Coaching attitude

At the college level I would tend to agree more.........but from a HS coach, I would tend to disagree.......

I am not violently disagreeing (although recently I do see more very poor fundamental skills in HS baseball....)

But it smacks a bit too much of a "me keeping my job" aspect.........I do not coach, so I will not judge..........but from a parents viewpoint (albeit changed from 4 years of NCAA baseball experiences)...it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to hear it put that way......

I guess I'm of two schools of thought here. First, I'd need to know what the coach ment by 'fundamentals'. By the time a player reachs high school level play he/she should know the 'fundamentals'. Son spent some time on a JV team that had a player that has never played baseball (Grandparents were raising the boy) and to be honest with you, he was a danger to himself and the other players.

That being said, I do not like the Coaches statement. Sounds to me like the 'Coach' did not want to 'Coach'.

Well that is an interesting point, with all the discussions that we have had about High School = Rec ball and Travel in lieu of HS, my initial thought is different than my current though.

I would say most situations, up until you get to high school, the players most likely have been able to find somewhere to play ball, be it the local Little League, Pony, good travel team, bad travel team, etc. When you get into high school, the coaches are given a set of players, good or bad, his job is to make the most of what he has and to get them to work as a team and try to win games. His primary job is not to teach fundamentals (how to throw, catch, or hit the ball). He in getting his team to win, he will choose the best 15-20 players he has and develop, I would expect most focus on execution and the correct play more so than fundamentals. I would think if the coach really has a problem with players not knowing how to do the fundamentals, he will have to resort to teaching them those aspects of the game but not at a true fundamental level.

Bottom line; it would be based on the skill set of the players if he had a top high school team over flowing with talent he could have a different attitude than one which is having a hard time fielding a team.

Coaches at the next corresponding level are supposed to teach the fundamentals of that level of play.

It is usually accepted that the next level of play would be more advanced and nuanced than the previous level of play.

Even in professional sports, new players have to learn the system that that team employs.

If a player lacks the basic skills and talent to participate that would be another situation entirely. If the coach carries this type of player, they also assume responsibility to raise that player's level of play to meet competition levels established to be on that team.

Assuming this is varsity level, in general, I'd agree with the coach. The players should know the fundamentals. The purpose of practice is to reinforce the fundamentals so that everything is second nature and everyody knows their assignments.

Now if a player has no clue what the fundamentals are, the coach should either cut them or send them down to JV and learn them.

You probably have to know this coach a bit to figure out what he means. Maybe he's a good teacher of the game but is can't be bothered working with players who have a lot of ability but just weren't tauught the fundamentals or some aspect of the sport they're playing where they're struggling. He could just simply be a coach that can't be bothered, may be in the game too long, is doing it for the extra dough and needs to give it up and turn it over to a younger coach eager and willing to teach the game. Could be a lot of things. It depends.

Over the years, in other forums like this, the first thing one would hear when a post like that is made, is the cry that some parent was being a PITA, and trying to stir up trouble for the coach. Personally, if I didn’t particularly care for something one of my children’s coaches said, even if I wasn’t on exactly the best terms with that coach, I’d at least give him/her the respect of sitting down and discussing exactly what was meant.

I felt obligated to do that on a few occasions, and on almost all of them, it turned out that there was some kind of an innocent misunderstanding. I wonder what would happen if the same respect was given to this coach.

It is one thing to teach fundamentals and another to make sure the player keeps on track. That is why they have various coaches for specifice roles. Doesn't matter what level you are at.
What si a kid doing on a HS team if he doesn't know basic fundamentals. If the coach needs a body then he had better get that player up to speed.

You have to define what he meant by fundamentals. I think good coaches are always teaching fundementals, whether they realise it or not. All players have flaws in their fundementals (especially at high school) or better said, there are many areas to improve your game. Improving your game and correcting flaws is part of fundemental development. If a coach cannot or will not aid in the improvement of his players (at any level) than he absolutely should not be coaching.
Baseball is like many sports, even if your fundamentals are good, there are times when a part of your fundementals can break down. How many times have you coaches out there seen a kid pick up a bad habit out of nowhere and you corrected it. It could be a pitcher dropping his elbow, a catcher gaining too much ground, or a hitter all the sudden is stepping under the ball. I could go on and on.
My point is...These are fundementals and it is part of coaching.
Even in the MLB, huge coaching staffs dedicated to teaching the skills of baseball. Fundementals! it never ends at any age or level.
When I coach and see a kid with a problem in his fundementals I address it. I CAN'T HELP IT ,I have to do it because that is the coach in me.

Well stated Tripldad. BB is a constant game of development.

I just thought of this. Last week the varsity Coach saw my 15yr old hit at a tryout for next summers team. The kid has been playing competitive ball since he was 5. The varsity coach walked over to me after seeeing him and said "The 1st thing I'm going to do with him is shorten him up"

What if he would have said " I don't know if he should tryout for HS ball cuz, ya know, I don't teach em dam fundomentaaals. LOL

People who don't teach fundamentals probably don't know fundamentals. A quality coach see something and he is driven to correct the problem. Unfortunately great coaching is hard to find.

Just curious RJM how long has he been in the job and how successful have his teams been?

I think this depends on what this coaches idea of fundamentals is. Does he mean not being a monkey in the dugout, not having mom run into the dugout and feed him, how to make contact with the bat and ball, catch the ball in the glove, get from base to base in the right order, basic idea of scoring and throwing farther than he can spit? If yes to the above I agree completely. Other boys on the team have spent to much time and effort to wait for a kid to catch up that much.

On the other hand if he means getting deeper into the sport more detailed play, pulling the ball, picking off the runner, surviving a run down etc... then no that is part of what I expect from a HS coach. Not to mention the proper weight training for each sport because HS boys are at the age that weight training should start, as well as off field training.

Fundamentals are the basic skills like feet placement,fielding poistions, leading off hitting and throwing. It is about balace and weight transfer and all the basic things that form thje foundation on which you base your development of BB skills.

First of all I have no idea what the coach actually meant by this statement. Could it be that he was talking about basic baseball fundementals? Was he talking to upperclassman or younger kids? I dont know.

IMO its your job as a coach to teach. Teach the game of baseball. This includes the fundementals of throwing hitting fielding and catching. It also includes baserunning , cut plays , bunt - bunt defense etc etc etc.

I learned very early coaching at the high school level to never assume anything when it comes to how much a kid knows or does not know. When you first get that kid you assume nothing. You teach , teach , teach and teach some more. If they are advanced you learn that pretty early. But you still teach it. Why? Its your job and you want to know that you have taught it.

Players are a direct reflection of the coach. If they do not know when to tag its your fault. If they dont know how to run the bases its your fault. Its not the previous coaches fault for not teaching them. Its your fault. If they can hit do you say "Well I have to give credit to the kids travel coach." If they can't hit do you say "Well the travel coaches did a poor job with him."

The fact is you have to take responsibility for your players. And they have to take responsibility for putting in the hard work and dedication that it will take for them to become the best they can be.

I have never believed that we were good because of me. I have always felt when we were not as good as we should be it was my fault. Any coach that does not take responsibility for his kids knowing the game is a clown.

Do your job. And then you dont have to worry about what someone else did or didnt do.

It is even more obvious, everyone has their definition of “Fundamentals” and from the original post we don't know what the coach was thinking.

Since I was away for a few days I give one response rather than address each question with it's own post.

I was not taken back or offended by the comment. It did surprise me. Players never stop learning, especially when they move up a level, whether it's from JV to varsity or on to college or pro sports.

The coach has been the varsity coach for as long as I can remember. My son attended his camps when he was eight. The program is very successful. Competing for the conference title every year is an expectation. Not making districts is considered a disasterous season.

There are parents who claim his success is being the recipient of a constant inflow of reasonably developed talent. There are claims his coaching blew a state championship opportunity one year when he had too much talent to fail.

He's a former professional in his sport. He also doesn't talk to college coaches. He claims that's also the responsibility of the travel coaches.

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The coach has been the varsity coach for as long as I can remember. My son attended his camps when he was eight. The program is very successful. Competing for the conference title every year is an expectation. Not making districts is considered a disasterous season.

Based on this my opinion is he believes it's not his job to teach the most basic skills of the game. Kids who don't have this probably get cut under him.

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There are parents who claim his success is being the recipient of a constant inflow of reasonably developed talent.

I would PAY to be able to coach a team like this. I think all coaches would love to have this situation. I will never apologize for coaching a team that is loaded with talent that succeeds because I know I will somehow made them a little better.

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There are claims his coaching blew a state championship opportunity one year when he had too much talent to fail.

Stuff like this happens because the stars and moons just don't align for you. A good coach will shoulder that blame and a bad coach will deflect the blame. I know I have had teams that had a lot of talent at the end of the season left with a bad taste in my mouth. Regardless of what happened it was my fault. I could have had a team full of jerks who had the worst attitudes and caused all kinds of problems - still my fault because I selected them for the team. Once they were on the team it was job to change that attitude.

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He also doesn't talk to college coaches. He claims that's also the responsibility of the travel coaches.

I don't necessarily like this belief but I sort of see where he is coming from. I made calls for my players and if I beocme a head coach again I will do it again but I really have very little influence with college coaches. If they call me I am going to give my honest opinion of them because I have to maintain my integrity.

Overall a coach needs to teach the game regardless of the level of ball or level of talent. If you always go into a season and assume the players don't know enough and then you teach what they need you will probably do well. Once you are able to assess where they are then you can alter how much and what you teach them. I am coaching football at my new school and I had no idea of their talent level. I started out teaching them how to get into a stance. Honestly a varsity HS football player should already know to get into a stance. I still have a few guys I am trying to teach the correct stance. I will keep going until they have it or they graduate.

Just teach the game regardless of the sport or level.

Ed Farmer, the White Sox radio announcer and former hardass MLB pitcher, just recently talked with Mike Trembley, Orioles manager, about a catcher they had. Farmer mentioned to Trembley that the catcher had a bad habit of reaching his glove out for pitches off the plate instead of shifting his weight to block the pitch and that it was going to cost his team a lot of ball games. Trembley's response was, "there are a lot of fundamental things we need to work on with our young guys."

A friend who was in Indy Colts camp the last two years as a WR (cut both years), told me that Peyton Manning sits in on every meeting. D Line, Linebackers, RB's, etc, doesn't matter. He wants to hear what the coaches are teaching so he can become a better player.

Teaching and learning should never stop...

RJM,

Public or private school? If private, it might be a very competitive team; his program. If public, I could see some parent worrying about you-name-it and filing a lawsuit.

Right on Coach May and CPLZ. You begin teaching at the high school level and you never stop teaching. I have witnessed too many travel team coaches that only meet their players once or twice between tournaments. They pool together talent and generally expect the players to know how to play the game.
I never expect a kid to know how to play the game. The kid will show me soon enough if hes capable.
There are basic fundamentals like catch and throw. Most kid do it before high school but many don't do it correctly. It would be criminal to send them out on the field doing things incorrectly when you can teach them better.
Most players are begging for your knowledge and are so eager to learn new and different parts of the game. Teach, teach and never stop teaching.
I have heard many post game speaches by coaches chastising players for poor fundamentals, when the coaches should be looking at themselves and the ways they could be correcting those flaws.

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I heard the statement second hand so I verified it by asking another parent.

Says a lot.

Just because a player comes to you and he is talented does not mean he has a clue about actually playing the game. When you start assuming that players know something you end up getting bit and it cost your team and the player.

A coach should teach the game everyday. A coach should constantly be learning himself. Players thirst for knowledge and coaches should not only thirst to teach but to learn more as well.

I have seen programs that bring in very good talent every year and they never win. The players are no better after four years. Of course they are bigger and stronger from being four years older. But they are not where they should or could have been. The measure of a good program is one where below average players leave good players. Average players leave very good players. Very good players leave outstanding players.

Why do some programs win year after year regardless of how many very good players they lose each year? And some are constantly up and down based on the talent that is handed to them? And why do some programs regardless of how much talent they inherit never get over the hump?

The answer is obvious. Some guys sit back and wait for some talent to be competitive. And some guys coach.

Something I believe very strongly.

In order for a HS baseball coach to have a successful program year in and year out the coach
MUST earn the respect of his players. One way to do this is to teach the players things they do not know AND help them get BETTER. There is more to earning player respect, but knowing the game and teaching it is an essential part.

The first thing the Wizard of Westwood, John Wooden, would teach his UCLA freshman at their first practice?

How to lace up and tie their shoes properly.

And he was recruiting the most talented players in the country.

Take nothing for granted.

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Originally posted by infidel_08:
RJM,

Public or private school? If private, it might be a very competitive team; his program. If public, I could see some parent worrying about you-name-it and filing a lawsuit.

Public. I restrained from naming the sport since this is more of a philosophical issue than a sport specific issue. It's the s****r coach. We live in a very s****r talent rich area. The talent just streams into the high school program year after year.

Getting back to coaching, a friend's son was all-state three years in high school. When he got to an SEC program the quote from the coach on his profile page said, "With a redshirt year and some improvement on fundamentals I believe he can become a quality catcher." And this kid played for a very good high school coach. As I mentioned before, when moving up levels of competition the quantification of solid fundamentals changes.

Coach May lines in your last post really hit home.
"A coach should teach the game everyday. A coach should constantly be learning himself. Players thirst for knowledge and coaches should not only thirst to teach but to learn more as well.
I have seen programs that bring in very good talent every year and they never win. The players are no better after four years".

You just hit on the head why my son is at a new school. I could not put my finger on it but my gut told me something was wrong and you nailed it for me. Thank You.
A side note, he played summer ball with his new coach and has been working out with them since the end of the summer season. Yesterday, one of the coaches came to him, spoke to him for an hour after the workout about the great effort he puts in to improve and in not so many words if he could take a lead on the team. He couldn't wait to tell me about it. Made his mom swear she wouldn't tell me first. An honor to a kid who if he had stayed where he was would have turned out the way you mentioned. Playing 4 years and not getting better.
Sometimes a change of scenery is a good thing.

I will hit the nail on the head with this one. It is a fact that in some programs there are baseball players that want more and need more than the high school coach is willing to give and or capable of giving.

Baseball is very important to some kids. They eat breathe and sleep it. They love the game and they want to be the best they can be. They want to learn and they want to be challenged. When these type of kids are in a situation where the high school coach does not share the same desires as a coach it simply is baseball hel.

I do not blame anyone for leaving in situations like this. No more than I would blame a kid who has a math teacher that plays dvd's to his class all day and doesnt teach his students , finding another class to attend.

Coach, Do they have Math teachers like that? SOn has been looking for one of those for years! Seriously, he has had pounded in his head for years...when you stop learning, you might as well stop playing. He probably taught his high school coach a thing or too, but not for his lack of trying. He was a young hard working guy who as a Coach, was very willing to learn anyway possible.