Cheating

And from another direction: If McGwire had not been subpeonad to appear before Congress, how would his chances for HOF election be regarded?

There are any number of other players who could have been amongst the few called to testify --- Bonds, Clemons, Canseco, Giambi, Pudge, etc. --- is the objection his performance on the field or his performance in front of Congress? And, of course, the emphasis Being Called put on the steroid suspicion.

Would the Summer of '98 given him enough support on its own to get him the votes, probably not on the first ballot, but surely the 2nd?

Mac's career numbers, other than power, aren't overly impressive. As a Cards fan, I already knew he was a Swing Big or Miss Big guy. And that during his time with us, HR represented pretty much half his hits. But how many writers (and people here) have looked up those numbers solely to be seen to be being "objective" and not judging only on steroid suspicions?

Methinks the writers have a very selective conscience. Mac will be denied and by the time Barry et al are on the ballot, with nary a sigh, they will maintain 'well, we can't keep everybody out'.

Orlando,
Although I probably did exactly what you said to be "objective" I found it interesting that despite all the home runs his rbi numbers were about the same as Canseco's. That could have something to do with them being more likely to walk Mac later in his career than they were Canseco though.

redbird,
Perry's actions didn't lead to kids using steroids. That doesn't mean cheating is acceptable, but the reality is that during Perry's era the common approach was that if you didn't get caught it was OK. That approach probably did help lead to the steroid problems of recent years though.

As far as Clemens I do wonder about his "purity" despite the obvious hard work. McGwire was also a hard worker in the gym. The difference there is that I believe Clemens had a HOF career prior to Toronto (that's without looking at the numbers to be sure.)

I have always liked Mark McGwire. I still like him. The battle with Sosa for the homerun title was exciting. However, if it were not for that season, would he be a hall of fame candidate? From my recollection of the events several years ago, he initially claimed to be using a non-steroid supplement to help his muscles recover more quickly. I can't remember the name of the supplement at this moment, but it is popular, legal, apparently not unhealthy, and is available and used by many athletes to this day. If Cansecos allegations are true, then McGwire was not forthright in the statement that I recall. He would have fallen short of the complete truth. It is also my understanding that the steroid he is accused of using was not a banned substance when he played. However, I am not clear, but I do suspect, that it was a regulated substance at the time that probably required a prescription. If that is true, then he would have broken the law if he used it without legally acquiring it. All that being said, after perhaps decades of seeing athletes stripped of titles i.e. Ben Johnson, the 100 meter champion, the common perception has been that using steroids is unfair. Based on the events surrounding the Canseco allegations (which it seems to have at least some truth to them) and the fact that McGwire refused to testify, it paints a picture that deserves an answer. What I mean by that is that if McGwire wants to be in the Hall of Fame, he needs to talk about it honestly. If he feels that his formally public life is now his private life, that's fine by me. However, I would not be inclined to see him go into the Hall of Fame until he explains the situation. At that point, I don't know - maybe he can say something that convinces me that he deserves that special place in history. However, if things are to be left unspoken, I would have to say that he runs a big risk of never getting in.

Finally, I sincerely doubt that the coaches, management, and the league officials were unaware of what was going on. By not responsibly dealing with these steroid issues many years ago, they opened the door for the "cheating" to occur. In a sense, the lack of a league rule encouraged "cheating." Consequently, we will always have to look at any records set in the steroid era with at least an asterisk in our own minds. How can you strip a record if the player did not break the rules? What a muddled mess!

I don't believe he belongs there based on merit.

Of the 10 players baseball-reference.com says are comparable to him statistically, only 2 are in the HOF (Killebrew and McCovey).

Of the 6 players listed most similar by age, only 2 are in the HOF (same two). Others similar-by-age (would you elect these?): Mark Teixeira, Nate Colbert, Richie Sexson, Cecil Fielder. I wouldn't.

So if I'm already on the fence by those comaprisons alone (which I am)...throw in the steriods and its a resounding "no" from me.

Put Joe Jackson and Roger Maris in and I'll think a little more about it.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
redbird,
Perry's actions didn't lead to kids using steroids. That doesn't mean cheating is acceptable, but the reality is that during Perry's era the common approach was that if you didn't get caught it was OK. That approach probably did help lead to the steroid problems of recent years though.

1) Perry was caught...several times.
2) McGwire is now responsible for kids using steroids? No one at the time mentioned steroid use. How can you draw that conclusion?

quote:

McGwire is now responsible for kids using steroids?

Redbird, Until there's a McSteroid on the GNC shelves or available at their drive-up you can you ever blame him for this epidemic.

If thats the mentality I would blame it on the fans who pushed him to break the records.

If Maris goes in then McGwire can get in. But he has to wait as long as Maris did.

As far as the Gaylord Perry example goes, maybe there is a different standard. It seems that some things are acceptable cheating. Scuffed baseballs, corked bats, stealing signs, etc.

Should George Brett be excluded because of the pine tar incident, should any mention of Thompson's homerun be eliminated?

My true desire is that whatever happens to Mr. McGwire, I pray it doesn't detract form the two player who will be elected this year. Tony Gwynn and Cal Ripken. If the media spends as much time showing replays of these two, as they do muscle-bound one dimensional homerun hitters maybe the sportscenter generation will realize that you don't have to have the body of a god, just the heart and desire of Gwynn or a Ripken.

Either I am Naive'

Or you are ALL Naive'

Remember the slogan, the "in thing".

You people waste your time debating this issue, and I really have to laugh

Are you half pregnant, or pregnant?

They all did it...........just Asterisk the era and move on!!

In all fairness to Mac and Bonds - and the former Pudge - and Sammy - I think they deserve some type of recognition in the HOF.

Not so much for the numbers they put up - but rather for the massive amounts of bulk they managed to accumulate.

Most impressive in this wonderful bunch of guys is the explosive growth of Barry Bond's head. It is not easy to do - at any age.

Give these guys some credit.

Let 'em in the Hall - if they can fit.

LOL

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
In all fairness to Mac and Bonds - and the former Pudge - and Sammy - I think they deserve some type of recognition in the HOF.

Not so much for the numbers they put up - but rather for the massive amounts of bulk they managed to accumulate.

Most impressive in this wonderful bunch of guys is the explosive growth of Barry Bond's head. It is not easy to do - at any age.

Give these guys some credit.

Let 'em in the Hall - if they can fit.

LOL

Can anyone please tell me exactly what rule McGwire broke to be called a cheater?

McGuire deserves the HOF on the first ballot, period. Get off your almighty high horse and see the man for what he (and Sosa) contributed - probably to your "child's" positive outlook on baseball - and what they did to bring a country together on some level.

You folks that want to hang him are the same people that support the right wing politics and subsequent freedoms that are rapidly disappearing in this country.

And then you have the nerve to say Perry's "cheating" is o.k. but McGuire's wasn't? That McGuire caused kids to take steroids? Wake up, folks. McGuire did no such thing. The cause for kids taking steroids probably lies much closer to home. But i'ts so much easier to condemn your neighbor than it is to examine yourself.

Have you all forgotten a country being glued to the television for a summer - two summers - and glorifying all that was good in baseball? Have you forgotten what McGuire did and continues to do with his charitable works for kids? Have you forgotten he was taking a legal substance / supplement and did not ever deny it? Forgotten that maybe it was all the hoopla over that substance that got the ball rolling on the current MLB banned substance policy?

Not only does he deserve the HOF, he deserves a thank you and an apology.

Coach O:

quote:

Originally posted by Orlando:
And from another direction: If McGwire had not been subpeonad to appear before Congress, how would his chances for HOF election be regarded?

You pose a very good question. I'll admit that most all of my ill feelings towards Mc Gwire are a result of his stubborn and tight-lipped testimony to Congress.

If I had not witnessed his appearance my feelings would have been much less negative even though all of the facts relating to him are the same.

Keep in mind that all those players were questioned by senators who have a load of skeltons ie Kennedy from MA===sort of makes me laugh

Right or Wrong, McGwire and Sosa helped bring baseball back some well needed popularity a few years after the strike of 1994. Baseball was waning in the public eye and needed a boost, they helped bring it back.

The amount of interested they generated for baseball is actually very comparible to the way Babe Ruth brought popularity back to the game after the Black Sox scandle of 1919.

For that effort, McGwire and Sosa should be recognized in some way for helping the game.

http://www.eteamz.active.com/sites/Hackettbaseball

quote:

Originally posted by itsagreatgame:

Have you all forgotten a country being glued to the television for a summer - two summers - and glorifying all that was good in baseball?

Too bad all of the glory is tainted. McGwire and Sosa were chasing and trying to break a record that was established cleanly and honestly. The two of them knew what they were doing...they're no saviors of baseball in my eyes. Look where it got the game...let's hope the powers that be clean it up...for the true sake and health of the game...and, yes, for the sake of the children...the impresssionable children.

Funny to see that everyone is commenting on Mac but no one has addressed the circumstantial evidence against Clemens.

Mac was accused by Canseco...a wack job in his own right.

Clemens was accused by Jason Grimsley.

Why is there a double standard regarding hitters? It has been reported that steroids aid in the recovery phase and would help pitchers more.

Clemens' stats before TOR, 171-111 with 3 CY awards, 4 All Star and 1 MVP. Not a shoo in HOF'er.

Mac has the poor timing of being the first Name Steroid Suspect.

I expect the sports writers to spew any number of self-righteous columns over the next couple of months.

By next year's vote, it will be a shadow issue.

By the time Bonds is on the ballot, he'll slide right in.

my biggest gripe isn't THAT they cheated. who hasn't cheated? we all have at something,right? sure we aren't national role models.but we are role models,right? it's the fact that 30 years ago we wouldn't know they cheated. the media stirs the frenzy,sells papers ,magazines ,whatever then we get worked up. really are these guy's any different cheaters than pete rose? i loved what pete rose accomplished. more hit's than anyone,ever. and that isn't enough to get in the hall?that's my beef with these steroid guy's.
can't get in the hall or work in mlb baseball.yet a guy whose head grew an inch in the last 6 years is a hero. on the other hand the media left bonds hanging in my opinion by not making a bigger deal about him passing ruth.that's a big deal isn't it?

now that i ranted on about this,i realize once again most of us have much bigger things to get up set about.but thanks for listening.

quote:

who hasn't cheated? we all have at something,right?

20Dad, Are you saying that my integrity is in question along with Mac, Bonds, Sosa, Palermo, Clemens, and the others. That hurts....real bad

But like those guys, I'll get over it, unlike many of those who like to write and read about it.

If you say he should not be in because of merit, I could possibly buy that argument. If, on the other hand, you use the steroid argument I cannot buy into that theory. It is my firm conviction that many, many, many of today's great players have juiced. Like Big Mac, they just have not been caught. I really hope MLB catches every player juicing so that it will pursuade today's young bb players not to use. However, knowing that many, many, many of MLB players have used over the last 20 years really doesn't bother me. It was a part of the culture that MLB accepted, and I enjoyed all the great plays the juiced up boys made My gut feeling is that people on this board believe many, many, many guys have used. Who would have believed Palmerio was a user? The stakes have been too high for most to fight off the temptation to use. It is really as simple as that. Let me remind all of you that a juicer does not really have to look like one. There are different juices for various advantages. Even many skinny long distance runners juice.

I wonder if we were able to dig into the personal lives of our past heros and HOF members that we would not uncover racism, spousal abuse, tax evasion, gambling, and who knows what else. I know that these may not be performance enhancing issues but they may be moral issues that if they happened today we would be calling for their heads. My point is that years ago the population did not have the luxury of the modern media and alot of what happened then went uncovered. I'm not saying that todays guys should be given a pass, rather, we may have given that pass years ago.

Something to think about.

McGwire didn't testify before Congress because he was under oath...which was the smart thing to do. He admitted taking Androstenedione, a legal, over the counter supplement that's a steroid precursor...technically, it's not a steroid. However, the argument can be made that it is....and if he testified that he didn't take steroids, and research showed that what he took technically was, then a case could be made that he perjured himself.

I don't agree with the use of steroids, HGH, and some of the other nonsense players are using...and I say "are", because it's going on as we speak.

At least Big Mac didn't lecture Congress like Palmeiro, or suddenly forget how to Habla like Sammy...he simply refused to answer the question.

There's no telling how many players right now are using HGH or designer, undetectable steroids. If you ban McGwire, you have to ban Bonds...and Ricky Henderson...and Clemens..and Pudge...I believe it was Palmeiro that made a comment about Ripken using steroids...are you going to ban him on suspicion?

Until Bud Selig comes out of hiding and institutes a comprehensive testing plan, the only logical thing to do is to not induct any players from 1990-on, because they can't be considered above suspicion.

One further note on this. Everyone acts like Mac was doing this behind someone's back. Hey, he gave an interview once with an andro package/bottle behind him. It wasn't a hidden needle and syringe! That picture has surfaced several times. Again, legal at that time. When it became illegal, he retired.

BTW, IF YOU ARE BLAMING MAC IN THAT TIME PERIOD OF GETTING THE YOUTH OF AMERICA TO TAKE STERIODS, THEN YOU OBVIOUSLY ARE LOOKING THE OTHER WAY ON ALL OF THE PRO FOOTBALL PLAYERS WHO WERE TAKING IT THEN. I DO MEAN ALL! LETS BAN THEM. I HAVE A PERSONAL FRIEND WHO IS SO CLOSE MY CHILD CALLS HIM "UNCLE" WHO PLAYED FOR A CERTAIN TEAM DENOTED "AMERICA'S TEAM" DURING THAT TIME. HE'S TOLD ME THE TRUTH ABOUT THE NFL AS WELL AS COLLEGE FOOTBALL IN THOSE DAYS AND IT IS SHOCKING!

Make a potential negative into a positive. IMO.

Not only let the Hulk men into the HOF - but give special awards for

1) Biggest mass packed on in one season.

2) Largest cranial enlargement in one season.

3) Best incremental pre/post steroids differential stats.


If it is OK to juice - then stop being hypocrites.

Celebrate the juice - and the HGH and the rest of the animal hormones.

And celebrate these achievements and get these drug-fueled performers into the Hall Of Fame - immediately.

Lets get the junkie party started now!!!

its:

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Lets get the junkie party started now!!!

I'll get some old tracks from Dan Hicks and His Hot Licks and we'll get this Jukie's Ball rolling!

woodie - LOL

This aint no disco

this aint no party

this aint no foolin around.

No CGBG's

I aint got time for that now.

I entered a conversation last night over this topic with an older gentleman who was taking the stance that Mac didn't deserve to be in. Ironically, he changed his own mine. He brought up the book Ball Four and started talking about what those guys were doing including the Mick. He wondered outloud if that behavior was then attributed to the youth of america simply because of the partying of such an outstanding player.

This brings out questions to play. What about amphetamines? Do any of you condeming Big Mac even doubt that the use of amphetamines was out of control in the 60s and 70s? I can tell you one instance where the phrase "Greenie" came up and I was shocked. What about that? Do we now do an investigation of all of those players in the hall that abused amphetamines some of which were obtained illegally?

In my opinion it's simple...

Demand the game be cleaned up.

The demand is simple...the task is not.

Actually, it's easier to clean the game up than it appears.

First, Bud Selig needs to come out of hiding. When the Bonds book came out earlier this year, he promised to read it, then investigate the whole mess. Ever since, he's only been seen on milk cartons.

Second, once he climbs out from his hiding space, he needs to institute a comprehensive testing plan that covers far more than the piddly one that's in place now does. It needs to test blood and urine, needs to be random, and needs to be done far more frequently. It needs to be updated to cover designer steroids as they come available.

Yes, the Player's Union is going to scream and cry. Big deal. If the players want to play, and if they want to make the money they're making, then they'll agree to it. If they don't want to agree to it...they can leave. If Barry Bonds walked away tomorrow, the sun would still rise.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
One further note on this. Everyone acts like Mac was doing this behind someone's back. Hey, he gave an interview once with an andro package/bottle behind him. It wasn't a hidden needle and syringe! That picture has surfaced several times. Again, legal at that time. When it became illegal, he retired.

CoachB25,
Sure Mac claims he used andro, and maybe he did for all we know, and there was a bottle of the stuff, legal at the time, in his locker.

However people act like Mac did this behind their back because it is widely rumored, mainly because of Canseco's book, that the andro bottle was a cover story for what he was really using, much like many athletes would use steroids and/or HGH then come to spring training/training camp claiming that they gained that 20-30 lbs of muscle by using creatine.

Should I Vote For Mark McGwire?

Ya cheat, ya stink!


Kinda simple.

quote:

On the day last month when the current Hall of Fame ballot was released, The Associated Press published a report that included a poll of some voting BBWAA members. The AP came to the conclusion that only 25 percent of those eligible would vote for McGwire, many citing his performance in front of the Congress as the reason.

MLB.com

This whole season hasn't done a thing for my opinion of the intelligence of the average Baseball Writer (heaven knows there are few enough above-average ones).

But "many citing his performance in front of the Congress as the reason"? If they want to call him a one-trick pony, note that Maris had his HR glory but isn't in, even flat-out say that they have too many steroid suspicions , that's cool. But unless somebody's lain chalk around the Capitol Building, that 'performance' should not be their primary reason.

With regard to the question I asked before --- by that statement, it would seem that if he hadn't been called to testify , he would be elected to the Hall.

quote:

who hasn't cheated? we all have at something,right?

WE DO NOT LIE, CHEAT, OR STEAL, AND WE DO NOT TOLERATE THOSE AMONGST US WHO DO.


There are 12,000 college kids in this country who live night and day by this motto. It is extremely difficult to do. Especially with the temptations placed before our youth. But what in life is truly worth it, that is not difficult to do?


Kids follow the deeds of their parents. Something about fruit not falling far from the tree....


cadDAD

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quote:

Originally posted by AcademyDad:

WE DO NOT LIE, CHEAT, OR STEAL, AND WE DO NOT TOLERATE THOSE AMONGST US WHO DO.

I agree with this. BTW, how about that A/N game?

+

Redbird5...

quote:

I agree with this. BTW, how about that A/N game?

Navy's football team has an incredible run going. This graduating class did not lose a single "cross academy" game in 4 years. I'm convinced it's this coach they have. But having said that the AD is a remarkable guy, and has brought a whole new focus to the entire Athletic Dept. Their Women's S-o-c-c-e-r program won League this year and lost to UNC in the NCAA's.

Quite honestly, it's what took younger cadKid so far from home to play ball. The new baseball coach is in his 2nd year, where he took a dismal team with virtually no new players, and completely reversed their W/L in 2006. I haven't seen any practices, but understand from #2 that the workouts are intense, his attention to detail (especially academics) relentless, and his expectations (perhaps placed on him from the AD)are similar to a D1 baseball factory (Fullerton, ASU, et al). What's refreshing is... they expect to win.

Will we see you out at the new stadium in Annapolis when the robins fly?

Anyone else? I'm buying the hotdogs!!!


cadDAD

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Ketchup was sold in the 1830's as medicine.

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