Closed Thread

Agreed, CADad. I think closing threads should be reserved for discussions that have gotten out of hand, veered into insults, or gotten abusive.

The thread they locked was none of these. What the heck? It doesn't do umpires a service when they treat these discussions as if they were on the field of play, authorized to "eject" anyone at any time and shut down the argument.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
Agreed, CADad. I think closing threads should be reserved for discussions that have gotten out of hand, veered into insults, or gotten abusive.

The thread they locked was none of these. What the heck? It doesn't do umpires a service when they treat these discussions as if they were on the field of play, authorized to "eject" anyone at any time and shut down the argument.

Let's use that analogy a bit. I'm not a moderator, but have had a bit of experience in online conversations with the two, so this is what I'm guessing is the logic:

On the field, there's a controversial call--manager comes out to discuss it. Umpire lets manager state why he thinks the call is wrong, umpire states what he saw, manager starts repeating what he already said. At that point, the umpire needs to say, "Okay, John, I hear you, let's play ball," and terminate the discussion precisely to avoid ejections. Once a manager starts repeating himself, if left to his own devices, he's just going to get frustrated and the situation will escalate. So, shutting down the conversation without invalidating the manager is the best way to go.

The thread wasn't shut down by umpires. It was shut down by moderators doing their job. The posts became repetitive with nothing advancing the topic, nothing new being added, the OP having been correctly answered and no resoltion in sight for the ancillary arguments.

Good decision MST and/or PIAA.

Rob.
It was intertesting to read true.
Appears to me that the "problem" and the inability to reach common ground, is because the 2 sides, umps and non-umps, are using an enirely different frame of reference.
The umps, in game, live in a world of "revealed knowledge", ie the rule book and MLB's interpretation of same. The rule interpretation taught is that there is no tie. So thats it, the end. Why are we talking about it anymore?
This clashes, obviously, with the real world when, clearly, a tie, as defined by too close to tell within the measurement system being used, is possible. Those of us that work in fields where revealed knowledge is spat upon have difficulty with this for obvious reasons, hence the repeated "but look it is possible"'s that keeep coming around and driving the umps nuts.

Maybe think of it like the theatre where it is "neccessary to suspend disbelief".

The game requires an outcome....safe/out. Therefore the game simply tells the umps whats true.. no ties just call it. I think the topic was closed because the umps have been down this road like several thousand times before and they simply weary of it.

quote:

I think the topic was closed because the umps have been down this road like several thousand times before and they simply weary of it.

Yes more than I care to remember. But I don't think that is why... Jimmy put it the best... it was going nowhere fast...

That is exactly what I was saying .... the umpires grew weary of it, so they shut it down.

Most of the rest of us, when we grow weary of something, we just stop doing it ourselves. But for the moderators here, it wasn't enough just to stop participating - they/he had some need to stifle the conversation altogether.

How do you know that nothing else of value will come up in the thread? Heck, it was after the first threat to close down the thread that 3FG came in and gave some pretty darn definitive information about the limits of human perception, from his personal professional experience testing for such things.

I'll bet Jimmy and others thought this thread was "going nowhere fast" long before 3FG came in with that excellent information.

What is apparent here is that the umpire mindset is uncomfortable with open discussion about matters he has already made a decision upon - just like in a ballgame.

It is actually very interesting.

When did "going nowhere fast" become a basis for closing a thread? When things are going nowhere, their value reduces to a point that no one comes back and adds to it. That certainly wasn't the case in this thread.

It seems like the moderator couldn't stand allowing folks who wouldn't buckle to his superior views to continue to defy his authority.

Great precedent for this board.

(And I am a moderator.)

We've been lumped together, boxed, and shipped down the same river. Well done. Now, I am on the same level as those backwoods umpires who don't know the first thing about being an umpire. Great!

I love how one person "knows" what everyone else is thinking. Also, how things need to be handled on a ball field is an "umpire mindset" and thus translates over to here. Bravo.

We, all, think, talk, and act the same. Doesn't matter what part of the world we are in or what we deal with in our "neck of the woods". We are all the same. OK.

Rob

Agree totally

Bad threads usually die on their own due to lack of interest

What we see here in this thread is the typical umpire mindset--"we are KING" and WE rule even if we are wrong

88 replies and 1,478 views is an above avg. discussion. All umpires posted replies and answer's in detail.

If your not getting the answers you need from the umpire moderators and the other umpires posters then please go discuss it on your or some other message board.

This post like a few others is already approaching negative and derogatory comments toward umpires and or these umpire
moderators.

Again, please find another message board to vent any frustration you have with this umpire message board.

Another umpire heard from !!!!

Mr. Umpire -
The fact is, on the topic of this thread, every umpire DID have the same opinion. That is not surprising or unusual.

But on the decision to close the thread, I believe the umpires who chimed in were also all of the same opinion.

So it isn't exactly inaccurate to "lump you together" for the purposes of this topic.

And drawing an analogy to controlling the baseball diamond, which is an umpire's job, and controlling debate on a message board that isn't anywhere near to violating the standards of this site - it is a valid analogy.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Rob

Agree totally

Bad threads usually die on their own due to lack of interest

What we see here in this thread is the typical umpire mindset--"we are KING" and WE rule even if we are wrong

Typical? Your comment is typical of your mindset toward umpires. Unlike some posters, I go after the individual and not lump all together.

If umpires are perceived as acting "king" on the field, so be it. I'm not wasting my time trying to convince you of how wrong you are. You don't know who you are talking about nor any evidence of it toward any one poster on here. Yet, you make baseless claims against all.

That is a typical TRHit post.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
Mr. Umpire -
The fact is, on the topic of this thread, every umpire DID have the same opinion. That is not surprising or unusual.

Could that be b/c of training, manuals, and trying to remain consistent with all other umpires. In one breath, fans/players/coaches want consistency. Then, in another, complain when we are.

Typical umpire hating mindset.

Mr Umpire

No more typical than yours especially your closing tagline --Don't settle for a " That's the way it is" answer---Most coaches don't when discussing a point with the umpires but it still does not change their erroneous decisions

Ask dash---make the correct calls and do a good job as umpires and you won't hear a word from myself, my coaches or my players

Umpires are there basically to call strikes and call runners out. Their favorite call is and has always been throughout the history of the game.... "Out". They use the rulebook in aiding their decisons to make an "out" call, not to call a runner "safe" (which often they don't signal).

Shame thread was closed as when I played the ball had to beat the runner to 1st base for an out and at all other bases the runner had to beat the ball in in order to be safe on a force play. Appears that the rules have been revised. Used to be there were not really "ties" at 1st base as the ball either beat the runner or it didn't...if it did, runner is out and if it didn't the runner is safe. Now after reading this thread I am not sure what criteria is used these days for close plays at 1st...but in reality it doesn't matter because it is whatever the ump calls, which hasn't ever changed.

Bad call, good call doesn't matter it is what it is...ask the Tigers pitcher about the lost perfect game this year. Gained alot of respect for that ump and how he handled himself.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
Mr. Umpire -
The fact is, on the topic of this thread, every umpire DID have the same opinion. That is not surprising or unusual.


Could that be b/c of training, manuals, and trying to remain consistent with all other umpires. In one breath, fans/players/coaches want consistency. Then, in another, complain when we are.
Mr. Umpire -

Typical umpire hating mindset. Big Grin

I wasn't "complaining" about this fact, I stated explicitly that it wasn't unusual or surprising that all the umpires would agree on the original issue. for exactly the reason you state - because of training.

What I DID find unusual, is that all the umpires ALSO agreed with the decision to close the thread. And that I do find unusual, but as I said - I think it reflects an umpire mindset.

What mindset is that? On the field, an umpire gets to decide when the argument is over. Closing this thread is the same mindset spilling over to this thread.

I don't think this claim is either untrue, nor offensive. It is simply an observation.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
I wasn't "complaining" about this fact, I stated explicitly that it wasn't unusual or surprising that all the umpires would agree on the original issue. for exactly the reason you state - because of training.

What I DID find unusual, is that all the umpires ALSO agreed with the decision to close the thread. And that I do find unusual, but as I said - I think it reflects an umpire mindset.

What mindset is that? On the field, an umpire gets to decide when the argument is over. Closing this thread is the same mindset spilling over to this thread.

I don't think this claim is either untrue, nor offensive. It is simply an observation.

All? I never said to close it. Yet, I am thrown in there AGAIN.

I only say that when useless posts come from he who will remain unnamed as he has done in this "umpire bashing" thread.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Mr Umpire

No more typical than yours especially your closing tagline --Don't settle for a " That's the way it is" answer---Most coaches don't when discussing a point with the umpires but it still does not change their erroneous decisions

Ask dash---make the correct calls and do a good job as umpires and you won't hear a word from myself, my coaches or my players

My tagline is NOT for the field. It has nothing to do with the field and how things are to be handled there. Not by a coach and not by an umpire. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with a baseball field.

It is about posters like you who make baseless, useless comments with NO evidence to support it. Then, expect everyone to accept your perception/interpretation as fact and that is it. You prove that with every umpire bashing post you make and continue to do so. You have done it in this thread 3 times alone.

In fact, I came up with it after posters, who are suppose to be umpires, began the same nonsense you do. And, then just expected everyone to accept it b/c they said it was so. It was derived for umpires against "know-it-all" umpires who make false claims with no support.

Only if you perceive them as "correct". When the umpire perceives as correct and you don't, right or wrong, you will be out there looking like a fool as most "typical" coaches. Time for some "lumping".

Mine is deliberate and you miss the point. Typical.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
That is exactly what I was saying .... the umpires grew weary of it, so they shut it down.

Most of the rest of us, when we grow weary of something, we just stop doing it ourselves. But for the moderators here, it wasn't enough just to stop participating - they/he had some need to stifle the conversation altogether.

Oh my God. It was a conspiracy. I understand it now.

Poor Jimmy. I do feel sorry for you.

This thread is a good example of why censorship is a poor tool to use to combat speech that is not welcome. The thread should be allowed to die on its own. No one is compelled to participate or read it.

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
This thread is a good example of why censorship is a poor tool to use to combat speech that is not welcome. The thread should be allowed to die on its own. No one is compelled to participate or read it.

Agreed.


But I would disagree that the closed thread was closed dues to "speech that was not welcome." I believe it was closed because all the welcomed speech became repetitive with no new information, direction, or purpose. It became an internet board version of "Yes it is" - "No it isn't."

Whereas, this thread, as ridiculous as it is between the whining and the nose tweaks hasn't reached that point, and most likely won't be visited enough to reach that point.

I know I'm done with it.

this thread is going nowhere fast...

quote:

Originally posted by cball:
this thread is going nowhere fast...

LOL. Are you an umpire?

I originally said something about closing it simply because it was going in circles with nothing new. I hoped that it would either wind up on it's own or take a new direction so I left it open.

Then Tex said that we might as well close it and he was the one that started it. Go back and read the request. I went ahead and did as asked.

I assure I can take heat and will willingly discuss rules until the cows come home. The problem was that every umpire had said that we rule on safes and outs. We said the ball must beat the runner. There is nothing really left to add. I have no problem with why do we work that way but simply doing a, "Does so, does not" discussion serves no purpose.

I will never close a thread because you don't agree with me or anybody else. Stan and my style for moderating is a hands off policy. However, name calling or straight bashing will not happen.

When this thread gets closed, will we have another thread discussing the closing of the closed thread thread?

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:
When this thread gets closed, will we have another thread discussing the closing of the closed thread thread?

And, thus, the circle will continue. I hope not.

Let's not get carried away with the umpire bashing, folks. I have great respect for the umpires on this board. They have a difficult job and, as far as I can tell, are quite dedicated to doing it well.

It's fun to be able to debate stuff like this. Baseball is the ultimate thinking man's game and this forum provides a great opportunity to examine both the way the game IS played/called and the way we think it SHOULD be. We should be able to discuss what the CORRECT call is in a given situation and still be open-minded enough to challenge if it is the RIGHT call without all the venom. With a little tolerance and respect, this is one of the greatest baseball sites there is.

quote:

The thread wasn't shut down by umpires. It was shut down by moderators doing their job. The posts became repetitive with nothing advancing the topic, nothing new being added, the OP having been correctly answered and no resoltion in sight for the ancillary arguments.

Good decision MST and/or PIAA.

Gotta go with Jimmy on this one. His cartoon of the guy beating the dead horse was right on the money. Semantics for the sake of argument....what's the point?

<B>Geez! What is this impulse to shut down debate? You guys rule that you are tired of being challenged and so lock down the thread?</B>

It has absolutely nothing to do with anybody challanging anything. Read my post above and it will explain it. One thing I assure you that PIAA and I will never do is shut a thread down because somebody disagrees with us or challanges our ruling. Endless running in circles or name calling will cause our action. I wish to never have to intercede. To be honest I could have left that one open but there was nothing being added to further the discussion and I could see it leading to nastiness if not stopped.
It is an example of what we do on the field. We see a explosive situation and we do our best to defuse or redirect the problem. If that means sending a coach back to the dugout or locking a thread then so be it.

I wasn't going to post anything here but....

I've had experience moderating a message board with over 20K readers and posters. So I have a little bit of experience when dealing with circular or controversial posts and threads.

To the umpires out there. If you want a thread to die like the one that was there before, don't answer any more questions concerning it. If the people there are just there to argue then politely say exactly what you said there and then leave it at that. The only reason why people come to look at the thread at that point is so that they see the argument between umps and some posters. If you don't fall for the ploy and just ignore those posters then the thread will fall off on its own.

But closing it (this is for the moderators here) is one of the worst things you can do. I know this from personal experience. The site I write for is in the gaming industry, more notably in the flight simulation genre, and the weenie factor there is 10x worse than here. If we close a thread because the developer is getting beat up by an argumentative type or two then we get raked over the coals later on for being a 'sellout' to whatever developer we were trying to protect. In the end we get even more garbage. It drives up hits because people like to watch the train wreck but it is painful for us.

I tell developers to just ignore the 'rivet counters' on our site and to concentrate on the legitimate questions. Once the monkey feces throwers realize that they can't get a rise out of someone then generally go away. It is no fun putting out some 500 word diatribe arguing that *** game stinks because the roll rate on the Fw190A5 is .03 seconds off from the genuine model if no one is going to read it. Yes, we have had those kinds of arguments on our boards.

Sorry for being long winded but the best action sometimes is to just ignore people who want to argue but don't want to listen to your explanation.

A very good post on moderating a site. I think if anyone were to search the board they would find therehave been very few threads closed, others fall mostly in the name calling aspect. We pride ourselves as being a user friendly place for coaches,parents and even kids to come ask about rulings. What we don't want are posters getting flamed and that was where that thread was going. We operated this board for years with no moderator at all and has only been in the last year or two that PIAA and I moved from just posters to moderators. I do mod on four boards and used to own a board of my own. Stan mods on more than one board also. We promise to use a hands off approach but we do ask for posters to self censer to a point.