is working hard he is also gaining confidence that will payoff when he gets his shots to prove himself.
PG, one other thought. The tightness of the grip is also a factor. I could see how a tight grip could possibly give the result you mention. Using a loose grip allows the ball to, in effect, roll off the finger tips.
