CL Post 171 pitcher throws 164 pitches in loss

I would be extremely upset if I were this son's parents, or high school coach, and or just a fan watching this game. I can not remember the last time a pitcher in the majors threw 164 pitches in a game!

Just win, baby. Having not been there and counting the pitches, I suppose I can only guess at what happened, but if it was 164 pitches, you got to wonder. I saw most of the Legion games at Libertyville over the weekend, and I don't think any pitcher went past 8 innings, and most did't get that far. Heat had something to do with it, but it looked like the managers had it set up hoping to get 7-8 innings out of their pitchers, then finishing with someone else. Everyone has a pitcher for a son or if you are a pitcher, it is critical that you teach them or learn to know your limits and to be tough enough to tell the coach when you are there. Being a warrior is a great thing, but sometimes a coach has to know when they have to risk losing with another pitcher. Even worse, this kid ended up losing the game.

Let me first start by saying that David did not lose the game. He might have got the loss but the team lost the game. There were many of oppurtunities for the team to score and we didn't make it happen.

Second, I watched the whole game and David pitched one hell of a game. There was never an inning where he struggled and he didn't throw an excessive amount of pitches in any one inning. The game was going a a good pace and there was enough rest between innings.

Third, David was not overused this summer, averaging less than a start per week, so he was well rested before the start.(the pitcher that came into relief for St Charles pitched 8 innings against us on Thursday and threw 5 more innings on Monday-and they played 2 games between that that I do not know if he threw-so whose parents should be upset)

Fourth, I,ve seen almost every HS coach use and abuse his pitching staff all in the name of winning ( sometimes a meaningless games) let alone a championship game.

Finally, I am sure Fergie topped out near 150-170 pitches when he was completing 25 games a year and making squat, but now you only have to pitch 6 innings for a quality start and get paid millions.

Bill Spinelle

A high school kid who is asked to throw 164 pitches a game is being ABUSED.

Simple as that.

Don't know where to begin to comment on this situation. Did the kid pitch 9 2/3 innings. Yes he did. Did he throw 164 pitches.....NO he did not. The pitch count in the dugout was AT Least 3 dozen less than what was being reported. Maybe 130 pitches is still too many...that is still debatable I guess. However, the player never struggled during the game and never threw even 19 pitches in an inning.

As we all know in reporting, some things are taken for granted and out of context. As with all stories, if you do not see if first hand, it is difficult to really understand the scenario, mechanics, heat, etc, etc.

I will state it again, the player did not throw 164 ptiches as was being reported.

Mr. Spinelle, I have seen either you or if it IS Mr. Spinelle here play and he is a fine player. I think that perhaps all of what you said is true in that he never struggled, etc. Sometimes (always) it is the long-term view that needs to be taken. Look at Kerry Wood...I'm certain that the way he was used by his HS coach has so much to do with his physical problems. It has been documented that the coach overpitched him considerably. In some ways the fact that he hasn't thrown much this summer makes this even worse....it is probably more of a problem to throw much more than you are used to than if you are used to it. Either way it is a bad thing. I didn't mean to blame the loss on the pitcher..just noted that for all of this they lost anyway. The win/loss stat can be a very insignificant and inaccurate indication of happened in a game.

First Mr. Spinelle, there are several points to remember comparing the pitch count of this generation of Major league pitchers to previous generations. The most important is the Major League Players union is so much stronger than it was 30 years ago. Another is that with so much money invested in a pitcher these days; clubs tend to be more conservative in the pitch count and error on the catious side. Also during the last twenty years or so, the setup man, middle relief, and closer have all developed into a intergral part of the game. When we look in the record books its hard to imagine pitchers throwing 300+ innings in the sixties and seventies. Just as it was hard to imagine pitchers throwing in the "dead ball era" ex: Cy Young etc.

Sophplayer, as a fan and parent I am glad that the pitch count was 130 instead of 164 as you witnessed. I am sure you saw the headlines in the Northwest Herald yesterday highlighting the pitch count. I agree with you that several (maybe most) high school coaches allow their pitchers to throw 7 innings with pitch counts 110+. Hopefully these same coaches have allowed these pitchers to build up their pitch count throughout the season. Its disturning to watch a high school game in early April in 40 degree weather and see a pitcher throw seven innings with pitch counts of 120+.

NIL,

I appreciate the understanding...I was tempted to right a letter to the paper regarding the pitch count discrepancy, but what does that really accomplish accept to raise even more issues, etc. My feeling was to simply let the story die and not comment on it to those who were not there nor understood what was going on.

This website is a valuable tool to all people involved in the sport and I just wanted to make sure that the #s were being reported correctly.

Take care and keep posting.

Is there evidence indicating number of pitches thrown and the corrolation to injury? It just seems that there are more arm injuries now than 20 years ago when no one really used pitch count as a stat.

USD 24,
I have heard several theories from people regarding the numerous arm injuries to professional pitchers (and even teenage pitchers).

One is that the players are bigger and stronger whether it be to performance enhacing "vitamins" and/or weight training; therefore the enhanced muscle causes more stress on the ligaments and tendons until it finally results in the injury.

Another is that young pitchers beginning at ages twelve or so, are begin pitching throughout the spring then continue well into summer(with travel and summer ball) and then in a fall league. Afterwards they continue with pitching lessons during the winter and spring, only to be followed by another spring/summer/fall season.

In the seventies when I pitched, there were few travel teams, hardly no fall leagues, and few baseball facilities that offered pitching lessons.

I am sure this year round rigerous schedule for pitchers has had some effect. Just an opinion!

BeenthereIl is spot on.

As a parent of a pitcher I have spent countless hours of research in an attempt to understand the correlation between pitch count (high), pitcher performance, and risk of injury from over use. There have been volumes written. So much that it would make Billy Beane’s eye glaze over. Pitcher Abuse Points (PAP), introduced by Baseball Prospectus, is a quantitative attempt to measure the effects of high pitch counts. I have come to these conclusions.

Pitching is an unnatural motion. Pitching with proper mechanics does not damage a pitchers arm. Pitching when fatigued damages a pitchers arm.

There is a set number of pitches that a pitcher can throw before he gets fatigued.

Each additional pitch causes damage once the pitcher reaches this fatigue point. This damage and fatigue is exponential once this fatigue point is reached or simply put, the risk of injury goes up very quickly with each additional pitch.

Best questimate and quantitative analysis put this fatigue point at 100 pitches per start. This may vary depending on the individual physical and mechanical characteristics of the pitcher. However, pitchers under the age of 25 are more sensitive to over use. Some scales suggest 17-19yr. No more than 100 pitches (105 tops), 20-22yr 110 (130 tops), and 24+yr 110 (140 tops).

IMHO 164 or even 130 pitches is putting this HS pitcher at risk of serious career ending injury. I would have walked to the mound and yanked my son off the field and it would be the last time I would have anything to do with the coaches and organization.

Shame on who ever let this happen!

well heres my say,

1st, AS A CUBS FAN, Kerry Wood doesnt have arm problems b/c of his HS coach. THAT IS RIDICULOUS! He has arm problems because his mechanics SUCK! Have you ever watched how his arm flails all over the place and its never consistent?

2nd, Many pitchers in the pros get towards the upper 100's. (e.g.- Nolan Ryan once threw 250 pitches in a game and he did ok the rest of his career) Anaheim angels closer (i believe it was Troy Percival) threw 16 inn and 267 pitches in a college game, and got the loss.

3rd, Pitch count means nothing on the surface. It depends on whether or not the kid was well rested, has good mechanics, a good workout routine, and makes sure he does all the right things to recover from his outings (ice, run, etc.)

Also Smokey,

Yes fatigue is the beginning of problems, but all that fatigue does is make you focus on your mechanics even more. If you can't do that then yes, you need to come out. But I will use myself as an example. This spring i threw a CG throwing somewhere around 120 pitches. I had 9 K in the game, 7 coming in the last 3 innings and i was also throwing 3-4 mph faster in the 7th than i did in the 1st. Yes I was tired, but i was focused. After the game i ran, iced and did the same the next day and i was fine.

A healthy HS kid with good focus and mechanics should be able throw more than 100 pitches and not have his coach accused of ABUSING him! That is also ridiculous.


Also, as a player, IT IS NOT THE COACHES FAULT IF YOU THROW TOO MANY PITCHES. you need to be smart enough to know when your done. The coach cannot feel how your arm feels, it is the players responsibility to say NO to the coach. PARENTS, DONT BLAME THE COACH. IT IS YOUR KIDS FAULT for not being man enough to tell the coach he cant throw anymore!

WELL HERE WE ARE AGAIN, SORRY GUYS THIS TOPIC MAKES ME HOT

I DONT KNOW MUCH ABOUT THE COACH, BUT I KNOW ENOUGH THAT ANY COACH THAT LETS A KID THAT IS STILL YOUNG, GROWING AND DEVELOPING, THROW 164 PITCHES SHOULDNT BE ALLOWED TO COACH KIDS. PEOPLE MUST NOT GET THE MEMO THAT MOST ARM INJURIES ARENT FROM THE PRESENT TIME, THEY ARE FROM DESPERARE COACHES THAT TAKE ADVANTAGE OF A YOUNG KID THAT WANTS TO PLAY.....WHY A COACH WOULD LET A YOUNG KID DECIDE THAT IS UNREAL..

I DONT CARE HOW GREAT SOMEONE FEELS OR HOW GOOD THEY ARE THROWING.......164 PITCHES? LETS GO BACK THE LAST TEN YEARS IN MINOR AND MAJOR LEAGUE BALL, I BET MAYBE ONCE OR TWICE THATS HAPPENED AND THESE GUYS HAVE THE BEST AND MOST CONITIONED ARMS AND BODIES IN THE WORLD......

ANOTHER THING IS, A GREAT GAME WOULD BE 10 INNINGS 120 PITCHES, BUT IF SOMEOME THROWS THAT MANY PITCHES IN THAT MANY INNINGS OBVIOUSLY HE IS GETTING BEHIND ON BATTERS

PLAYING AND COACHING ON A SUMMER TEAM THAT IS KNOWN FOR HAVING GUYS COME IN BETWEEN 80-95 PITCHES IN 7 INNINGS I JUST DONT GET HOW 160 SOMETHING PITCHES IS EFFECIANT


I DO APOLOGIZE IN ADVANCE IF I OFFENDED ANYBODY, BUT THIS IS JUST A TOPIC THAT GETS ME WILD UP, AFTER WATCHING A SEGMENT ON 14 YEAR OLDS HAVING TJ SURGERY

TGONG,

Your attitude scares me! It’s your arm and career?? Do your homework. Get the facts. Seek out those that have authoritative knowledge such as an orthopedic surgeon or physical therapist that specialize in sports medicine, better yet baseball sports medicine. This dialog is not a debate. Believe me I truly have your best interest in mind. I honestly view this as a public service announcement. This isn’t about how you feel this is about the physiology of sport medicine.

God Bless and Good Luck. I don’t know how this PM stuff works but please send me a PM so that I can introduce myself.

indian08,

I concur.

I want to send this to our team doctor, Dr. Pete Tonino, one of the best around, who has done a lot of work on this topic......im sure he would have some great thoughts on the situation

Smokey

Thanks, i was a little worried i came off as being a jerk, but on the topic i have some strong views so I do appreciate your understanding

I just want to comment again. I am not the manager of this team, but as mentioned earlier in the post, 164 pitches were not thrown. The pitch count was 131. Once again that # could still be debated whether it is too high, etc.....but it certainly not the 164 that the newspaper reported.

The topic is an intersting to read...no doubt, but I just want to make sure the numbers are correct.

Now back to the debate................

Smokey, (you can introduce yourself by email at tgong1987@comcast.net)

Look, I have done my homework and i know what im doing and i will say that i have been pretty successful at what i do. (1.43 era with 40k to 10 bb this summer) To me it sounds like you think i am a guy who will go out and throw until i can't move my arm anymore. you couldn't be farther. I know that my body couldnt handle 167 pitches(or 130, whatever it was) while maintaining efficiency, and when i am not efficient anymore, I walk up to my coach and say, "skip, i am going for a run, i will see you in about 15 minutes. When i return, please have a bag of ice waiting." Generally that moment comes after about 90 pitches, but as i said earlier, I have thrown past the century mark, and I am ok.

Like i was saying before, if you are going to pitch, you have to be smart and pay attention to what your body is telling you. As soon as you feel you cannot throw effectively anymore, you leave the game. I would say that i am one of the few HS pitchers, if not the only one, who is willing to sacrifice a win for my arm. I am the ONLY one responsible for my health when im out on the bump. I wish more kids, especially underclassmen who are trying to prove something to their coaches, were mature enough to do the same thing. They just don't realize that at the end of the day, this great game that we all love and have spent countless hours playing and watching is just that, A GAME. In 20 years, no one is going to remember that CG win that you got by throwing too many (i cant put a specific # on it) pitches, UNLESS you got hurt and that was the last game you ever threw.

What I am mostly trying to get across here is that if you are it is possible for a HS pitcher to throw 130-160 pitches and be ok. But most importantly, I want all pitchers reading this to realize that THROWING MORE PITCHES THAN YOU ARE CAPABLE OF IS NOT SMART AND IF YOU DO IT OFTEN ENOUGH YOU WILL GET HURT, NO QUESTION ABOUT IT. SO BECOME MAN ENOUGH TO WALK UP TO YOUR COACH AND SAY "IM DONE." IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN HEALTH, YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN HEAR YOUR BODY TALK TO YOU, MY ADVICE IS LISTEN TO IT.

Pitchers and parents of pitchers (and coaches) I am not asking anyone to take my word for anything. I implore you to do you own research. Places to start may be ASMI (American Sports Medicine Institution), ABF (American Baseball Foundation), USA Baseball Medical & Safety Advisory Committee, Baseball Prospectus (an egghead baseball think tank). Read about the epidemiology and biomechanics of pitching, and kinematics studies on proper baseball delivery. “Google” rotator cuff and labrum tears, medial collateral ligament, soft-tissue structure of the shoulder joint, and Tommy John surgery. Read the step by step biomechanics of the stress put on a pitcher’s elbow while throwing. It’s like reading a train wreck in slow motion, microscopic tears and in some cases acute ruptures. OUCH! This is the normal occurrence. You may talk your son into playing the outfield or work on his hitting and just DH.

This isn’t about “workhorse” professional pitchers like Ryan and Johnson, both of whom did not start carrying large number of inning (130 average) until after 30 (mostly because of control issues). These two examples are far from the norm. No one can tell if a pitcher is capable of being a “workhorse” at high school (or even college). Projectability is a word used by pro scouts and college recruiters because high school pitchers are still physically (and mentally) developing. NOTE: I have seen data on the number of pitches thrown for Nolan Ryan and I believe the highest I saw was somewhere in the 150’s, nowhere near 250.

Statistical research on baseball is relatively young 20 to 25 years. The study of pitcher abuse (i.e. PAP) is only about 5 years old. That being said, I truly don’t believe that coaches are intentionally trying to hurt their pitchers but ignorance is not a defense.

I stand by my earlier posts and I will not agree to disagree on this point. The information is out there. There are a lot of variables that go into determining pitcher overuse; frequency of play, type of pitches thrown, velocity of pitches, throwing mechanics, pitchers age and physical development, and pitch count.

What a bag of wind……

“Once you fatigue, it affects your mechanics and you can’t pitch with the precise timing required for a smooth, compact motion.”
Nolan Ryan