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College Roster Size

buckeyefanbuckeyefan10+ posts
I'd like to start a discussion regarding the size of college team rosters. I've not done a lot of research on this but it seems that most D1 programs (especially the top tier programs) have at least 35 players on their roster. My question is why? My only answer to why they carry so many is because they can. I've seen at least several rosters that carry 18-22 pitchers. Major league teams carry 25 players and play 162 games. I realize that they can move players up as injuries occur so this is clearly an advantage. On the other hand I see JUCOs that rarely carry more than 25 and most carry less. These JUCOs play a similar number of games (in comparison to D1 programs) and they seem to manage quite well.

So what's my point? I believe carrying more than 25 players is a clear detriment to player development and does not require the coaching staff to properly develop all of their players. For example, one major SEC team has 22 pitchers on their roster and only 11 pitchers have thrown more than 5 total innings (in 26 games played). That leaves 11 pitchers who either have not pitched or have thrown a few mop-up innings in blow out games. I know a few of these 11 may be injured but why carry 22 pitchers. If I have 22 pitchers can one pitching coach give adequate time (for instruction, film review or coaching in general)? If I'm the coach, what's my motivation to give adequate time to pitchers that I have ranked below the 15th pitcher slot? If I actually pitch my 17th ranked pitcher and he does not perform do I need to work to get him better or just move on to number 18 to see if "he can do the job"? I know some will say "well the player chose to go there so he has to live with his decision". Yes, that's true, he chose to attend that University. Unfortunately, many times he chose the school because he was misinformed about his future role on the team, or because he heard what he wanted to hear. I also believe that many times a coach knows that this recruited player will be his 15-22nd ranked pitcher. By the way, I don't have an axe to grind. My son does not play for one of these D1 programs but I am well acquainted with many who do.

What's my solution? I'm not much on regulation but why not have the NCAA regulate roster size to 25? I believe there are many benefits to doing this! One, if your on the team you travel (no leaving players behind). Two, those players being recruited that the coaches know will see limited or no playing time will wind up on other teams where they can contribute and be properly developed. Three, the coaching staff will be held accountable for developing the players they have. In other words, if a pitcher has a rough outing they will have to coach him to improve. I'm sure there are other advantages to limiting roster size but this post is probably too long already.

What does everyone think?
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TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Buckeye,
Yes, roster sizes are large in the big programs. I used to agree with some things that you have said, but no more.
Sometimes there seems to be enough pitchers, other times not enough. You go through a series using up a lot of pitchers, if you are short, someone hurt, you are in trouble. If you have 20 pitchers on your roster, 5 not ready for the big games and you just used 5 in a game and now you have 4 more games that week, what do you do?
For away games, you can only bring the allowed amount to dress in uniform. Some of the players will not dress out. Sometimes if a player has to stay behind, it is not such a bad thing, my son stayed behind the other day and was glad for some extra time to catch up on work. Five games a week, for the end of season, some actually look forward to some time off. The other night CU only brought a handful of pitchers to UGA, man that didn't work out so well, not a great pitching night, it happens all of the time. These games are MUST win situations, you need to do what you need to do. Now if the team has three short stops or five catchers, there is an issue.
A good program develops all of their players, it is a business, they have to. And then they get caught with the draft thing, they need to have players ready to play and as I see, most freshman are not ready, no matter how great they were in HS. I am glad for the 15-16 pitchers carried on my son's team, he pitches in a regular rotation, less stress on his arm, why would I want him pitching every other game?
One more thing, it factors into the decision when choosing a school. You hear so many parents complaining their sons roster is too big, didn't they do their homework?
You cannot compare SEC baseball to JUCO. You are talking about winning your division title, winning your regional, winning the CWS. This translates into lots of money for the program, I am not talking thousands either. Yes, you will find the state universities have larger rosters, especially in a state like FL where teh state pays your tuition if you qualify. More ways to spread out teh 11.7.
I believe parents are told things, they only listen to what they want to hear. They believe their son was so dominate in HS, now he sits, they blame it on roster size. One needs to ask themsleves, can my pitcher as a freshman go up against a junior hitter with a 450 batting average? Or can my hitter go against a junior, senior pitcher with a 2.50 era, I think not in most cases. They will be eventually, but not the first year. As one webster put it to me, in HS your son is THE stud, now they are on a team with all studs, and the team that comes to play has all studs as well!
Last edited by TPM
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
My Motto:--no team ever has enough pitching--no team

We carry upwards of 14 arms on our travel team and that is just for a weekend of 4 to 6 games--true some weekends a few pitchers may get "short-changed" but we have not worn out arms.

The same with colleges--you never know what you will need in a weekend series and you have probably used a half dozen arm already in the two non conference games you played during the week

Unless you have coached with the ability to have two or three guys heating up in the bullpen you can never know the pelasure of having that ability

Better to have too many than too few !!!!
B Bee>1,000+ posts
buckeye fan, you've focused on a few (percieved) negatives

a few observations
I've seen a few guys go from a few innings as freshmen to Fri night starters as jrs

under your plan using conservative numbers about 1600 players would be out of a team to play on - granted some may have had a slim chance of getting meaningful time - but with your plan they'd have no chance

are you saying they'd be better off?? I'd like to hear ya explain it to them
Last edited by Bee>
buckeyefanbuckeyefan10+ posts
I'll attempt to answer all comments...

Tiger Paw Mom,

The big programs use so many pitchers because they can. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a pitcher taken out of a game after a walk instead of letting him battle his way out of a jam. Going to the CWS does not even earn a team enough money to pay for the regular season. Going to the CWS on a regular basis only ensures more players will want to attend that University because of the reputation. As for good programs developing all players that is absolutely not true. Some good programs do but I can name several in one state that are year in and year out power programs that do not develop all players because they have too many to work with. My argument isn't only about playing time, but playing time is a very key element to development. Throwing bullpens and hitting in the cage are great but playing is where the rubber hits the road.

TRHit and Bee,

On average, most college teams play 36-45 innings per week. If I have 12 healthy pitchers there is no way they would be overused. This is 3-4 innings per pitcher per week. The major leagues play 54 innings per week and they carry 12-13 pitchers. Take a look at the University of South Carolinas stats page. Only 11 pitchers have pitched more than 10 innings (in 31 total games). I'm not trying to pick on USC because I believe this is typical of top rated programs not the exception. If you look at their distribution of innings, 3 pitchers have the bulk of the work.

Finally, Bee...are you saying that a kid on the bottom of USCs roster wouldn't find a place to play! You're also assuming that every D1 team carrys over 30 players which is not the case. Obviously, there would be trickle down to some extent. Top notch D1 player would play at mid D1 program (and play), mid-D1 player would play at low D1 school and play. Low D1 player would play at DII school and so on. You're right, at some point some player may not be on a team but doesn't that happen at every level (from little league on up - assuming there are tryouts and cuts)?

All,
Saying that teams need rosters of 35 players with nearly 20 pitchers just doesn't add up to me. How can a larger roster be better for the player? The argument that you need 30-35 players to avoid overuse doesn't make sense because there are too many examples to the contrary (Major leagues - 25 players, JUCO's - fewer than 25 players, DII programs average 25 players). Does this mean that everyone that doesn't have at least 30 players on their roster is overusing them?

I'm actually surprised there is support for large rosters (over 30). If you buy my argument that player health won't be in jeopardy (with a smaller roster) then it's like saying you support larger classroom size (less indivual attention, less opportunity for development etc). How can this be a good thing?
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
buckeye fan

I respectfully disagree with you

A 20 man plus staff can be very quickly a 14 to 16 man staff because of arm problems, grades, disciplinary problems etc

Keep in mind also that many of these arems want to be where they are and do not wnat to be at the D-II or III levels or even JUCOS for that matter.

I would much rather have underused arms than OVERUSED arms--but then that is my philosophy and pitchers pitch for us had better buy into that philiosphy or play somewhere else
B Bee>1,000+ posts
by bucki "Obviously, there would be trickle down to some extent" WOW what an epiphany

I trust you are not an accountant, or maybe ya have a government job (a politican ?) - -

anyway 1600+ players (pretty conservative at 6 per program) would still be dis-placed somewhere, not from USC, but at programs anywhere from the top down - - why??? because you have a vision??

sounds like it may be a halucination!

go over the part again about how it helps the kids !!
Last edited by Bee>
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
On Clemson's team there are 16 pitchers, 3 are true freshman , 1 is a two way player, 2 of them are medical redshirts, the others are freshman redshirts (by their choice). I don't think it is enough. There are starters, relievers and closers, everyone has a job and they are used for all three if needed. I will say again, saw that last week, regular scheduled game was canceled and they had to double up on Sunday, used lots of pitchers and then struggled tuesday with not enough pitchers ready to pitch. There are 17 position players.

Going to the CWS in Div1 is the big payoff. That is the schools ultimate goal for their baseball program. That translates into dollars. I never said anything about them getting money for winning, but you figure it out.

Clemson plays 5 games a week, three of them conference. All players get a chance to play, some are just pinch hitters at times, needed in certain situations. Starters need a break. This is not pro ball where they get paid and if a player is needed called up from the ranks where they are developing talent. These kids have homework, tests and school.
At CU roster is 33, one of the reasons we liked the program, everyone is utilized. If a team has a roster of 60,simply don't go. I agree with getting in playing time to learn, but so many players are so hung up on where they want to go, they bring it on themselves. You ARE not going to play where the strength of your team is in Juniors that are studs and going to be drafted that year, or an experienced senior who is a multiple position player. If you were a caoch in one of the top divisions in the country, who would you play?
Last edited by TPM
buckeyefanbuckeyefan10+ posts
Bee,

Not sure what I did to deserve your sarcasm but if you really want to know my profession I am an Engineer (have been for over 20 years) with a Computer Science Degree. I also played college baseball.

I respectfully disagree with your idea that more players on a team results in more opportunities. If that were the case why not carry 40 or 50 or 60 players on your roster.

As for the benefits of a smaller roster...I'll repeat what I wrote in an earlier post. More individual instruction and the opportunity for more playing time.

Tiger Paw Mom,

I wasn't trying to pick on Clemson because clearly they are not overloaded with pitchers. But could you imagine having 5 or 6 more pitchers?

Also, I do agree with you that the player makes the choice to go there so they are culpable as well.
B Bee>1,000+ posts
buckeye - the sacasm was intended to gently induce you to rethink the il-logic of your position - ok so it didn't work Smile I'll persevere

your "buckeye plan" is aimed at fixing something that only YOU think needs fixed, AND - to fix it you will punish those you are trying to help (hence my reference to government/politician)

let me point out that players were not conscripted - they voluntarily WANT to be there, and MANY are paying a $ignificant amount to do so

there are roughly 1200 Div I, II, & III NCAA member schools - they don't all have baseball, but we'll also include NCCAA and NAIA schools as there rosters will be affected by players from other programs cut by your "buckeye plan"

so anyway I'll use 1000 programs as a conservative #
I'll also say (conservativly) that each team cuts 4 players

you dodged my original question so I'll try again

what happens to the now 4000 players who were on a team before your "buckeye plan" - whom now have been released???

or am I missing something??
Last edited by Bee>
buckeyefanbuckeyefan10+ posts
Bee,

I didn't think I dodged your question because I answered it in an earlier post. I think your number of players is far too high because not all programs carry more than 25 players and some even carry less. Anyways, yes some players (probably at the lowest levels would not be playing) and many more players would actually be playing, contributing and developing their skills in game competition.

I think maybe we should just agree to disagree. I really do want what's best for the players and I expect coaches to develop the guys they have.

I've probably said enough on the subject so I'll just leave it alone and move on!

I've enjoyed the discussion!
jemazjemaz1,000+ posts
Buckeye:

I actually very much agree with what you have said and think you have said it very clearly and very effectively. If someone doesn't get your point, they probably just don't want to. It is absurd the number of players on college baseball roster, especially in the fall. The problem, of course, comes in the initial recruitment, where more appears to be better than less and what goes awry is player development. If there are enough present, the thinking seems to be, enough will be good enough to field a competitive team. Of course the problem is not limited college baseball. Football probably is worse.

Some of these pitchers throw so little that they have essentially retired from the game post high school.
Last edited by jemaz
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Buckeye,
I know you were not talking about Clemson specifically. The point I was making was that their roster size, how they develop players was a big factor. The player has a choice and I agree somewhat with Bee>. Actually I am impressed with the amount of freshman out there playing this year all over the country, 2004 was a very talented class. Lots of upperclassman have lots of competition. JMO.

Could I imagine 5 or 6 more pitchers? Maybe, I do feel you can never have enough. But if the coach plays the same 4 or 5, yes then that is too much. If the coach uses all of them in a rotation of start, relief, close, no. I am not one to say, I only know what worked for us.

But your post is a good example of why it is better to play for a smaller D1 than a larger one. If I didn't think my son would play as a freshman this is what we would have done. Sent him to a smaller D1 that plays against bigger D1 in non conference games. Consider a JUCO as a chance to play (by the way some of their rosters are HUGE), and get a chance to transfer later on.
I feel that you are blaming coaches. I blame economics. It is so expensive to send your child to college. If a parent can send their son to play at a state funded university for less than to play out of state, they ARE going to do it, with the hopes that their son will play, maybe, despite a large roster, because their son was "the bomb" in HS. The parent that sends their son to a smaller out of state program for a chance to play and pays more, then I think they are the wiser of the two.
However, in the long run, they are going to college for an education and that should be the first consideration. For us, our son being in a classroom with 26-30 students rather than 400 was a big reason we did not prefer a state school. 16,00 enrollemnt vs. 40,000. All things must be considered.
Last edited by TPM
jemazjemaz1,000+ posts
TPM:

I agree with your comments in regard to education and I also agree that Clemson is an outstanding university with an outstanding baseball program. Perhaps I misread your post, but I will point out that Clemson is the land grant institution in South Carolina and is very much a state university, a fact of which it is very proud and should be. Also, there are more than a few classes at Clemson with more than 100 students, but they are not predominant and they are well staged with every opporunity for learning to occur. I will also add that in the U.S. News and World Report rankings of top colleges and universities, the University of Florida is ranked in a tie for 16th among public national universities. Clemson is ranked 32nd (also very good) in a tie with Virginia Tech and a couple of others. Florida, too, has outstanding schools with outstanding baseball progams with too many players as compared with the ideal (as is the case at Clemson and nearly every other school, certainly in the ACC).
Last edited by jemaz
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Jemaz,
Ahhh you have done your homework. Clemson is a state university, take a look at their roster, you will not find many in state players. They have been subject to discussion of the unfairness of this for state players, but they do not overload roster by taking state players and then picking and choosing who will be the best player. It works for them, it works for my son.
They do have larger classes that are lecture classes, but the majority of my son's classes are less than 50, one or two being 28, lower staff to pupil ratio. Of course, teh atheletic advisor works very hard at getting them into these classes.
UF has a fine program for baseball and for adegree. However, too large for my son (that is how he felt). He could have attended for nothing between his state money and baseball scholarship, and it was very tempting, an SEC school, but the smaller class sizes and roster were more to his liking.
I understand Buckeye's point of view, however, one must remember that it is about CHOICE, hopefully the right one for each player and family. Once you make that choice, one must accept the situation, if not happy make a change. It happens all of the time and it saddens me that players are not getting due playing time, however when one sets foot on the field at the top division schools in the country, this happens.
Last edited by TPM
D Dibble1,000+ posts
Sorry any college who has to carry 22 pitchers cant coach or recruit a bit. They just want to get everyone there during the fall for a big tryout and see who can play. Players with any brains should transfer to where they are gonna play and the college has money in them.

Was on a NCAA SUMMER League team started out with 13 pitchers for 45 games in 2 months. 13 pitchers were too much, a couple of pitchers left for various reasons,leaving the team with 9 pitchers, everyone got plenty of innings everyone was happy. 5 of the 9 are in pro ball now
D Dibble1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Dibble:
Sorry any college who has to carry 22 pitchers cant coach or recruit a bit. They just want to get everyone there during the fall for a big tryout and see who can play. Players with any brains should transfer to where they are gonna play and the college has money in them.

Was on a NCAA SUMMER League team started out with 13 pitchers for 45 games in 2 months. 13 pitchers were too much, a couple of pitchers left for various reasons,leaving the team with 9 pitchers, everyone got plenty of innings everyone was happy. 5 of the 9 are in pro ball now



and Clemson cut a pitcher who threw 93 mph, was offered a minor league contract on the spot. transfer to a nationallly ranked Div 2 team threw 94 mph drafted in 16 rd, signed and now in the midwest league.
FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
My son is in his third year of the SEC. While he is currently a catcher, he used to be a weekend starting pitcher last year so I am kinda aware of where pitchers/position players fit in the roster. I too used to think the larger roster size was a real negative for players. I have changed a little and I have come to the conclusion that playing time is directly proportional to talent and desire. This is true at all divisions and all conferences no matter how many players are on the roster. You can blame lack of playing time and development on the program but the player has the ultimate responsibility for his future. Most players come into the programs with dreams and high hopes which is the way it should be. If expectations don’t materialize we tend to look for someone or something to lay the blame. I doubt that many coaches knowingly mislead players about opportunities and their role when they join the team. Understand the opportunity to pitch and actually pitching are miles apart. Parents and players HAVE to understand where their son fits in BEFORE they sign on the line. Like TPM said, Many are guilty of selective hearing during the recruitment.
We parents are also a little confused about the “goals” of college programs. The goal is not to develop players but to develop the program. Sure one of the by-products of developing a college program will be some player development but putting your best nine on the field and maximizing your pitching staff is number one! If benching a player is in the best interest of a college program then scoot over because that player will be benched.
Lets not compare MLB to college baseball when it comes to roster size…professional teams have huge rosters...the minors!
I think some college parents tend to apply parks and recreation philosophies to college baseball and they become confused when their son is passed over. Things change when you play college baseball. Some changes are good and some are not. Players seem to know and understand this much better than the parents.
Fungo
jemazjemaz1,000+ posts
Fungo:

While I agree with most of what you have said, I also believe that the best way to develop the best program that wins at the highest levels is to fully develop the players on hand. What is the right number? I don't know. 30 probably is in the range. 25 would be great in my view, but I understand 30. 35 is getting high and beyond that, forget it. And while I understand the purpose of college baseball, I believe that obligations run both ways. A player commits his full talents and efforts to a school and the baseball program commits itself toward helping the player develop. Both should benefit.

Unfortunately, there are great programs that do it by sheer numbers (and they can because of reputation and results) rather than the way I espouse. I do agree, however, that players ought to do their homework before they sign and jump in only with eyes wide open. And, while I don't advocate transfers except in special situations, I also understand that a player of legitimate talent can be a great success on the field at one school and an afterthought at another -- even when both schools are at the same level. It is a very complicated and unpredictable world in college baseball, or any other competitive athletic situation for that matter. As I noted earlier, I have seen some potentially top-flight pitchers in particular never get on the field beyond the fall and many of those same players were better when they entered school than when they left.

And, by the way, Tiger Mom, it is not that I have done my homework on Clemson, it's that just a long time ago I was a sports writer and had the opportunity to cover many events in Tiger Country. I've had a lot of great friends in many different capacities at Clemson. You son indeed has a wonderful opportunity at a wonderful school, which has year after year had great success in what I regard as the greatest conference of them all for many, many reasons.
Last edited by jemaz

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