Coaches yelling balk

FED rules:
3.1.1 A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not: ...(o) call “Time” or use any command or commit any act for the purpose of causing a balk;"

NCAA 5-15(2) and OBR 4.06(a)(3) both have very similar language.

OBR 4.06
PENALTY: The offender shall be removed from the game and shall leave the playing field, and, if a balk is made, it shall be nullified.

Thanks guys helps a lot.

Coach,

This is part of the problem. Get in your Rule Book.

quote:

Originally posted by catsbackr:
Coach,

This is part of the problem. Get in your Rule Book.

I don't see where this is part of any problem. While it is helpful that I know the rules I don't have to know them by section and whatever. Secondly I have always had a great relationship with umpires even when I knew they were wrong.

In fact I think I am more knowledgeable in rules than the average coach. Also, if we are going to identify parts of the problem let's make sure we get the bad umps (few and far between) in the rule book as well.

quote:

Originally posted by catsbackr:
Coach,

This is part of the problem. Get in your Rule Book.

Why is it a problem that a coach comes to an umpire board to ask a question? Many times reading the section asked about, he will read acompanying sections. This leads to further knowledge.

Icoached for nearly 22 years and I "knew" the rules BUT since I am now umpiring I learned that I didn't know as much as I thought I did. Not saying anything negative, but we all should be reading and re-reading and learning.

The 'tude usually leads to much bigger problems.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
Where in the rulebook does it say a coach (field or dugout) cannot yell balk when a pitcher is in his delivery? I know you cannot do it but not sure where it is.

Thanks

This seems to be perfectly fine to me.........coach2709 knew the rule but wanted to know the section and where to find it...I dont expect any coach to know the sections....knowing there is a rule and knowing it correctly is good enough for me....

I dont consider myself a rule book Guru by any means, but I have all the supporting books and manuals and read them often. I (and MST) am an NFHS rules interpreter for my area and study the rules fairly often in my role as training official....I dont expect my students to know the sections...

I only expect them to know where to look it up...

We umpires on this site have chosen to be a resource for coaches, players and parents and as such I do not mind if they ask for rules direction....NFHS rules are not on the web and many of the coaches here coach non-fed teams...I dont automatically assume they have a NFHS rule book...

as an aside...

POLOGREEN....

welcome back...!!

Does it seem different to "yell balk when a pitcher is in his delivery" and "call “Time” or use any command or commit any act for the purpose of causing a balk;"

If a coach sees a balk and yells "balk" in an attempt to "assist" the umpire that's one thing.

But to yell and scream in the windup trying to force the pitcher to balk is different.

Isn't it?

No, I tell coaches that balk is a word reserved for umpires. You can ask for time and ask why something wasn't a balk but you can't just yell it. If it is and the coach yells balk as or just before the umpire calls it, it looks like he is buying the call. Many times they are wrong anyway and are just trying to rattle the pitcher.
It is no different than a coach calling safe at first. That drives me nuts and I will tell the coach to allow me the chance to call the play. Most of the time they call it as it is happening and no way the umpire is going to call it that fast.

That's for sure, Michael, the coaches and parents most definitely make the call before the umpire!!!!

I've coached with umpires I've been friends with before. I'll tell them that if they need any help with the strike zone, I've got a great view of it from the dugout!

Of course, I'd never say that to an umpire I don't know!

I stand by my previous post telling coaches to get in the Rule book.

Most coaches are teachers. Teachers should be able to read. If that teacher coaches, he/she should READ the rule book of the sport they are coaching.

coach2709 wrote, : "While it is helpful that I know the rules I don't have to know them by section and whatever." HELPFUL? Knowing the rules to your sport is a **** sight more than helpful.

Get in the Rule book.

PIAA Thanks I've been around but haven't been posting. I respect your interpetations and now even MORE.

quote:

Originally posted by catsbackr:
I stand by my previous post telling coaches to get in the Rule book.

Most coaches are teachers. Teachers should be able to read. If that teacher coaches, he/she should READ the rule book of the sport they are coaching.

coach2709 wrote, : "While it is helpful that I know the rules I don't have to know them by section and whatever." HELPFUL? Knowing the rules to your sport is a **** sight more than helpful.

Get in the Rule book.

You can stand by any post you want to but I have a feeling you will be by yourself.

If everyone is supposed to know the rules to your standard then what would be the point in having a message forum like this? What would be the poing in having umpires at games? If both coaches know the rule books by section (as you want them to) then they could make all the calls.

Although this particular rule hasn't changed, many rules in Fed do change year to year. I commend any coach that is trying to improve his understanding of the rules. Whether it is a coach or an umpire, boards like this one are great for sharing knowledge to areas that don't do as well at training.
PIAA and I have said repeatedly that we wish we had places like this to learn when we were coming up through the ranks. If this too much for you to handle, don't post.

Michael,

I do not commend a coach for doing something that should be a requirement if they are coaching a sport and that's knowing the rules.

The original post was a question that has an answer readily available in the rule book. I told him to get in the rule book.

How many time per year do you have some type of ruling that you make that is a BOOK rule that a coach comes out to question? At least a few, I would bet. The coaches don't have to question BOOK rules if they get in the rule book.

And none of this is too much for me to handle and I will post if I see fit. I'm pretty sure I've been working as long or longer than you. I appreciate the advice though. And if you don't like my responses, don't post.

And coach, knowing the rules is only part of the umpire's job. The umpires are there to make judgement calls. It's very doubtful, even if the coaches knew the rules that they could make unbiased judgement calls, and that is the primary reason you have umpires.

Oh, and coach, you've been handed Gatorade, follow your own advice.

MST, PIAAump, et al have been here a long time and giving out great advice, opinions and rulings. I know I am speaking for pretty much everyone here when I say we respect them. We (not just coaches but EVERYONE) need guys like them who take the time to teach the rules of the game. The rule book isn't written in laymens terms and sometimes it needs to be interpreted by people who know it.

For example - you can't get rid of teachers and give students a textbook to learn information because the teacher has to break it down. And obviously I was being sarcastic when I said "get rid of umps" because we do need them to make the judgement calls - just like we need teachers to determine if a student has gained the necessary knowledge.

I get the feeling you are the umpire who can quote scripture and verse of the rulebook but cannot make a simple out / safe judgement call. In my experience the ones who know the rulebook can't take it to the field. Maybe I'm wrong but I guess we will never know.

I have been here a while and PIAA has been here longer but that's not important. What is important is that this board is here to assist umpires, coaches and even players learn the basic rules and more esoteric rulings alike. The most important aspect of this board is it is a friendly, non-flame type board. I'm not saying you can't have a contrary opinion on a ruling, but you can't be ornery for the sake of being ornery. As in a baseball game that will get you ejected.

catsbackr,

Take a piece of advice. There is a very old saying that will serve you well...."There is no such thing as a stupid question, just a rude response".

A good ump doesn't come off pompous on or off the field.

quote:

Originally posted by catsbackr:
Michael,
And none of this is too much for me to handle and I will post if I see fit. I'm pretty sure I've been working as long or longer than you. I appreciate the advice though. And if you don't like my responses, don't post.

I'm glad to know my status now. After 10 years of officiating, that means everyone who has less years than me is not as good or knowledgable, whereas those with more years, I will bow down to....

I have been reading this board for about 5 years now. Until now, while recovering from knee surgery, I haven't had the time to read or post.

I understand the purpose for this board as you have stated, Michael. "...to assist umpires, coaches and even players learn the basic rules...". I could not agree more.

But, ask yourself this question, is there any and I mean any, better advice to a coach regarding rules than to tell him to get in the rule book?

I apologize for being ornery if that's the way I came off. I will go back to work in a week and will leave you to your FRIENDLY board.

However, it is my experience that if you ask a stupid question, you get the answer that you get. Oh, and I do not eject a coach for being ornery, my skins a whole lot thicker than that.

What's 2+2? It's in the book.

What's the capitol of Mexico? It's in the book.

What were the main causes of the Great Depression? It's in the book.

Yeah those are pretty dumb questions. Pretty good teaching strategy too.

I'm not saying coaches shouldn't be in the rulebook. However, I will gladly give a coach an answer to a question. Hopefully it will lead them into reading it more.
What I won't do is tell a coach that I won't answer and to just look it up. On a board I will give them an answer and where to read about it. On the field I will give a brief explanation and that's it. If youy quote rules or cite sections it makes you seem like a smart aleck.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
Where in the rulebook does it say a coach (field or dugout) cannot yell balk when a pitcher is in his delivery? I know you cannot do it but not sure where it is.

Thanks

No rule code says that.

All rule codes say something to the effect of no one may call Time or use any command or commit any act for the purpose of causing a balk.

In my experience, the coach who is yelling " GO GO GO" to his R3 just as F1 is beginning his delivery has more intent to cause a balk than the coach who yells balk when he things the umpires are missing a balk.

Is yelling balk obnoxious? You bet, and like Michael, I will address the situation. But it is not, in and of itself, a violation of the rule prohibiting the offense from causing a balk.

Judgment must be applied.

i have nothing but admiration for coaches,especially new ones. many are new to the sport they are coaching and may be voluntary. they have to start somewhere as do new umpires. it's the coaches that know-it all that usually are the problem. at times ,if someone does not step forward, there is no team. i have been around baseball as a player, coach and umpire for a long time. i'm still learning. this forum is an asset.it doesn't hurt to watch what you say and to be courteous.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

In my experience, the coach who is yelling " GO GO GO" to his R3 just as F1 is beginning his delivery has more intent to cause a balk than the coach who yells balk when he things the umpires are missing a balk.

Is yelling balk obnoxious? You bet, and like Michael, I will address the situation. But it is not, in and of itself, a violation of the rule prohibiting the offense from causing a balk.

Judgment must be applied.

Well put.

In the 2-umpire system, there are 15-18 men on the field at any given point in a baseball game. 86-88% of them are known cheaters.

dash,

Are you serious? or trolling?

The people who post here are, for the most part, parents of baseball players.

Did you really mean to accuse every one of those players (and their coaches) of being a known cheater at baseball?

That kind of statement may be acceptable (even though the statement is quite incorrect) on some umpire boards, where an "us versus the rats" mentality seems to prevail, but it surely isn't acceptable here.

Let me give you some examples. How about a fielder who dives to tag a sliding runner, misses him by half an inch, and then tries to sell a tag to the umpire? He's trying to cheat. Or a 1st base coach who gives the safe sign when the ball just beat his runner by half a step, and he knows it. Same thing. How many times do you see a catcher try to fool the umpire on a pitch out of the zone? Cheaters - all of them.

I was being more tongue-in-cheek than anything. Actually, the attempts at cheating can be very amusing. It's all part of a great game. Sorry if you were offended.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
dash,

Are you serious? or trolling?

The people who post here are, for the most part, parents of baseball players.

Did you really mean to accuse every one of those players (and their coaches) of being a known cheater at baseball?

That kind of statement may be acceptable (even though the statement is quite incorrect) on some umpire boards, where an "us versus the rats" mentality seems to prevail, but it surely isn't acceptable here.

Steal of third...R3 gloves the throw, swipes and misses. He then:

A. Says "****, I missed him."
B. Shows the ball to the ump and pretends he made the tag.

3-2 count. Next pitch is two inches outside. F2 then:

A. Ssys "Close" and throws the ball back to F1.
B. Pulls the glove over the plate to try to get a strike call.

Close play at second but coach sees the tag. He then:

A. Congratulates the umpire on his call
B. Comes out and argues call.

Politely put, coaches and players are lobbyists who do not allow facts to interfere with their actions and words.

But then again if they didn't lie or cheat, they wouldn't need umpires.

Look at it this way: In order for an act to be considered cheating, it needs to be contrary to some rule, either written or implied. Doctoring a bat, cutting the ball, advancing a base during a time out-- that's cheating. But there's no rule against a catcher pulling pitches.

If an umpire feels that a participant is cheating, the umpire needs to correct it, because enforcing rules is part of the job.

quote:

But then again if they didn't lie or cheat, they wouldn't need umpires.

Well, no. One reason baseball needs umpires is that most participants (actually, humans generally) are incapable of forming judgments unaffected by bias. Bias in perception is what causes all the children in Lake Wobegone to be above average. Similarly, on a close play, the offense and defense tend to genuinely see the play differently. (Bias is, in my opinion, the main cause of post-play "lobbying": the lobbyist actually perceived the play differently than the umpire.)

The need for a plate umpire is even stronger. MLB umpires, the best in the country who have the benefit of objective feedback on their strike zone from Questec, vary in the size, shape, and location of the strike zone. If there weren't a plate umpire, then whose strike zone would the participants use, and how could it stay consistent from half inning to half inning? Let's say the rules call for each catcher to call the pitches, and further assume that both catchers are unbiased or equally biased. The pitchers and hitters still wouldn't get the same strike zone.

There is nothing in the rules against TRYING to cheat, and all players and coaches do it.

R1 stealing and the batter swings at a pitch with no intent to hit it, but every intent to put the bat in front of F2's eyes. Then his swing carries him over the plate in front of F2 (although this never happens with no one stealing), but he ducks down to give F2 some room to throw. Is he trying to cheat? **** skippy he is. He's trying to interfere with F2 and get away with it. Nothing in the rules against that.

And that coach giving the safe sign knows full well his runner is out, and his actions have nothing to do with bias. He's got the best view in the house on that play. He's trying to get the umpire to make a mistake to unfairly benefit his team.

I reiterate: Cheaters! All of them!

But it's not such a bad thing. And I'm sure the great majority of them only cheat in baseball games.

3FG: I know you don't like the "us vs. [them]" mentality, but that's the way it is. We have very different objectives. The umpires want to get every call right, and they don't care who wins the game. The teams want to win the game, and they will gladly accept the results of a bad call if it helps them achieve victory.

So I have a question about the interpretation of the rule.

What if the other team is just generally yelling and being disruptive during the pitcher's windup and he balks? Would this rule apply, or only when the team is yelling "BALK"? Or is it a judgment call?

quote:

Originally posted by Ranger12:
So I have a question about the interpretation of the rule.

What if the other team is just generally yelling and being disruptive during the pitcher's windup and he balks? Would this rule apply, or only when the team is yelling "BALK"? Or is it a judgment call?

It's a judgment call. One reason we get paid the big bucks.

I have seen (and heard) an entire team's
(non-playing) bench get tossed for
obeying the head coach and yelling 'balk' in
unison at the opposing pitcher (with the intent
of creating one).

What I have not seen very much, if at all,
is the field umpire tossing the 1b Coach for yelling balk. What I have seen is the 1b Coach yelling balk, and then the field umpire calling the
balk.....

But then again, asking an umpire a baseball rules question is like........ irking off, once started,
can't stop. And you won't find that in the rule book!

Right before getting tossed (I had to get to a wedding and the DH was taking way too long), other
than saying the obvious... MF this MF that....
the best of the best question I asked was
....

<B>I have seen (and heard) an entire team's
(non-playing) bench get tossed for
obeying the head coach and yelling 'balk' in
unison at the opposing pitcher (with the intent
of creating one). </B>



Unless there is more to the story, I can't imagine tossing a dugout for that. It is certainly something to shut down but I see an ejection for even one, less alone all in the dugout.

What I have not seen very much, if at all,
is the field umpire tossing the 1b Coach for yelling balk. What I have seen is the 1b Coach yelling balk, and then the field umpire calling the
balk.....

Here again unless there is a whole lot more going on this isn't a tossable offense. I am going to let him know that he isn't going to be helping me. An umpire has to see the whole move to see if it is a balk or not. A coach will yell as soon as he thinks he sees a balk. Sometimes he will yell to get in a pitcher's head. So it is possible for a coach to yell balk and then the umpire calls the balk. It looks like the coach is buying a call when it actually was a balk. This is no different than a coach yelling or showing safe on a close call at first. I will quickly explain that I don't need or want his help and if he can't control himself he doesn't need to be the coach.

But then again, asking an umpire a baseball rules question is like........ irking off, once started,
can't stop. And you won't find that in the rule book! Right before getting tossed (I had to get to a wedding and the DH was taking way too long), other
than saying the obvious... MF this MF that....
the best of the best question I asked was
....

??????? I have no idea what this has to do with the price of eggs!

MT, PIAA and Dash THANKS FOR ALL YOU DO!!!!

I've been around this great game for a good number of years, and have found that, like in any other aspect of life, people skills can take you a long way. Dash_riprock said "the 'tude usually leads to much bigger problems". I can certainly agree with that, only problem is that catsbackr and Dash seem to be the two with the attitudes. Get over it, guys.

You're both displaying the kind of attitude that nobody appreciates, and if you take it to the field, you are correct when you say that "the 'tude usually leads to bigger problems". You probably don't want to admit it, but you'll be the one causing the problems. 2709, PIAA and MST are all well respected people around here who've provided ample help to others for years, you can learn a lot about dealing with other people by reading what they write, and seeing how they treat others. Experience does not equal excellence, and excellence is far more important than experience.