Clone the Pitcher?

Guess the accuracy of those quotes depends very much on who was the pitching coach.

Heck, if the former MLB pitching coach is right, he should have quit. He wasn't needed. Just let the pitchers do whatever "feels good" and is "natural".

That's what neither are saying. What they are saying is the cloning of players is wrong. Both work with pitchers including Kazmir and others.

Just to throw this into the equation.

Ever wonder why dominican and japanese as well as any of the other foreign players come into the league and dominate...until they are taught what is "right?" K-rod, Nomo, Kim, etc. MLB coaches still naively believe that the new and technical ways to teach are superior to our bodies infinite intelligence. I'd rather see a kid throw naturally from the beginning with very little verbal or demonstrative education. After all, do you really think that a dominican kid that lives in a shack has access to motion analysis and Dick Mills videos?

Just sayin...

Dave

i agree, but the dominican kid that lives in a shack has magor league baseball schools all around him.and if not probably knows someone who has been to one.
i think we clone players with what we know.or the best guy knows.and really who knows whats right?but we all can see what works.

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Originally posted by baseballpapa:
A different pitching coach (former major league pitching coach)...
"I can almost always tell a kid who has had a lot of lessons. He is mechanical, choreographed and minimized and labored in his movements. [end of quote]

I must disagree with this as a broad statement. What he is saying is absolutely true of some pitching coaches. But not all. I have seen kids who went to the same pitching coach every week for years. And these kids were all noted for their seemingly effortless delivery.

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This section says beware of the coach that touches the unique parts of the kid's mechanics and style. Amen to what the pitching coaches say.

I am extremely grateful that my son's PC altered some of what were the "unique parts" of my son's pitching style when he first started taking lessons. Those unique parts were not good mechanics.

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Furthermore, the veteran player out of pro ball often teaches what THEY did -- they are not the right coach for your kid.

I would agree with that statement. Often true. And too many teams, the vet doesn't even know exactly what it was he did that made him good.

Parents do need to be cautious of coaches - private or otherwise. The parents themselves need to be students of the game. They need to analyze what the coach is teaching to see if it makes sense and withstands scrutiny.

Good coaches are hard to find.

quote:

Originally posted by baseballpapa:
From a pitching coach...

"People teach stance in hitting for example, and clone pitching delivery even though no two Major League hitters or pitchers in Major League history have EVER been exact in their stance or delivery. Choreographing hitting, pitching or defensive movements are gigantic waste of training time."

While no two pitchers look the same, there are certain things that all good pitchers do. So, while pitchers can differ in certain aspects of their deliveries, you want them have those attributes that common attributes that contribute to success.

quote:

A different pitching coach (former major league pitching coach)...
"I can almost always tell a kid who has had a lot of lessons. He is mechanical, choreographed and minimized and labored in his movements. Most of the time he is simply trying to follow directions and comply and conform to his instructor's or his Dad's model of ideal and thereby please his parents or instructor. This is a recipe for failure. A recipe for being stuck on 'average'.

Pitchers who are in early stages of learning will naturally look mechanical as he tries to repeat certain aspects of the delivery. This is a normal step in the progression of learning pitching or any other physical activity.

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While he is spending time trying to look a certain way, he is not learning to be dynamic, athletic, explosive or the unique athlete his creator has designed him to be. The tem I use is this kid has been 'institutionalized'.

These things represent a more advanced step in the learning progression and are not expected at the earlier levels. They are expected to improve as the pitcher advances.

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My advice to parents is either get an instructor or a system that understands this reality and won't neuter your kid ... or stay away from lessons all together." [end of quote]

The catch is that most parents don't know enough to select a truly knowledgeable instructor.

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I have been writing a hitting book over the last 10 years, just for me. I have a section on "the fingerprint". This section says beware of the coach that touches the unique parts of the kid's mechanics and style. Amen to what the pitching coaches say. Furthermore, the veteran player out of pro ball often teaches what THEY did -- they are not the right coach for your kid.

I agree that coaches can overboard and try to clone pitchers. What's really happening is that these coaches have a "lense" that they look through and can only seen things one way. They try to make pitchers fit that lense. Those pitchers that can be made to fit might be successful. Others won't and it's not their fault.

I have always felt that the best pitching instructors take a kid's natural throwing style and incorporate it into his pitching. They should not break down a kid and start all over. They should watch a kid throw, and start by correcting flaws that could lead to injury or ineffectiveness. Personally, I am a very strong proponent of good mechanics. But, I know that over the years, with experience, I understand that that specific mechanics can cause problems for kids. You want a smooth, safe, repeatable delivery. That is what I encourage with our pitchers. Pick up a ball and throw it with your natural motion and eliminate the flaws. Do not make all your pitchers throw with simply your view of mechanics, your view could change or could be wrong. Help them be efficient.

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I'd rather see a kid throw naturally from the beginning with very little verbal or demonstrative education. After all, do you really think that a dominican kid that lives in a shack has access to motion analysis and Dick Mills videos?

Have you ever gone to the "draft day" of your local little league?

I would advise you to do that and see just how many of those young kids throw or hit "naturally". Extremely few kids literally can play this game naturally, they all need to be taught to some degree.

The idea of "cloning a pitcher" needs to be more tightly defined. You would certainly not want ot teach Dontrel Willis' delivery to a 9 or 10 yr old. On the other hand, would not Pedro Martinez or Roger Clemens or Tom Glavine's mechanics be an excellent model to use to teach those same kids.

If you saw a big 11 yr old with a strong arm, but terrible mechanics, what would you do?
Would you not begin to teach him from the ground up how to pitch. Start by getting him into a good position with his leg lift and slight hip turn...etc. He is not going to "naturally" develop that on his own. If you teach him how to do that, are you not then at that moment beginning a "cloning process" based on how you as a coach want to see the components of the delivery operate ?

In regards to the dominican players, baseball is away of life for the kids in those countries. Fierce competition leads to the those with the best skill sets gaining attention and then getting the best of MLB's resources. Even there though, there is someone (a dad, brother, local coach) who is helping those young phenoms along. Those who have access to someone with a good understand of pitching or hitting will easily get a "leg up" on the rest. If you go there you will find there are a great many kids there with all the ability, but just have not been taught how to apply it correctly yet. That is why MLB has so heavily invested in the camps and training facilities in the Latin American countries and other places such a Venezuela.

Topics like this are usually a big waste of time. Trying to debate this stuff will make you crazy ; if it hasn't already. Which is why I will not comment on anyone's ability to train someone else. A lot of guys think they have a new and different way of teaching that only they understand and actually works. That's great. Why don't you teach us something if you are so confident of your ablilities and have enough time on your hands to tell us what not to do. I'd really like to hear your take on exactly what we should do to teach our kid to throw a 100 plus fastball like Zumaya and have a hook like Zito. If you can teach us that, then maybe it's worth reading your post.

This is not meant to be harsh but I have heard this same song over and over with no real offering of content from those who make such statements. And the few who do are just spouting the latest propaganda from their favorite guru and usually get that a little screwed up.