Cheating the front side... why bother?

GunEmDown10,
That's why most people take pop times with a grain of salt until they actually see it/time it themselves.
The D1 coach did the right thing; hopefully his message through to all the catchers there.

I agree, it would be nice if a legit pop-time could be a gold standard again. GED10DaD

GunEmDown10,
Have seen some amazing Pop times posted at some big showcase events I have attended...at one event only 2 catchers out of 15 attending waited to catch the ball before popping up. I'm not talking shifting hips,etc. but most were flat out standing and striding while catching the ball. Never seen a showcase done without most of the catchers cheating to some degree; sometimes it gets pretty ridiculous how much they are allowed to get away with at a showcase.

Just put a batter in the box with instructions to swing at any 2 of 3 pitches, his choice, to keep the catcher honest. Catcher guesses wrong and cheats badly, everybody on the field will know. Yeah, I know...then the showcase pop times will look bad compared to other showcases which the organizers don't want.

PG, I am NOT referring to the showcases your organization runs as far as allowing catchers to severely cheat to get good Pop times. They'll cheat more at any showcase than they would in a game but your staff did a good job of keeping it reasonable at the four PG showcases I've attended.

Everyone pretty much understands the limitiations of simulated pop times. In-game pop times are the "gold standard," and in reality, there just isn't all that much variability in this measurement at the higher levels to really make it a factor that distinguishes between athletes.

I have measured dozens of in-game pop times of MLB catchers. Only a couple were below 2.0. So when I see HS kids with a 1.8 by their name on a showcase profile, I kind of chuckle.

If it is arm strength we want to measure, velocity from the crouch is pretty hard to fake!

Yes, record simulated times must be controlled or they might as well not throw. That way, if one or more of them are "dudes" it's obvious to everyone.

I like SA's idea of having a batter in the mix... nice.

I was very pleased to see the Tech staff force their campers to square up and stay in their receiving positions when getting their recorded pop-times. It made a huge difference in production for some.

GED10DaD

Rob,
If pop time isn't relieable then what is a good velocity from the crouch?

While pop times are quicker at showcases, it is more of a measuring stick on what is possible. All catchers in an event, as long as someone is keeping it somewhat fair, have the same advantage to "pop" as quick as they can. So the pop times are a comparitive measure only. However, no one will be recruited only on his "reported" pop time.

At a UF camp, Coach O'Sullivan commented on a few catchers who were cheating "Are you going to do that in a game?" They quickly changed their methods.

The velocity is dependent on what age group is being considered. Getting above an 80 reading at the recent PG Underclass appears to be elite. But some of the fastest pop times came from a mid 70 throw. So many mechanics to manage.

I think it was Coach May who said it best, show what you got at game speed even during throw downs between innings. He (and I agree) would rather have kids not try to run because of demonstrated throwing capability. I know the former Rays catching coordinator who is now the Phillies field coordinator stated that all pop times between innings are recorded in the minor league system and forwarded to the front office, daily.

quote:

what is a good velocity from the crouch?

For a high schooler, 75 MPH from the crouch is good. Anything above 80 is great.

When you say, "out of the crouch", is that actually from the squat or just the velo on the pop time?

Rob is talking about not cheating. Staying back , catching the baseball then making the throw.

The most popular thing I see when kids are trying to "cheat" on pop times is setting up to throw before the ball is ever thrown. Turning the body to the right , throwing leg behind the non throwing leg. Secondly coming out way before the ball gets to the plate and catching it out in front of the plate with momentum going towards 2b. Then thirdly setting up right behind the plate. Sometimes with the glove actually over the heart of the plate.

The time starts when the ball hits the catchers glove and ends when it hits the mif glove. So there are other factors in play as well. Where are the mif standing when they catch the baseball. Are they standing in front of the bag and then reaching out way in front of the bag? All of these things and others lead people to believe one thing and then not believing it when their son goes to a showcase , camp , tryout and their pop time is considerably higher than what they had him at.

When a kid is used to doing all these things to get a better pop time and then someone says "set up where you would if there was a batter in the box" "dont come out early stay back and catch the baseball first" "square up dont cheat" - they seriously struggle.

When I see a kid set up deep , stay back , catch the baseball first - deep , and then make an accurate throw I want to see this kid even more. When I see the opposite the first thing I think is - "This kid thinks he has to cheat to get a good pop time , hmmm."

One thing you can not cheat on is arm strength. You either have it or you dont. You can cheat and get a better pop time but its no different than starting five yards ahead on a 60 yd dash and running a better 60 time. To those that know and matter your time will not matter. When recording pop times I only record those that are performed in a manner that would be capable of being produced with mechanics you would use in a game situation. I tell players to "set up properly" "stay back" etc. If they dont usually their time is not very good anyway. When you can throw you dont have to cheat. So those guys rarely do. If you feel you have to cheat those guys times are not very good anyway even when cheating.

Arm strength , proper catching mechanics , proper throwing mechanics = good consistent pop times. For these guys the game pop and showcase pop is very close.

You know the funny thing is if these guys would simply understand that if they stayed back , caught the ball deep , worked on their mechanics , they would throw even better than when they cheated. But that would take someone working with them and teaching them the proper way to do it. And then they would have to trust it.

Maybe we should post some YouTube video that shows a kid the right way to do it!
GED10DaD

The best way I know how to say it is "catch the baseball first". Then throw the baseball to second base. I can tell you pitching coaches do not like catchers who dont. And pitchers will not want your son catching them either.

The name of the position is catcher and with that is the implied role of blocking pitches in the dirt. The name of the position is not "thrower out guy" or "stop the base stealer" - that is the pitchers job and you help him out.

quote:

I can tell you pitching coaches do not like catchers who don't. And pitchers will not want your son catching them either.

This was always my view, and what my son's coaches taught him. Catch the pitch, and keep it a strike if it is a strike. THEN throw it.

Last spring I was watching my son's HS game, sitting with a friend, former youth coach of my sons, who happens to now be head coach of our crosstown rival. (They had a bye that day.) He saw my son throw down and asked me if he had ever thought about "pre-setting" for the throw.

I told him that his coaches want him to stay put, get the strike, then throw. He responded: "Would you rather have one-third of an out, or one-third of an inning?"

I told him his coaches want both! But his question did tell me that some coaches do teach their catchers to "cheat" a bit even in game situations to quicken the pop time.

This coach is a good baseball guy, too. He played college, coached a club team in Germany, and his brother had a cup of coffee in the majors.

I agree with putting a batter in the batter's box. That would keep the catchers out of it when they throw. I also think they should wear the gear at showcases. That would make it more realistic too.

I've never seen a pop time simulation at a showcase where the catchers aren't in full gear.

I have never heard of the catchers not wearing gear either. One reason they probably dont use batters in the box is fear of injury. The hitter might not clear on an inside pitch and their could be a collision etc. I have never used a batter.

What your looking for you will see if it is there. The guys that college coaches are going to recruit will show what they need to show. The others simply wont.

I do think the most under coached and poorly coached posistion at the pre college levels is the catching posistion. Not at every school mind you. But by and large. If a kid wants to excell at the posistion they have to love it. And if your son is one of those guys find him a catching coach at a young age. Someone that will work with specifically on his posistion. My son was fortunate that his nephew who 7 years older was a catcher as well and a very good one. He worked with my son alot and it was extremely valuable for him.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
What your looking for you will see if it is there. The guys that college coaches are going to recruit will show what they need to show. The others simply wont.

No doubt!!

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
I do think the most under coached and poorly coached posistion at the pre college levels is the catching posistion.

that's what makes Texas Tech very attractive, the HC is an ex-catcher!!
GED10DaD

GED10,

Some real good thoughts have been put out on this issue. Here's my take.

Every summer we have catchers come from all over the US to our camp. We always check Pop times the first day to get a baseline for each student. You should see the look on the faces of the high school catchers when one of my staff steps in the box with a bat in his hand. His job is to swing and miss on each of the pitches. Have even heard guys mumble "Well there goes my 1.9 at this camp" We teach that receiving is the main job of the catcher back there, and he has to receive first...then throw.

As far as cheating on the front side goes I would never have a catcher prematurely close the front side. The main reason is that I do not want the front side closed early.....I want to to close in time with the rest of the throwing mechanics. I see problems in mechanics appear when kids drop that right foot back to "cheat" that front side closed early.

Problems such as:

1. With the front side closed early this drives the exchange point (throwing hand and ball leaving glove) way to the side of the catchers body and routinely causes the throwing arm to over rotate once the ball is moved back to the launch point behind the catchers prior to throwing. Lots of throws off to the right due to this issue.

2. I see so many kids that have the right foot set back actually drop it back further once their footwork begins causing a throw even more off the back leg.

3. I have seen catchers that have been taught to close the front side early only to be also taught that the first move with that right foot is a jab step forward. Makes no sense since any percieved gain by having the front shoulder closed early will be lost when the right foot steps in front of the left on the jab step.

4. Catchers that close the front side early will have a much more diifcult time blocking a pitch to their right since they are turned away from that side before the pitch is thrown.

5. If closed early the catcher will not present nearly as good a look when he catchers a pitch on the outside corner to a righty. He will end up reaching way across his body and his left shoulder will over rotate to get to the ball and will not offer a very good look to the ump on that corner that this pitch was a strike..

Thats my take,

Coach Weaver

Good points Coach W, thanks for adding. I always like your perspective.

Lately, I've seen more coaches correct a player who's cheating the front side. And, in practice we always try to have a batter in the box when working on game throwing situations, ie. 1st/3rd, SS/2nd cover, throw downs etc. Unfortunayely that amount of time is limited as its at the end of practice.

Not alot of 1-on-1 catching drills in most HS practices. Most are forced to get reps outside of daily practice.

GED10DaD

I just saw this drill, which I think would be a good drill for catchers to not cheat the front side. With a relatively heavy med ball, I think it would be obvious if the catcher cheats the front side because they would be in a weaker receiving position and probably wouldn't be able to handle the med ball. Thoughts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...ture=player_embedded

Thanks for the link, I just bk'd his site. Nice find! GED10DaD

Here is another site that has some decent drills.

www.catching-101.com

Thanks, I need all the help I can get! GED10DaD