Coaches

From what I have seen it depends on how long the Coach has been with the team. 1st or 2nd year coaches will take the younger kid every time. Sometimes the kid with less skills but better potential.
Long time coaches will stick with the Senior. If they are close in ability.
Not saying good or bad. Just what I have seen.

Hmmmm.....the coaches have left the building!

Maybe I should have added "politics" in the title.

For me; I just see them as one of my players; not a sophomore or a junior. I don't check their birth certificates. The umpire and the opposing pitchers certainly don't care what grade they are in.. that pitcher is trying to get an out.

I'm just looking to do the best for my entire program every day at practice and every lineup i put up. Sometimes you try to develop a kid in a different spot.... but in HS really, we play so few games all that type of stuff is done in practice and we just try to win the games.

I don't look at a sophomore as someone I'm saying, 'wow, I'm going to play him now and he'll be great next year." For all I know his dad will get transferred or he'll go out for the Spring party team.... The only lineup I'm worried about is todays.

If they are truly even in my eyes; then they both get their chances and we let the results on the field talk. If they stay even, they take turns.

great post skip.

I have never seen this in a boxscore: Jr Jim Bob 2-4 Dbl 2 RBI. Sr Bob Jim 2-3 Dbl 1 RBI.

The best players will play. Of course I would like for the upperclassman to be the leaders and the top producers. Why? Because they have been around the longest and have invested the most. But the fact is your job as a coach is to put the guys on the field that give your team the best chance to win the game that day. Our players are our players. They are not Fr Soph Jr or Sr. They are our players.

Coaches that play upperclassman ahead of better options are doing their team an injustice. You are not doing your job as a coach. Your job as a coach is to put the best team on the field to give your team the best chance to win. Also this destroys a team. The players want to win. They know who should be on the field. They know who the best players are. If you do this you lose all respect from your players.

The players could careless what grade their team mate is in. If he can help them win they want him in the line up. Heck if I had a 8th grader that was the best option he would be in the line up. Ive started freshman on varsity before. Why? Because they were the best option. Now some have said what if they are equal do you go with the sr or the jr? They will not be equal. Something will distinquish one over the other. But the one thing that will not do that is seniority. What will do it is - who gives us the best chance to win.

I think we all would agree to that coach.
I think the original argument was jr.-sr. equal talent who plays.

Also, I would disagree somewhat that players always know who should be playing. Some kids put team to friendship and feel their friend should be playing.

Not in our program. We work too hard. Our players want to win too bad. Our guys would let it be known very quickly if this was going on. Its not about your friends getting playing time. Its about winning. Real players that want to win wont settle for having their friend out there if he is not the best option. They want the guys on the field that give them the best chance to win. This just doesnt happen in our program. The coaches are not going to allow it and neither are the players.

I thought I answered how I felt about the Sr Jr thing. We dont have Sr Jr So Fr on our team. We have players on our team. The best option plays. If an upperclassman and another player are in a fight for a job then they battle it out. Whoever ends up being the guy that gives us the best chance of winning is the guy that will play. If they dont separate then they rotate until they do. Someone will win the job. The guy that is the best option will.

Given that "equal talent" means good enough to be on the field, I think I would try to find them both a role in the games since in this scenario, both are equally deserving. The playing time may shake out who is better and deserves the most time. I guess the scenario is that these are the "9" and "10" players (or both tied for "9"), so that the roles may not be full-time, but they could still be substantial. It is HS ball and both deserve a chance to contribute to their school's success and school life.

if your a good player you know who the other good players are. you don't put all the work in so you can play with the most popular kid. players want to win,they know the peckin order.

It's pretty obvious that it has been awhile since most of you have played high school baseball.

While I agree that there are those truly dedicated, I'm going to the next level, eat, breath and sleep baseball players in high school, remember these are high school KIDS and alot of them are playing baseball for the fun of it and would just as soon have their friend playing beside them and having a good time. That's not to say they don't want to win, but I bet if you took a poll and ask your majority of kids playing baseball if they would rather win or would rather have their best friend playing beside them having fun and finishing 500 you would be surprised.

The coaches, a few kids and the parents put winning first, but most high schoolers are not going to the next level and are there to have a great time with a friend.

I also realize this is not the best forum or website to make this comment because everyone here has a kid who is or wants to play at the next level, or at least the parents feel that way!

At my local high school, it is stated in the Athletic Handbook that regarding players with equal talent, the junior will start over the senior.

Coach May and trojan-skipper---Can we clone you so that you could coach at the high school where my kids attend?

play baseball

Who wrote that handbook?

Who decides the talent is equal?


Talk about leaving doors open

That handbook must not have been widely circulated. That's ridiculous!

The heck with the senior who gave you four butt busting years and was not "beat out".

I guess loyalty went out the window many years ago when things got so competitive and the pressure from the parents and A.D's put winning as their #1 priority. Things do change, for better or worse, even in coaches. I guess that's just the society we live in today.

All have a great day, great year and great career in baseball. Hopefully you will have fun doing it!

I'm outta here!

TR, I don't know who wrote the handbook or when it was written. I expect that it was written by the Athletic Director and approved by the Board of Education. The handbook was given to my son when he was a freshman in 2001---another copy of the book was given to another son in 2003, and yet another copy was given to my daughter when she entered this fall. No changes were made to this policy (I will be scouring the handbook with "eagle eyes" for any change at all when my youngest daughter enters the school in two years.) It is the same Athletic Director--who by the way, has been with the school since 1968---who has coached the varsity football team for 25 years. Can you say "conflict of interest"?

As far as who determines talent, well, it seems that "talent" at this school (well, boys talent, anyway) is in direct relation to his talent on the football team.

quote:

Originally posted by thats-a-balk!:
It's pretty obvious that it has been awhile since most of you have played high school baseball.

While I agree that there are those truly dedicated, I'm going to the next level, eat, breath and sleep baseball players in high school, remember these are high school KIDS and alot of them are playing baseball for the fun of it and would just as soon have their friend playing beside them and having a good time. That's not to say they don't want to win, but I bet if you took a poll and ask your majority of kids playing baseball if they would rather win or would rather have their best friend playing beside them having fun and finishing 500 you would be surprised.

The coaches, a few kids and the parents put winning first, but most high schoolers are not going to the next level and are there to have a great time with a friend.

I also realize this is not the best forum or website to make this comment because everyone here has a kid who is or wants to play at the next level, or at least the parents feel that way!

I beleive that what you state above is most likely what occurs in many HS programs. If a coach uses the above philosophy, doesn't make him good or bad. There are all different situations and in some cases there is NOTHING you can do to change it. I like the idea that a coach doesn't see a player as a frosh, soph, junior, senior but it doesn't always exist everywhere you go, even in the college game. You tell your son to work hard and be ready and when he does get into the game, show your stuff and as I have seen in many cases, that eventually leads to being in the game everyday.

I have to correct something that I said in another post. last night I came across my son's pitching stats for his HS junior season. He had pitched 65 innings! I was shocked as I had been thinking less. The seniors got the start and handed over to son when they couldn't get it done. I must have been wearing my rose colored glasses that year, thinking he deserved the start and not relief, the difference being we never said a word and kept it all to ourselves.

I can't speak for anyone but can for myself as a parent. I have found that parents or players who complain their son doesn't play because of politics needs to take off their rose colored glasses. I am not stating that some type of "politics" doesn't exist, but I have found and most likely most of the coaches here have found the same, the biggest whiners come from those that are not playing everyday just because someone IS better than them.

quote:

Originally posted by thats-a-balk!:
I think we all would agree to that coach.
I think the original argument was jr.-sr. equal talent who plays.

Also, I would disagree somewhat that players always know who should be playing. Some kids put team to friendship and feel their friend should be playing.

I wish I could quote the line in the movie Gettysburg where Sgt. Buster Kilrain speaks about "equal." The facts are nothing is equal. Your scenerio, one which apparently is to call out coaches from the statement about "leaving the building" doesn't exist. There will always be too many criteria to measure those players upon. Leadership, skills, team needs, attitude, work ethic, mental toughness, and the list could go on and on. One will always seperate these two in the mind of the coach. When that happens, then the younger player or older player is inconsequential. The decision is then what is best for the team period. Of course some of those criteria don't stand out to the masses and thus this scenerio you've suggested might be real in the mind of fans and parents. I would suggest this, if it were possible and I'm saying it is not, and should the older player hold the spot, then the younger player has to take the spot from the older.


that's a balk, you suggest that the posters here don't have a clue about what typical players want, I would suggest to you the reverse.

quote:

I bet if you took a poll and ask your majority of kids playing baseball if they would rather win or would rather have their best friend playing beside them having fun and finishing 500 you would be surprised.

You obviously don't realize the competitive nature of the areas that the vast number of posters live in. In our case, I'm betting that our kids would be angry if their best friend played instead of the program attempting to win conference, regionals, sectionals, and state. Of course, perhaps your not accustome to those type programs. We've won a few titles.

Coach,

Your accusation style and remarks simply strengthen what I'm saying.

Pressure to win at all cost. I have seen many a program that do that. But I have also seen the program that the kids are middle of the pack at best and have had a helluva alot more fun than the ones you describe. You are right coach, there are many posters here that live in competitive areas of the country, something I mentioned, yet you left that quote out.

Coach, I will stand behind what I say because I look at the overall picture. Not just the win at all cost mentality. As I stated earlier coach, when I played baseball (I'm now 50) it was go out and have fun first and if that equated to being the best then so be it. Now days it is beaten into you that you have to be the best, it's not about fun, it's about being the best. It is what it is and I understand that, but I do not have to agree to it or conform to it.
One thing I know for sure coach, my son will not feel the pressure to win and will have a helluva a time doing it.

In closing coach, congrats on your "titles" and hopefully you will get many more, that is what this is all about, isn't it.

Sir, then your assertion is that if you have a program that wins, has driven kids etc. then they are not having fun. That simply isn't valid. In none of my posts does it state that my kids are teated with anything less than respect but we do demand excellence. In fact, that is our motto. "Excellence is Expected!" I too am 50 and yet, I remember working for a team goal and the hard work necessary, valuable lessons on life. I've tried to instill that in my players. However, they do know that the best play. Your suggestion would logically then demonstrate that fun is exclussive of winning. I'd bet my players tell you that winning regional and sectional titles, getting a lot of newpaper ink, being ranked in our large metro area all are fun.

Edited to add:

I coach Middle school basketball. I had 13 players this year. Every player played a minimum of 3 minutes in every game. We play 6 minute quarters. I believe that the goal of middle school is to let these players play. Yes, winning is important at the high school. In communities such as the one I live in, it is a valuable commodity in real estates sales, in excitement in the local rec programs, and the attitude of our student body. Baseball is not exempt from that. Finally, and though this might be selfish, if I don't win, I'll get fired. (Now, everyone knows on this site that I resigned after this last spring to watch my daughter play in high school softball. She's a freshman. However, that reality was always there once the bar was set so high with my staff and myself.)

All I can say about that handbook business is,
"He might be a heckuva good football cocah, but he is a lousy handbook writer."

thats-a-balk ...

quote:

remember these are high school KIDS and alot of them are playing baseball for the fun of it and would just as soon have their friend playing beside them and having a good time

I think I understand what you are saying here, but based on our experiences here in So Cal, most of the players we have known aren't putting in all the hours of practice it takes to play the game 'for the fun of it'. And having watched several players over the years who practiced and played hard, but were on a team that was not successful on the field (i.e., a team that lost more than they won), they were not having fun because for them, and for many players, losing is NOT fun. (Son played on a rec basketball team like that and he was miserable ...)

JMHO FWIW

Sir, read it or spin it anyway you like. Winning is fun and I realize that. You are looking at this from a coaching standpoint and I understand that. As a parent, my first priority is to make sure that my son is having fun, period. Now if that fun makes for a better team and that happens to get the titles and press you mention and it adds to the fun so be it.

My suggestion is not that fun is exclussive of winning coach, I would say that having fun is more important than winning.

Coach, not one of my posts suggest or(assert) that you treat your kids with anything less than respect so please do not imply that.

As a coach I know that it is your job to put the best team out there and win, win, win, it's your job. As a parent it is my job to make sure my child is happy, and having fun, not to see his name in a newspaper or win a state title.

I too coach worked for a team goal and worked hard at it. Although we did not win many games I had a helluva alot of fun being with my friends and playing ball. Developed many long lasting memories that I cherished just like I'm sure I would have if we had won a state title and appeared in the press.
The only difference is I never felt winning was the most important thing, and as a parent I want my child to understand that as well. Fun, happiness and health. He can be a winner without all the W's.

In closing coach I will say I respect you for what you do and what you have done. But we will have to agree to disagree, though they can and do go hand and hand at times, my priority is fun first, W's, titles and press second.

Have a good day coach

that's a balk, we agree more than we disagree. You too have a great day.

quote:

Originally posted by FutureBack.Mom:
thats-a-balk ...

quote:

remember these are high school KIDS and alot of them are playing baseball for the fun of it and would just as soon have their friend playing beside them and having a good time

I think I understand what you are saying here, but based on our experiences here in So Cal, most of the players we have known aren't putting in all the hours of practice it takes to play the game 'for the fun of it'. And having watched several players over the years who practiced and played hard, but were on a team that was not successful on the field (i.e., a team that lost more than they won), they were not having fun because for them, and for many players, losing is NOT fun. (Son played on a rec basketball team like that and he was miserable ...)

JMHO FWIW

I understand, and that is where times have changed.
There is so much emphasis put on winning by coaches, parents and others, it makes losing the worst thing in the world. Back in our day, losing sucked but playing with your buddies trumped all and still made it fun. Today the winning mentality takes all the fun away. Then, it was go out have fun and be with your buds. Now, it's go out win and be with your buds, if you lose then all fun was lost. Just my opinion.

Thanks for the feedback FutureBack.Mom, I understand what your saying.

quote:

As a parent, my first priority is to make sure that my son is having fun, period....As a parent it is my job to make sure my child is happy, and having fun, not to see his name in a newspaper or win a state title.

Thats-a-balk, I think I understand where you are coming from and I respect that. I would say that our priorities are a little different.

As a parent, I believe my first priority is not to ensure fun, but to instill in my son a strong work ethic, a willingness to persevere through adversity, and a desire to strive for excellence. These character traits will serve him well when he enters the working world, which is not that far off for an 18-year-old.

As others on this site have stated, winning and having fun do not have to be mutually exclusive. In fact, as FutureBackMom said, for many players losing is not fun. You attributed this to changing times, but I believe that this attitude has been around for decades. It's just that there are "Type A" players who are extremely driven and competitive and "Type B" players who are just out for some fun. Back in Little League days, the Majors were for the Type A's and the Minors were for the Type B's. In the fall season, the league lumped all the players together and it was disastrous. The Type B players booted the ball, threw the ball around, struck out, and didn't seem to have a care in the world, while their Type B parents told jokes in the dugout and in the stands. Meanwhile the Type A players and their parents had steam coming out their ears as they observed all the complacency.

My son is a quiet "Type A" (my husband and I liken him to Tim Duncan with the San Antonio Spurs) who strives for excellence and it really bothers him when fellow teammates act like they don't care. He also is keenly aware of the talent level of fellow teammates; he will come home from practice and tell us about the sophomore on varsity who is really good and he'll also tell us about the teammate who "sucks." (He is also quick to point out his own failures when he has a bad game.)

My son is all for seniors and friends starting, but not if it's at the expense of the team's success. Each coach has different criteria for what he thinks will make for a successful program and I believe it's the parent's and player's job to respect him as the decision-maker.

quote:

As a parent, I believe my first priority is not to ensure fun, but to instill in my son a strong work ethic, a willingness to persevere through adversity, and a desire to strive for excellence. These character traits will serve him well when he enters the working world, which is not that far off for an 18-year-old.

I couldn't agree more!
I was referring to playing a game. And I know "playing" this game will instill some of these attributes we looking for in raising our kids.
At the expense of sounding like a broken record,
first and foremost (in my eyes)it must be fun or nothing learned and nothing gained.

Maybe just a "Type B" parent!

When a team has players who have talent and work hard they seem to always to have success---do they win championships/ Not always--but they are a team and a unit


When a team works together and has success then they have fun--- real fun---don't tell me they are having fun with a losing record---

There are alot more losing records than winning records TRhit, and I bet there are alot of them having fun. Having fun playing the great game. You don't have to win to be a winner, and don't have to win have fun.
Nobody likes to lose, but not everybody is gonna win.
Some never win and continue to play the game, Why? I would venture to guess they are having fun!!

From the "Type B" parent (I kinda like that)

There is fun and then there is fun---winning is better fun especially at the HS level


What is a "Type B" parent?--are we talking blood type?

I would guess that winning record and losing records are about even.

Seriously, although I've only read a few of the posts I haven't seen anything about coaches developing ballplayers and helping them get into college.

Hasn't that been covered in many other threads ?

I do realize I'm in the minority here and actually might be considered a loser. But I keep on because you know why, I'm having "fun" debating my friends!

Now where is that "Type B" parent board, I bet
I could win there.

You know I don't remember ever walking away from a game that my team lost and saying that "I had fun." I've liked some of the excitement that has happened in a loss, but can never say that I enjoyed losing.

In fact, I HATE to lose. I've been on teams that were good (two years we won the MVC in baseball) and I've been on teams that were downright bad (5-20). I cannot stand to lose!

TR,
Sure but aren't winning, developing players and helping them get into college all part of the job? Don't they conflict at times? For example, is it more important to use tournaments for developing players or to win and help cement a ranking.

CADAD

Thye dont conflict---you can win while developing if you are good coach

TR,
I agree, and unless you have incredible talent you won't win unless you develop players. But that means developing all the players who can help the team.

CA DAD


How is certain HS programs win regularly?

TR,
We are agreeing. Developing players and a pipeline into the program. I've seen one of the best in action and my teams have played against his "feeder" team. Also by being a good talent evaluator.

Are those players supposedly be developed through Travel Ball or LL before they start thier HS career? If not, how can they make the HS team at the first place?

IMO, Every freshman should be good enough to play varsity if they have the Size and Skill to face the other varsity teams.

But in reality, I saw too many weak HS teams, they don't have many choices and have to pick up weak players to fill the team. Some of the kids should never be there at the first place. I feel sad for them.

Don't complain when coach sit you out if you are not good enough to play. The coaches don't have the obligation to develop you at HS level. Go find a private instructor if you want play baseball for life.

t-a-b: If you want to have fun, go play Adult Softball.
You can have a bottle of beer while you get a hit and stay at the first base.