Character test for 3B coach: throw player under the bus?

Well first of all I could careless what anyone thinks outside of my dugout. And my reaction to the play is going to be dictated by how I feel not by how I want anyone to interpet how I feel outside of the guys in my dug out.

The last thing I want to do is show up one of my players and ever try to put blame on them publicly. Its the fastest way to lose respect of your players. Or one of them. Its a teaching moment later when you have the opportunity to talk to the player. Not for just the player but for both of you. If anyone is going to look like they messed up in a situation like that I would much rather it be me than my players and I want them to know that.

You talk to the player later and tell him next time make sure you can score and make sure the ball is far enough away where you know you can make it. And then you tell him not to worry about it, stuff happens and we all learn.

If anyone outside the dug out says the player screwed up you tell them no I told him to go. And if anyone inside the dug out says anything you tell them when they never make a mistake to come back and say something.

Most of my replies could simply read:

"I agree with Coach May"

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But instead you stand there with an air of philosophical acceptance (which the dads interpret as a sign of "guilt").

I could have cared less what the dads interpret.

If you are worried about what the dads interpret then you should not be coaching in the first place.

Of course hindsight is 20/20 .

Never worry / care about what the hindsight coaches think.

Never ever throw a high school player under the bus unless you are paying them and they went through spring training. It's virtually impossible to teach everything in practice. My guess is not too many of us teach this exact situation. We do things during baserunning but THIS situation - probably not. The silver lining here is now you got something to teach the next practice.

Now let's say you worked and worked on this and it still happens - now things change. You still don't throw the kid under the bus - you put someone in who knows what's going on.

First, you'd have to define "throwing the players under the bus" better. If it is an emotional response then I'm sure we've all shown our emotions a time or two on a similar play. If you mean yelling or screaming or... then, no you don't do that. Regardless, this is another thing that has to be practiced. When one coaches baserunning, you have to also include doing so with situations allowing runners to read angles etc. Same with pass ball. Same with being familiar with home and visiting parks. Definately, there is a time to coach this in the dugout as well after the mistake.

CoachB25,
It's hard to define throwing a player under the bus, but an example would be throwing your hands in the air in disgust.

My original post concerned a specific bonehead play--where the 3B coach confers with R3 and instructs him, essentially, PLAY IT SAFE, AVOID MAKING AN OUT, whereupon R3 does the exact opposite....

The consensus here is that coaches should not betray their emotions in this situation. I agree. In this regard, baseball coaches are superior to football coaches.

"The lasting image of the Giants’ collapse Sunday will be coach Tom Coughlin berating punter Matt Dodge for kicking the ball to the Eagles’ DeSean Jackson rather than booting it out of bounds."

"The lasting image of the Giants’ collapse Sunday will be coach Tom Coughlin berating punter Matt Dodge for kicking the ball to the Eagles’ DeSean Jackson rather than booting it out of bounds."[/QUOTE]

He could have said whatever he wanted to that guy in the locker room/meeting room the next day, but doing that on the field was basically telling the world "not my fault, it's his" in an effort to keep some job security. Did anyone really think Coach told him to kick a low line drive right at him? Even though it was a punter, i'm guessing he lost a little respect in the locker room on that one.

Its a different game and coached or should be coached much differently. But having said that I though Coughlin blew a great opportunity to rally his team behind him. In a situation like that if he stands up and says " I blew it. I let my team down today. They went out there and fought their hearts out and then I went and blew it with a bone headed call." How do the playrs react to something like this knowing that the coach covered for one of his players? How do they feel about the coach taking it for the team and looking after one of the guys? I would be willing to bet it would light a fire under his team. Instead he did the exact opposite. He tried to cover it a little but it was way too late.

Players need to know that you are going to fight for them. They need to know you have their back. Yes they are going to mess us and make mistakes. And in private you teach, coach and at times chew some a s s. But you NEVER ever imo show your players up. You never put a loss on your players. You take the blame. You didnt have them ready to play. You didnt make the right call. You didnt ------------------------.

Players who know the coach will put it on the line for them will run through a brick wall for that coach. They will play their hearts out for a coach who has their back. Period

I guess the best bet today is do not say anything just in case somebody sees you lecturing a player on the sideline or in the dugout. do not raise your voice. Yes I must confess at times I showed my displeasure with a player who messed up. never had a problem. today i guess I would last about a week or so if that.

I will not take anything away from the coach of the New York Giants. In that situation it would have been hard for even the most mellow of coaches to not blow their top. Players also understand the emotion of the game. Coming back the next day and regrouping your program and letting them know you have their back and believe in them, and correcting their mistake(s) will do the trick. Now, a coach can go too far, but I do not believe Coughlin did on Sunday.

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Originally posted by freddy77:
The consensus here is that coaches should not betray their emotions in this situation. I agree. In this regard, baseball coaches are superior to football coaches.

"The lasting image of the Giants’ collapse Sunday will be coach Tom Coughlin berating punter Matt Dodge for kicking the ball to the Eagles’ DeSean Jackson rather than booting it out of bounds."

That was the thing I had the hardest time with when I started coaching my kid in baseball after coaching football for 12 years. If I had a linebacker miss a call I would be half way out on the field ripping his butt. I had to learn to do the complete opposite of that in baseball. I still struggle with it but I'm getting there.

quote:

Originally posted by Nicholas25:
In that situation it would have been hard for even the most mellow of coaches to not blow their top.

Not sure why you say that. The punter mis-executed. No different in my mind than your pitcher giving up a walk-off base hit on an 0-2 hanger after the nine-batter was hopelessly late on two fastballs. Shrug your shoulders, what are you gonna do?

If one of my batters stood in the box and admired an extra base hit (in reality, they wouldn't dare) and it cost us the game, then I could see possibly betraying my "displeasure" on the field (definitely back in the dugout). But never on a good faith failure to execute.

Ok I think Coughlin went too far on this one. I don't care what they told the punter to do - where in the heck was the coverage? Jackson drops the punt and then has time to run over, pick it up and then return it 65 yards for a TD almost untouched - come on. How does a coverage team allow that big of a gap for a return????

Also, to give you an idea of why you don't listen to fans as a coach how many saw the Bears - Vikings game? The Vikings punter was kicking the ball out of bounds to keep it out of the hands of Devin Hester - same with the kickoff team. After about the 3rd punt the crowd was booing like crazy. For some reason - maybe the punter missed - Hester caught the ball and returned it for a touchdown. I really hope the Vikings coach wasn't responding to the crowd booing and said keep it in bounds this time.

Want to talk about throwing a player under the bus Coughlin has probably lost his entire team over what he did to the punter. The punter didn't give up 21 points, the punter didn't become conservative on both offense and defense and the punter didn't go with a regular return team instead of his hands team when it was obvious the Eagles were going to onside kick.

I guarantee the rest of the team is rallying behind the punter because after the game he told reporters something to the effect of "I messed up - I was to kick the ball out of bounds and I failed to do my job". That's how you do the right thing.

Coughlin messed up huge Sunday and it really wasn't about X's and O's.

I don't see how you gain or keep the respect of your players when you rip them in front of the fans, opposing team, their family, etc etc. First of all if you have players on your team that are not trying to win who's fault is that? So if every player on your team is trying to the best of their ability to win the game and they mess up and hurt the team do they need their coach to rip them a new one in the heat of battle? How does that help the team? There is a time and a place to teach, coach.

If a player doesnt run a ball out its very simple. You sit him. There is no need to yell or scream or rip his a s s. Just put him on the bench. I have seen many a hard a s s coach who spent the entire game making sure everyone knew he was the coach. Players afraid to make plays because they were afraid they would mess up and get ripped. Players who played because they loved the game in spite of the fact they felt more pressure from their own dugout than they ever did from the game.

Players need to know you are in their corner and you will be there for them. They need to know your on their team right there with them. You teach and coach in practice and then you go to war with each other. They fight for you and you fight for them and you all fight together. You know if you mess up they got your back and they know if they mess up you got their back. And in practice you go hard. If someone screws up and doesnt get it right after being told what to do you rip that a s s. And if they cant get it they dont play. And if they are playing and they screw up you pat them on the back and say go get the next one.

Players want to win. They put enough pressure on themselves to perform and win they dont need a coach putting added pressure on them to win and perform. In fact they need to know you got their back and you will be there for them. This gives them the confidence to go out and simply play the game without having to look over their shoulder at some hard a s s in the dugout.

There is no one that pushes players and demands more of players in practice than I do. I want you to be the best you can be and you better want to be the best you can be or you can go home. But when its game time those are my boys and we are going to win together or lose together. And if we lose I will take it all on me. And if we win its all on them.

Hel we all know the punter screwed up. Everyone in the stadium knew the punter screwed up. The coach by his actions wanted to make sure everyone knew it wasnt him. Thats bs imo. But thats just me. There were 10 other guys on the field that could have and should have made a play. I expect a grown man to be capable of understand the impression he is making on his team in a tough situation. Its an opportunity to turn a bad deal into a good one. Or an opportunity to shift the blame to a player.

A good coach takes responsibility for a loss. And he gives the credit for a win to those that played the game.

Exactly Coach May! Perfectly said...

Lefty

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I don't see how you gain or keep the respect of your players when you rip them in front of the fans, opposing team,

coach may

I agree with you however it seems that the definition of "rip" has changed over the years.

I will def agree with that Will.

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Originally posted by Will:
I guess the best bet today is do not say anything just in case somebody sees you lecturing a player on the sideline or in the dugout. do not raise your voice. Yes I must confess at times I showed my displeasure with a player who messed up. never had a problem. today i guess I would last about a week or so if that.

Come on Will, nobody is saying don't be tough on them or yell at them. He could have ripped that guy a new one in the locker room after the game and nobody would have said boo....he ripped him in front of millions of people on tv to show that it wasn't his fault...that is not leadership and it definately has consequences inside that locker room. Did you hear what his QB said about it, that it was just one play and everyone shares the blame....that is a leader.

The same thing would have been true 100 years ago as well, if games were broadcast over and over and over so everyone would see it.

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Come on Will, nobody is saying don't be tough on them or yell at them.

bsballfan

What is being tough? tough is something that seems to be arbitrated by others. what you can do not do. Now i am not talking about cursing etc etc etc. But the atmosphere today is definitely different than years ago. If you upset the right people you are going to get some flak. What upsets them now is far less than years ago. My opinion based on years of coaching and observing and talking to coaches today.

Excellent posts Coach May.