College graduation rates--STUNNING!

My observation is that baseball is hit particularly hard by the method the NCAA uses to establish its "graduation rate." First, if a player doesn't graduate in 6 years from the date he enrolls as a freshman, that counts against the grad rate. So any player drafted after junior OR senior year (assuming he may still have some credits left to actually graduate)will probably be counted as "not graduated." In addition, the NCAA does not take into account transfers. If a player transfers away from the school, even if he graduates from another school, he is considered "not graduated." At the same time, if a player transfers INTO a school (from a JUCO or elsewhere) and graduates, he isn't counted as part of the graduation rate because he didn't start as a freshman. It's crazy.

I had heard, however, that the formula was being changed to reflect the inequities mentioned above. Anybody have any information about that?

I understand there may be some "vagaries" in how this gets calculated. But Stanford graduates 79% and they have as many students/players drafted as most any school. My son is playing with two who had not completed school by the time of the draft and both finished the next semester(Fall).
The main thrust of my point is that rates of graduation between 15 and 30% have more involved than the draft. Where there are differences of 40-50% in the graduation rate of baseball players compared with the student body as a whole, using the same criteria, that, to me, is stunning.

There is more to the low rate than just the draft. The draft might lower the rate 5-10%. A TV talking head, Tony Kornheiser I think commenting on the BCS said the biggest crime in college athletics is the college baseball schedule and its affect on class attendance.

The fact the kids load up Thurday or Friday and get back Sunday night or Monday morning 12-14 weeks in a row doesn't exactly pump up that GPA. They can and do study on the bus/plane/train. That said, the kids that want to graduate certainly have that opportunity. imo, I think graduation is a personal choice in most, but certainly not all cases. Some kids, playing baseball or not are without the ability to meet the requirements to graduate.

Without baseball alot of kids would not likely take a college course at all, Stanford players and many others excluded. Are those guys better off than if they never went? Probably they are.

In the article posted by BA about transfers, it states that this graduation rate will be effected. Since it takes into account how many players enter as freshman and go on to graduate in 4,5 or 6 years. A transfer works against all these factors.

My understanding is that if programs lose more to the draft it doesn't harm the APR? As long as transfers are kept to a minimum (which some schools do) they are ok?

What we found interesting is that most of the schools who we spoke to were quite adament about players returning and completeing their degree after the draft. Some schools actually provide funds through endowments for this purpose.
I don't think you can blame scheduling. What is important to find out during the recruiting stages is asking about scheduling and available resources. As someone said once, how many parents spend as much time researching this? I bet not too many.
My sons spring schedule runs heavy on mondays (NCAA day off)and light on thurs am, no class or one class on friday. This is an advantage to a player who attends a D1 school, having athletic advisors who work closely with the basebll program. It is also his responsibility to find out in advance what needs to be done for a missed class and the instructor has to know why he is not in class. There are some players who tend to overlook this.

If wondering why coaches choose certain players over others, they need to make sure their investments will show the maturity needed to be involved in any baseball program. When deciding the pros and cons over larger schools vs smaller, compare what resources your son has available. For a freshman, the most challenging year, I would much rather see mine play less but have available academic advisor, required study hall, tutors, than play more. After all, if it was all about playing, he would have gone pro.
I think that most parents whose son's have struggled through freshman first semester will understand.

Also, there are some coaches who really are not interested in what is done outside of their field. If you don't make the GPA, there will be someone else to replace you. I like the fact that a coach gets reports every 4 weeks on a players academic progress. I can tell you where my son plays, you don't go to class, study hall, after warnings you are gone, no matter what your GPA might be or how good you are. Those are the rules. One other thing to consider, a factor in choosing where he attended was not only based on the program, but the population of the school. He has some classes where they may be 25-30 per class, a bit more individualized. He preferred that to large lecture halls of 300. I am not saying this is a bad thing, but that these should be considerations for the total success of your son, on the field and off.

quote:

What we found interesting is that most of the schools who we spoke to were quite adament about players returning and completeing their degree after the draft.Some schools actually provide funds through endowments for this purpose.

I was surprised to learn an SEC school pays 100% scholarships for athletes AFTER their players leave school to turn pro prior to completion of eligibility. They are probably not alone.

They are not alone. And this is not only for baseball players.

Many schools raise millions of dollars for this purpose , to make sure that ALL of their athletes earn degrees. Soemthing to inquire about at every school that recruits your son/daughter.

ifdad, you didn't provide a link to the info, but I'd go out on a limb & guess there is a relationship between low grad rates & the schools that bring in 25 in the fall, with 15+ gone mid yr


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Bee, the link is a subscription site. Some might be able to access the link.
Pretty surprising information, to me at least.

http://stanford.scout.com/2/355659.html

What's interesting to me is that at USF last year the baseball team combined GPA was
3.1+...highest of all athletic teams. Wonder how this compares nation wide? It tells me that even though the grad. rate may be lower than the other sports the baseball
players are LEARNING more in the classes they are taking.

Most college baseball coaches do not expect their best players to graduate on time and
in fact recruit freshmen based on the top juniors to be drafted and signed by MLB.

Let's compare the graduation rates And the GPA's and take EVERYTHING into account.

thanks ifdad, I got it
not really sure how to interpret the numbers tho, or that it should be even labeled a "graduation rate" as it seems to treat transfers and draftees with a diploma in hand like they were drop-out homeless people (no offense to the homeless)

I realize that top 5 rounders don't impact graduation rates significantly, but it is very difficult for them to complete degrees within the 5-6 year time frame after they begin pro careers.

While players drafted in later rounds can return to school in the fall, top prospects are expected to attend Instructional League or Arizona Fall League in October/November, conditioning camps in December/January, and Fan Fest appearances in January/February. Most, if not all, minor leaguers hope for these MLB opportunities and would choose them over degree completion in a heart beat.

Was in a hurry and didn't read all threads but, I believe the rates are taken on 4 years not did or did not graduate.

Baseball is always, at the D-1 level lower than most sports. One reason travel more than other sports -- miss class!

The graduation rate and the method as to how it is attained is faulty---juniors who leave in the draft and then return to complete the degree do not count as a positive---JUCO and transfer players who enter the program and graduate do not count in the formula-- actually a transfer strudent hurts the rating for both the school he left and the one he transfers to as he is not positive for either school

In an effort to increase graduation rates, many universities are paying for the 5th year of college, after the player has used up his four years of eligibility. We encountered this guarantee from 3 schools who offered my son scholarships. They are really trying hard to increase their graduation rates.
One coach said he has players who are playing baseball four years on "books only" who go to full tuition paid during their fifth year when baseball is over. He said they think they've died and gone to heaven, no financial worries and more time for school because baseball has ended.
Since my son has chosen to study engineering, I'm glad to hear that the college will pay for him to complete his degree. Its hard to get it done in four years while you're playing baseball.

quote:

was surprised to learn an SEC school pays 100% scholarships for athletes AFTER their players leave school to turn pro prior to completion of eligibility. They are probably not alone.

Dad04, Do you have a link to that info?
Thanks,
Fungo

With baseball committment being truly year 'round, practice most every day (other than game days) and 40 games in D-3 to 50+ in
D-1, plus travel and meetings, etc. etc. time limits on the classes you can take and when you can take 'em, it is tough. I think baseball players have it the toughest of any college sport.

Graduation rates is one of the reasons that has been given for the change in season/practice start dates beginning next year.

quote:

With baseball committment being truly year 'round, practice most every day (other than game days) and 40 games in D-3 to 50+ in
D-1, plus travel and meetings, etc. etc. time limits on the classes you can take and when you can take 'em, it is tough. I think baseball players have it the toughest of any college sport.

I have a college baseball player and a basketball player and the basketball player's schedule and the demands on her are every bit as difficult as my sons, maybe even more so since the game time/travel time keeps them off campus much later due to evening games vs. 4:00 baseball times.

Female athletes have their own set of issues...
and the hoop player's bodies really take a beating with the unforgiving playing surfaces and the pounding, pounding of all the running they do.

I'm sure if you asked a hockey parent or football parent you may get a similar response.

quote:

and the hoop player's bodies really take a beating . . . I'm sure if you asked a hockey parent or football parent you may get a similar response.

agree Chill


aaah, but if I had it to do all over again - GOLF

workout
mon - putting green, 2 cheesburgers & fries
wed - driving range, pizza 2 protien shakes
thurs - short irons, a few cold ones

COMPETITION - a tough 18, manicure, jacuzzi, subway, a sweet tea


Fungo, re: finishing school - all are different
BUT,
schools have $$$
no more NCAA COMPLIANCE issues
at some, a "former" student athlete CAN be placed 1rst in line to recieve funds to finish
funds not tied to 11.7, nor available to all other students
there could be a grant for ALL former RHP/C last name begining with B


.

...doing two things at one time is not easy.

quote:

doing two things at one time is not easy

obviously, you've never seen me spill coffee in my keyboard while typing



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If you go to the NCAA site it list all schools in all Divisions. It also address transfers in the factor.

No matter how you want to coat it, the graduation rate for a student athlete is lower than a normal college student. Normal graduation rate for college is 4/5 years. That is what they are compairing it too.

If the graduation rate of a team is 55%, you can't say 45% of the player were drafted. And if they are drafted and 8 years later they graduate, then that is not relavant, because ALL graduation rates are compared to the 4/5 year factor.

If Joe student takes 6 years to graduate, then he is not include in the schools graduation rate. So trying to sugar coat the graduation rate of a student athlete is not a equatable comparision.

The bottom line is half the student athlete do not graduate in the 4/5 year factor. It does't mean they do not graduate, it means they do not graduate in the statstical data that is being compared.